Game of Thrones Final Season **SPOILER WARNING**

[Thanatos 2,847]

I'm with Razor that was a godawful episode. One of the worst of the series, IMO, given the expectations I had coming into it. All this buildup and now Cersei is the big baddie? And all the main characters just plot armor their way to living? Cmon man. Not a single main character died. Lyanna, Jorah, and Theon were the biggest and they're B-list at best. Now if any major character dies going after Cersei, itll feel like "Wow you survived a horde of undead and an undead dragon and yet you died to Cersei? So sad." Sam didn't die despite getting piled on like five times. Jaime and Brienne were cut off multiple times- just fine. If Tyrion and Sansa died defending the others, that would be something at least. They build up the NK for eight seasons and he dies because Arya jumps over a group if wights and stabs him? Really? Without him swinging his sword one time? And after they flat out told us she was going to with Melisandre talking to her?

Not even really interested in the last three episodes unless there is a gigantic plot twist like Bran's arm being touched means he's turning into the new NK or something. This is just generic fantasy bullcrap now. Do we really think Cersei is going to win? Of course not. 

Game of Thrones has officially lost it.

Boo this series for pulling a Mass Effect, and boo the writers for ruining a great show with a godawful end to the main bad guy for the entire series.

Pros: Music was amazing, fight scenes were well-done outside of every major character having plot armor. The buildup to Arya actually killing NK was intense along with the music, just think it was a rushed and lazy way to end the big bad guy.

Lyanna was epicly bad-ass, a great way for her to go out. Wish some of the major characters had gotten similar send-offs here.

Edited April 30, 2019 by Thanatos

[BJORN 679]

Lighting was an easy way to save money on the battle scenes, I bet. Because we needed the overly produced, cheesefest that was Dany & Jon's dragon ride together earlier in the season.

The showrunners even said in the recap that battle scenes are boring.. uh what????

Pretty anticlimactic, Jorah sacrificing himself for Dany was a given. NK & his lieutenants did nothing. No showdown, nothing. Doesn't seem like it followed Arya's storyline at all either as her talents weren't even used. It was a surprise, I'll give them that.

I was hoping we would also get some dialogue between Bran and the NK at the end. Lastly, wtf was Bran doing the entire time?

[Favre4Ever+ 4,476]

49 minutes ago, Thanatos said:

I'm with Razor that was a godawful episode. The worst one of the series, IMO, given the expectations I had coming into it. All this buildup and now Cersei is the big baddie? And all the main characters just plot armor their way to living? Cmon man. Not a single main character died. Lyanna, Jorah, and Theon were the biggest and they're B-list at best. Sam didn't die despite getting piled on like five times. Jaime and Brienne were cut off multiple times- just fine. If Tyrion and Sansa died defending the others, that would be something at least. They build up the NK for eight seasons and he dies because Arya jumps over a group if wights and stabs him? Really? Without him swinging his sword one time? And after they flat out told us she was going to with Melisandre talking to her?

Not even really interested in the last three episodes unless there is a gigantic plot twist like Bran's arm being touched means he's turning into the new NK or something. This is just generic fantasy bullcrap now. Do we really think Cersei is going to win? Of course not. 

Game of Thrones has officially lost it.

Boo this series for pulling a Mass Effect, and boo the writers for ruining a great show with a godawful end to the main bad guy for the entire series.

Your salty tears taste so delicious. 

Even if you didn't like it, saying you aren't interested in the final 3 episodes? WTF. lmao. I hope you stick by that and don't watch. Main characters dying by the undead would have been a lot less meaningful, at least in my opinion. The biggest thing these characters have are their interactions and relationships with other characters. You want Jamie to die to a wight? Really? Fuck off. LMAO. That is some of the dumbest shit I have ever heard... Also, to play it off as NK dying because Arya just jumps over a bunch of Wights, White Walkers, etc and stabbing him is extremely simplified. It required that exact moment... that timing... Mel to snap Arya back on track... Theon to sacrifice himself... If all that and more doesn't happen exactly... Bran is turned and everyone is fucked forever. Everyone and everything has a purpose. And Arya not only stabbed the NK put pierced him exactly where the children did to turn him originally. 

Cersei isn't the big bad anyway. This isn't the first time this has happened... It's a never-ending cycle perpetuated by... whoever, Old Gods or Children of the Forest.. Whoever you want to blame. I don't think it is some random coincidence that the walkers have been leaving spirals everywhere.  If you think Cersei is the ultimate big bad... You haven't been paying attention. I think the endings in the show and book will differ quite a bit until the very very end. All this stuff we are watching now is writer decision. George did tell them how he plans to end the series though in general so we will see the same thing there (or close). I have no idea, but I wouldn't be shocked to have the ending tease the beginning of the next cycle.

[Thanatos 2,847]

1 hour ago, DalaiLama4Ever said:

Your salty tears taste so delicious. 

Even if you didn't like it, saying you aren't interested in the final 3 episodes? WTF. lmao. I hope you stick by that and don't watch. Main characters dying by the undead would have been a lot less meaningful, at least in my opinion. The biggest thing these characters have are their interactions and relationships with other characters. You want Jamie to die to a wight? Really? Fuck off. LMAO. That is some of the dumbest shit I have ever heard... Also, to play it off as NK dying because Arya just jumps over a bunch of Wights, White Walkers, etc and stabbing him is extremely simplified. It required that exact moment... that timing... Mel to snap Arya back on track... Theon to sacrifice himself... If all that and more doesn't happen exactly... Bran is turned and everyone is fucked forever. Everyone and everything has a purpose. And Arya not only stabbed the NK put pierced him exactly where the children did to turn him originally. 

Cersei isn't the big bad anyway. This isn't the first time this has happened... It's a never-ending cycle perpetuated by... whoever, Old Gods or Children of the Forest.. Whoever you want to blame. I don't think it is some random coincidence that the walkers have been leaving spirals everywhere.  If you think Cersei is the ultimate big bad... You haven't been paying attention. I think the endings in the show and book will differ quite a bit until the very very end. All this stuff we are watching now is writer decision. George did tell them how he plans to end the series though in general so we will see the same thing there (or close). I have no idea, but I wouldn't be shocked to have the ending tease the beginning of the next cycle.

There's quite a few people who are extremely unsatisfied with the NK dying like that, not just me. (Glad you decided it was worth the personal attacks, though.)  It's nothing but a generic fantastic show this season. Bran being killed does literally nothing to affect Westeros. First of all, Bran has done next to nothing this season. Secondly, he already told Tyrion what he needed to know, we were very clearly shown that in the fireside chat they had in episode 2. Theon charging the NK buys, what, three seconds? If they needed him to buy time they could have told him that, he could have bought a lot more. 

I didn't want Jaime to die to a wight, way to put words in my mouth and miss the point, as per usual. My point is that the main characters had plot armor a hundred tons thick in this episode, and its very very unlike Game of Thrones. They kept teasing deaths and then not happening. It's just poor writing. It's akin, IMO, to the difference between good and bad horror. Sure, jump-scares can be fine, but if you rely on them, they lose their luster. Constantly teasing death scenes just made us go, "We know no one is going to die, let's get on with it."

Again re:missing the point: Arya jumping over the wights. It's not that I was trying to simplify what happened- though that is, in fact, what happened- its more that its just silly. The official explanation is that it was so dark they didn't see her. Uh huh. 

I have no qualms with the quality of the shoot- thought it was fantastic, as well as the music, though the episode was a bit dark, I think that was intentional. It's simply the plot-line that is so bland and generic it might as well be fantasy 101, and it's just damn disappointing after all that build-up. 

This is not a never-ending cycle, not sure where you're getting that information from. The Night King was, i believe, created by the Children of the Forest, you are correct there. But this is only the second time he has invaded. Azor Ahai stopped him- but did not kill him- the first time. This is only the second time the Night King has come South. The Wall has never before been breached- it was built in response to the first invasion by the NK. The spirals are clearly explained already, it has nothing to do with a cycle. It's a symbol of the Weirwood, which is where the NK was first created. 

If this was just some show, then so be it. Game of Thrones used to have much better storytelling, so I tend to have higher expectations than that episode.

Also, I don't think the show and the books- if he ever finishes them- will have the same ending at all. I think GRRM will use the books to explore an alternate ending, what would even be the point if they were similar? For starters, it's already heavily hinted in the books, Jon warged into Ghost to avoid death instead of simply being raised by Melisandre.

We do have one possible major twist. The actor for the Night King tweeted out that whatever the Night King touches, he can eventually control, and he specifically pointed out that he had touched Bran. (And now Arya, come to think of it.) 

Obviously I will watch the last three episodes A) because I watch them with my gf and it was one of the first things we did when we started dating was getting her into it and B) I have invested entirely too much into this series not to see how it ends, no matter how shitty an end it is.

Edited April 30, 2019 by Thanatos

[Favre4Ever+ 4,476]

9 hours ago, Thanatos said:

There's quite a few people who are extremely unsatisfied with the NK dying like that, not just me. (Glad you decided it was worth the personal attacks, though.)  It's nothing but a generic fantastic show this season. Bran being killed does literally nothing to affect Westeros. First of all, Bran has done next to nothing this season. Secondly, he already told Tyrion what he needed to know, we were very clearly shown that in the fireside chat they had in episode 2. Theon charging the NK buys, what, three seconds? If they needed him to buy time they could have told him that, he could have bought a lot more. 

I didn't want Jaime to die to a wight, way to put words in my mouth and miss the point, as per usual. My point is that the main characters had plot armor a hundred tons thick in this episode, and its very very unlike Game of Thrones. They kept teasing deaths and then not happening. It's just poor writing. It's akin, IMO, to the difference between good and bad horror. Sure, jump-scares can be fine, but if you rely on them, they lose their luster. Constantly teasing death scenes just made us go, "We know no one is going to die, let's get on with it."

Again re:missing the point: Arya jumping over the wights. It's not that I was trying to simplify what happened- though that is, in fact, what happened- its more that its just silly. The official explanation is that it was so dark they didn't see her. Uh huh. 

I have no qualms with the quality of the shoot- thought it was fantastic, as well as the music, though the episode was a bit dark, I think that was intentional. It's simply the plot-line that is so bland and generic it might as well be fantasy 101, and it's just damn disappointing after all that build-up. 

This is not a never-ending cycle, not sure where you're getting that information from. The Night King was, i believe, created by the Children of the Forest, you are correct there. But this is only the second time he has invaded. Azor Ahai stopped him- but did not kill him- the first time. This is only the second time the Night King has come South. The Wall has never before been breached- it was built in response to the first invasion by the NK. The spirals are clearly explained already, it has nothing to do with a cycle. It's a symbol of the Weirwood, which is where the NK was first created. 

If this was just some show, then so be it. Game of Thrones used to have much better storytelling, so I tend to have higher expectations than that episode.

Also, I don't think the show and the books- if he ever finishes them- will have the same ending at all. I think GRRM will use the books to explore an alternate ending, what would even be the point if they were similar? For starters, it's already heavily hinted in the books, Jon warged into Ghost to avoid death instead of simply being raised by Melisandre.

We do have one possible major twist. The actor for the Night King tweeted out that whatever the Night King touches, he can eventually control, and he specifically pointed out that he had touched Bran. (And now Arya, come to think of it.) 

Obviously I will watch the last three episodes A) because I watch them with my gf and it was one of the first things we did when we started dating was getting her into it and B) I have invested entirely too much into this series not to see how it ends, no matter how shitty an end it is.

I don't think "everyone else didn't like it either" is a valid defense. Original thought is always welcome. Also, personal attack? Wtf... lmao. I said your tears were delicious (obviously facetious and not real as I don't think you actually cried nor would I be drinking said hypothetical tears). And I said that the yearning for a major character to die by a Wight was dumb -- which it is. Makes no sense to want that.  Those aren't personal attacks.  Kappa. You continually saying that I "don't get" your points are way more insulting than anything I said above. It implies my lack of intelligence and lack of an ability to comprehend the things you are saying. Extremely condescending. lol. Not that I am complaining... I don't care and don't take our conversation about a TV show personally. Just throwing that out there.

Those three seconds mattered though. And Theon did buy time, a lot of it. Did you see how many wights he killed? Dude was a MACHINE. But at that point, there was not much else to do. He was the last alive... Bran tells him what he needs to hear to come to terms with his own death and make him feel redeemed. You saying that Bran should have just told him to "buy more time" completely contradicts, IMO, what you wanted from the rest of the episode. And saying Bran hasn't done anything, I believe shows a bit of a lack of understanding for the character. Not saying that's bad or dumb and I don't mean that in an insulting way at all.  Perhaps that's just a writing error, but Bran's important to the NK, I feel was pretty plainly explained. Bran sees the MOFOing future... the three eyed raven is an integral part of the story, which is why the NK has been chasing Bran and his predecessor. That can't be understated, I don't think.

Again, when I say Jamie I am not talking about just Jamie. Any major character you want to talk about, that statement applies to. It's a direct assault on your "plot armor" complaint. I don't want ANY major character dying to wights or the NK or any of his White Walkers. That would be such a colossal waste. As I explained in my previous post, we love this show because of the characters... because of how they interact with the world and how they interact with other characters. I want to see these characters continue to interact and die (if so destined) because of those interactions. 

I want to see Jamie and Tyrion see Cersei again. I want to see Brienne with Jamie when that happens. I want to see stupid Sam facing Dany and the rest of the realm to defend Jon's heritage. I want to see Gendry and Arya interact again before (if) either of them kick the bucket. I want to see The Hound face Zombie Mountain. Etc etc etc for every character that survived. I agree that there were more "less important" characters to survive than I expected when the night started. But we still got a lot of deaths. Having many more of those deaths, especially for characters that we expect to die, I think would have cheapened the deaths of those who we did lose. That's just my opinion, obviously,... But if you expect and don't care if these sub-characters die... Then their death isn't going to have much impact on you to start with and thus them living or not is totally inconsequential. That may be different when the book comes out as George can go more in depth and span the battle over like 50 chapters... but for the show and for the time allotted -- it was the right call. 

The Whites and NK have always been a threat for sure. But they almost represent an environmental threat. Let's not forget that the NK was created, originally, because of the threat the first men posed. People... humans... are the original threat. It's the chicken and the egg argument. First Men / humans came before the NK, they are the originators of the hatred, evil, etc. It probably isn't a popular take, but I've always seen the Whites as a "secondary" threat. Obviously it's an immense threat regardless, and I am not trying to undermine or undersell the power of the NK... But I always figured that the NK and his army would be dealt with and resolved before the war for the Iron Throne. The conflicts that characters have with themselves and each other have always (again, in my mind) been far more significant than the conflict, as written, with the army of the dead. 

You have a group of undead that have significantly less interaction with all of our human characters... Who don't speak but through their actions. Who up until just recently exist only far beyond the wall away from the "real" central show plot. Yet, we expected that to be the greater and more powerful narrative than the fight for the Iron Throne and closing the narratives internally amongst these other human characters? I don't buy that. That's a very weak train of thought, in my opinion.

Is there legit proof that there has only been one Night King? I mean, don't get me wrong.. Mine is just a theory, my thoughts on how this series "ends" in a cruel way -- with the restarting of a cycle with a new NK(s). But I haven't read anything to directly disprove it either. Doesn't make it right, but that's the fun of theories and speculation. The Children create the Night King (maybe more at the same time?) to fight off the first men... Impasse happens.. long peaceful period where Whites exist but we don't know what is going on.. IIRC, this period lasts for thousands of years. Then Children lose control of them, they go berserk and the Children team up with First Men during the Long Night / War for the Dawn. Heck, maybe multiple NKs existed and the rest died, and this one was indeed the end. idk, not gonna pretend to know. But if you have actual canon/facts to disprove it, hit me up with it -- i'd like to read it and continue building theories from there. 

Also, showrunners have come out and directly said the spirals don't mean one thing. So, if you have proof that that is incorrect and it's completely meaningless, please send that link too. 

I don't know what this "official" explanation is and haven't read / watched it. But I still think that's too simple. The NK knows what goes on. He can see the future as some type of ... "blue"seer? Can't he? He can sense time shifts and whatnot, just like Bran. Or at least I feel that that is implied. Either that or he is just an extremely gifted tactical mind, idk. lol -- but being that he can sense Bran in his visions (ie, when he marks Bran) I am going with the former. He knows what is happening and what is going to happen. He and his army are constantly one step ahead of the army of the living. This doesn't mean he is aware of EVERY SINGLE SMALL DETAIL (because I am sure you will try arguing this point, lol) but gets a sense of everything in general. 

That's why Mel talking to Arya was so important. That conversation... Mel quoted Syrio Forel to get Arya to change the course of history. She wasn't planning to assassinate the NK from the beginning. It's something that changed in the blink of an eye. It's something the NK did not and could not foresee. He was so set on his own plan, for the future that he saw... So preoccupied with getting to Bran and turning him that that QB option by Arya caught him off guard. I also liked the sudden breeze right before it happens, when all the wights / walkers / NK realize something changed. I am not saying this was intentional, but that breeze reminded me of the "as the wind blows" idiom. Just symbolic for change, acting in the moment, etc... They realize this change in the moment, which is why the NK has to turn quickly and grab Arya out of the air. He didn't foresee this set of events, he had to act in the moment... which is what gives Arya the upperhand and her quick thinking.That's why I don't believe that it's weak plot... It totally 100% makes sense, at least in my feeble brain. lol. 

More theory-crafting though --And who knows if obsidian and valyrian steel anywhere else on his body has the same effect as it does on wights. Fire works on them, not on the NK. I don't think it is far-fetched to think that his only weakness is being stuck in that one place that Arya managed to get him (where the Children stabbed him with dragon glass to turn him originally). Maybe not... that's just more theory crafting on my part as I said. I think it would have been awesome if Jon actually got to the NK, was able to get one swing off but it DIDNT hurt / kill him instantly before he goes off to find bran. Jon chops of his arm or something but it grows back or... it bounces off or whatever else.

The intricacies of how that whole plot developed is GREATLY GREATLY being underappreciated and acknowledged by yourself and others I have talked with that have similar complaints about the episode.

As I said, I don't think the stuff in the middle will be the same. George told the showrunners generally how he envisioned the VERY end, who sits on the Iron Throne, etc. He hasn't / hadn't even written a lot of what we've seen when it was written by the show. I 100% expect A LOT of changes and differences. As you alluded to, we've already seen many diverting paths from the books. Catelyn Stark / Stoneheart is still in play in the books... lol. The way her and Brienne interact is so immensely different 00 as just another example. 

Could he still see fan reaction and change the very end? Sure... but we will never know that with 100% certainty. Jon warging into Ghost to not die is definitely what I am calling, "stuff in the middle". When I say very end.. I mean very very end.

You keep referencing how generic this story line has become. Would you mind being more specific about how? I find that an interesting argument, considering that just the day before you were speculating the NK was in King's Landing. You didn't see this coming (and that isn't an insult, very few people did see this and the NKs end coming in this fashion). Yet... the story is generic? If it was so generic, I figure you (general sense for any viewer) could have better predicted this unfolding in this way.

I think fan expectations got the better of them this time. There are obviously things to nit pick and dislike. I am not asking for blind love and adoration. But at the same time, sit back and relax. If you (general sense of the word for a viewer, not Than specifically) are sitting there and get so upset about how "bad" it is... I think you might have just been spoiled by such a great and epic show.

edit:

Just from our discussions, it seems like you are underselling so many really important details about this episode. You have some valid complaints, but you aren't giving credit to the glue which is why I think you found this to be a poor narrative. Mel and Beric's role... Arya's development.. Bran's worth to the NK... The NK's abilities and what led to his (seemingly) downfall... The timing of everything... It's all really really important. Mel could've walked into Wintefell and immediately found Arya and told her that she has to kill the NK. It didn't happen that way... and it didn't happen that way for a reason. Again, these details are integral to the narrative. And it's these details you are choosing to ignore and/or disregard. I think that's where the disconnect is. Which is fine, btw... Thinking the same gets boring, ha. Conversations like these are way better than just agreeing. haha.

 

edit 2:

Oh and I feel it is important to say that that disconnect goes both ways. The things you have voiced a real concern about just aren't important to me. While I don't agree with your "plot armor" argument, I understand it... I get what you're saying. Just in my mind, as I have sort of explained above and in previous posts. I was and am okay with major characters not dying and also okay with other sub-characters not dying. I don't think it comes down to plot armor, GoT has proven in the past it doesn't really give a fuck about that. And the series is literally ending in 3 episodes. Would it be more realistic for the group to go back and retreat to the crypts instead of like 5 of them fighting off thousands of undead alone? Sure. I don't disagree. But being that I am okay with them meeting their end (or not meeting their end at all), I just don't really care. To me personally, that's just really unimportant. What I find important are things written above. That just highlights the difference in opinion. Again, nothing right or wrong about that. I just wanted to make an example of how that goes both ways. 

What we each see as important or not important is blatantly and obviously different.

Edited April 30, 2019 by DalaiLama4Ever

[Thanatos 2,847]

The people I was talking to during and before the episode, we did mention that the NK could die right here, we simply hoped it was not the case because it would be such a dumb end to the overarching evil. I flat out said to my girlfriend after we spent a ton of time following Arya that "If this comes down to Arya sneak-attacking the Night King from behind, I am going to be very disappointed." We don't generally predict a generic fantasy option because GoT has- up until this point- not been generic fantasy.

I am okay with the NK being at Winterfell. I am even okay with him dying in this episode. Just not like that. It reeks of lazy plot and storytelling. They didn't know how to end it, IMO.

As Bjorn and I said already, I grant you its a surprise that he died there. It doesn't mean it's good storytelling. If Jaime were to die of the flu inbetween episodes, that would be a surprise. It would also be shit. Just because people don't see it coming doesn't make it a good thing.

There is evidence the NK is the first, because of what happened to Benjon Stark. The Children of the Forest specifically told him that they had never attempted what they did to Benjon since it backfired on them the very first time they tried it- which resulted in the NK. But over the eons since, they had perfected the technique and so were able to save Benjon's mind. There's nothing to indicate they are lying, though I suppose that's a possibility. It would just kinda come out of nowhere.

Jon has been saying all along about how it doesn't matter who sits on the Throne because of the attack of the dead, and now they're just some small northern threat. Cersei was absolutely right to just sit there and wait. 

I can answer some more in here, but I have to go to work for now.

[seanbrock 1,684]

Idk, I have mixed feelings. One gripe I have is how dirty the show has done Tyrion. We also didn't learn anything about who the Knight King is. I think his motivation and just him as a character has been a massive let down. I'm a lot more salty about that than I am how he died. I think the show runners had way too much of a hard on for Arya. Don't get me wrong, I love her character but idk, why not give Jon the Viscerion kill? I think by extension I'm very disappointed in how little we have learned about the 3 eyed Raven/bran. The last two seasons were just completely lacking the depth of the rest of the show. I think I'm still enjoying I because of the quality of the production and the actors portraying the characters we love but I'm with Than. This show has gotten so lazy. 

[SteVo+ 3,702]

I thought it was a great episode, in my top 10 all-time and definitely the best big battle episode (Hardhome knocked down to #2).

The action was very sequential and they managed to organize the chaos perfectly. Disagree with everyone who said the episode was too dark or the action too confusing (with the exception of the dragon fights--I couldn't tell who was who). Music was on point from start to finish. Jorah, Theon, Lyanna, Edd, Beric, and Melisandre all have satisfying ends to their arcs. And Arya killing the Night King was 10/10 perfect, an all-time great moment for the series.

The only part I didn't care for was Jon's final moments. He takes too long to get around Viserion and finally decides to...scream at him? Wtf Jon.

There are definitely some things I'd like more of, but the last 3 episodes can solve them. It might be a bummer that the army of the dead is gone, but this is Game of Thrones. Like it or not, it's always been about people, about power. It's always been about who sits on that Iron Throne. And there's plenty of intrigue left. We've got Cleganebowl for sure, intrigue with all 3 Lannisters, Jon's claim to the Throne, Bran's new role as the Three-Eyed Raven, etc.

[seanbrock 1,684]

So Varys can definitely help Arya sneak into the red keep. She's a faceless assassin. Why don't they just assassinate Cersei? Bam, war over. The only people that could legitimately assume the throne are the only Targaryens, Lannisters or Boratheon and seeing as how they're all on the same team. 

[Thanatos 2,847]

Dany has two dragons. The idea that Cersei could actually beat that is silly.  We've already established back in S7 that Dany could take the city 100% with ease, she just wants to avoid civilian casualties. Or rather, Tyrion convinced her to avoid them. The only thing Cersei can do is lure them into the city under false pretences- and they're idiots if they fall for that after her lies about helping them- and then blow up the whole damn city with the wildfire the mad king left.

[SteVo+ 3,702]

How awesome would it be if they defeated the Army of the Dead just to have wildfire blow everyone to bits anyway? I've said before this might be the one show that could get away with an everybody-dies ending...

[Thanatos 2,847]

There is a sense of poetic justice if Jaime- who killed the Mad King to prevent him from destroying the city with wildfire- blows up the city with wildfire to destroy... Cersei. 

And therein lies the problem. Makes perfect sense if its to take out the Night King's armies. Makes entirely no sense to do it to defeat Cersei. Which means it would have to be Cersei herself doing it. Idk, it just feels like GoT threw the baby out with the bathwater here.

[Favre4Ever+ 4,476]

On 4/30/2019 at 6:57 PM, seanbrock said:

Idk, I have mixed feelings. One gripe I have is how dirty the show has done Tyrion. We also didn't learn anything about who the Knight King is. I think his motivation and just him as a character has been a massive let down. I'm a lot more salty about that than I am how he died. I think the show runners had way too much of a hard on for Arya. Don't get me wrong, I love her character but idk, why not give Jon the Viscerion kill? I think by extension I'm very disappointed in how little we have learned about the 3 eyed Raven/bran. The last two seasons were just completely lacking the depth of the rest of the show. I think I'm still enjoying I because of the quality of the production and the actors portraying the characters we love but I'm with Than. This show has gotten so lazy. 

I think it would be kinda cool to know more about the Night King, but idk how consequential all that would be. Plus, as I was alluding to earlier.. The undead are not the end game here. With the way that story arc ended, I don't see a ton of reason to go really in depth on who it is/was or its purpose. Again, it would be kinda cool side story to hit up in the books... but for the show and what time we have left (even looking back at the entire series) it just doesn't seem very necessary to me. 

3 hours ago, SteVo said:

I thought it was a great episode, in my top 10 all-time and definitely the best big battle episode (Hardhome knocked down to #2).

The action was very sequential and they managed to organize the chaos perfectly. Disagree with everyone who said the episode was too dark or the action too confusing (with the exception of the dragon fights--I couldn't tell who was who). Music was on point from start to finish. Jorah, Theon, Lyanna, Edd, Beric, and Melisandre all have satisfying ends to their arcs. And Arya killing the Night King was 10/10 perfect, an all-time great moment for the series.

The only part I didn't care for was Jon's final moments. He takes too long to get around Viserion and finally decides to...scream at him? Wtf Jon.

There are definitely some things I'd like more of, but the last 3 episodes can solve them. It might be a bummer that the army of the dead is gone, but this is Game of Thrones. Like it or not, it's always been about people, about power. It's always been about who sits on that Iron Throne. And there's plenty of intrigue left. We've got Cleganebowl for sure, intrigue with all 3 Lannisters, Jon's claim to the Throne, Bran's new role as the Three-Eyed Raven, etc.

I've found an unlikely ally amidst all this chaos.

1 hour ago, Thanatos said:

Dany has two dragons. The idea that Cersei could actually beat that is silly.  We've already established back in S7 that Dany could take the city 100% with ease, she just wants to avoid civilian casualties. Or rather, Tyrion convinced her to avoid them. The only thing Cersei can do is lure them into the city under false pretences- and they're idiots if they fall for that after her lies about helping them- and then blow up the whole damn city with the wildfire the mad king left.

It isn't so much the destination as it is the journey. When all is said and done, I think the character interactions we get over the last episodes will long be the talk of the series. Naturally people will be interested on the "who" sits on the throne but the "how" will surely dominate the conversation post-series. IMO, Cersei almost assuredly losing / dying almost doesn't matter right now.. It's all gonna come down to how we get it. How Jamie, Tyrion, Jon... whoever takes her head. That will be some great TV right thurrrrrr! Can't wait! 

[seanbrock 1,684]

Nah, @DalaiLama4Ever They built up to wargs and 3 eyed Ravens and all this magical power. Did the whole thing with Sam going to the Citadel to learn about it. It appears neither Sam nor Bran, nor Tyrion could figure ANY of that shit out. They had basically all human knowledge in Westeros with all kinds of forbidden books and two of the smartest book nerds in the seven kingdoms and they did nothing. Hell, Missande is pretty fucking smart too. I wanted to know more. Not acceptable to me for them to leave it THAT open and just not explore that at all. If Cersei is the big bad, fine but I want closure on what was at least half the story of the whole thing. I'm not buying that the story has always been about politics because it's always been about religion, nature and mysticism/magic too. If they don't explore that aspect of the story it's a massive failure imo. 

They still have time to tie up loose ends. There could be more twists to come but if the last couple episodes are just about the Iron throne it will be a let down for me. I don't have a problem with the battle or how TNK got taken out. We just didn't get any closure. I think it was a big mistake to try and do that whole thing in one episode. I just don't feel we got any closure on that storyline. 

[Thanatos 2,847]

I think my main gripe with it is GoT has always been about not knowing who lives and dies. That's what sets it apart from something like the Lord of the Rings. Having your big bad, the one thing that can actually pose a threat to Dany and her dragons, die mid-way through the season removes that possibility. There is zero chance whatsoever Cersei wins this thing. So now its just an air of inevitability. Sure it will be cool to see, but the idea that the good guys could lose or that any of the big main characters will die is just not feasible any longer. Maybe Jaime/Tyrion taking out Cersei, but everyone else is safe on their way to a generic good guys win, Jon/Dany marry in all likelihood, ending.

Maybe Dany goes all mad queen and her and Jon have it out... but I seriously doubt it.

It's still good TV, don't get me wrong, but it just lost the sense of wondering whether or not the good guys will win in the end, because they just did.

Martin is trying to mimic the ending of LOTR with the attack on the Shire, IMO. He's long said that's one of his favorite scenes in the LOTR series.

Edited May 2, 2019 by Thanatos

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12 hours ago, seanbrock said:

Nah, @DalaiLama4Ever They built up to wargs and 3 eyed Ravens and all this magical power. Did the whole thing with Sam going to the Citadel to learn about it. It appears neither Sam nor Bran, nor Tyrion could figure ANY of that shit out. They had basically all human knowledge in Westeros with all kinds of forbidden books and two of the smartest book nerds in the seven kingdoms and they did nothing. Hell, Missande is pretty fucking smart too. I wanted to know more. Not acceptable to me for them to leave it THAT open and just not explore that at all. If Cersei is the big bad, fine but I want closure on what was at least half the story of the whole thing. I'm not buying that the story has always been about politics because it's always been about religion, nature and mysticism/magic too. If they don't explore that aspect of the story it's a massive failure imo. 

They still have time to tie up loose ends. There could be more twists to come but if the last couple episodes are just about the Iron throne it will be a let down for me. I don't have a problem with the battle or how TNK got taken out. We just didn't get any closure. I think it was a big mistake to try and do that whole thing in one episode. I just don't feel we got any closure on that storyline. 

I may be reading things wrong but who didn’t learn what? Sam has verified proof of Jons heritage - that’s pretty awesome. And I just fail to see why it matters that much. Maybe if there’s a line of NKs or a whole family was turned at once .... or only members of one family can be used, but that seems kind of unlikely at this point. 

IIRC the Citadel and Order of Maesters is hundreds of years old, Night King originates back thousands of years to the first humans to hit world. I understand that lots of stories get passed down and recorded through oration and all that but I don’t think it’s absurd that the name of the NK didn’t make into record at the citadel. Again, in the books maybe that’s different but for the show I think it’s totally fine to make that assumption.

I just don’t understand what closure you’re looking for. Especially considering that we don’t know much to start with. We know a bit about how he was created and the war for the dawn but that’s pretty much it. The closure, to me, is him dying and not taking over the world lol. 

We didn’t know anything about him , nothing to get closure on (IMO). 

Also, I disagree heavily that half the plot was walkers. I wouldn’t put it above 25%. Up until season 7 we got ... relatively little information and updates about the NK or the undead in general. 

Edit: 

Bottom line is ... we know everything about the NK that we need to know. Nothing else is needed. 

Maybe they explore it in the books or a prequel series or something.

Edited May 3, 2019 by DalaiLama4Ever

[seanbrock 1,684]

I wasn't talking about just the NK and the walkers. I was talking about the Children of The Forrest. The Old God's, the Lord of Light. Melisandre and just all the mysticism of the story. The reason why I love this story so much is it's depth. The scope of the world that Martin created and the characters within it. It's just not satisfactory to me that all of that shit is essentially meaningless because the NK is dead? I don't really care about how it happened, who done it or any of that. I just expected a lot more.

[SteVo+ 3,702]

Still three 80-minute episodes left. I'd be surprised if those are all about the politics/battle for the Throne without exploring the mythology at all.

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2 hours ago, seanbrock said:

I wasn't talking about just the NK and the walkers. I was talking about the Children of The Forrest. The Old God's, the Lord of Light. Melisandre and just all the mysticism of the story. The reason why I love this story so much is it's depth. The scope of the world that Martin created and the characters within it. It's just not satisfactory to me that all of that shit is essentially meaningless because the NK is dead? I don't really care about how it happened, who done it or any of that. I just expected a lot more.

Why is all that pointless? Those things all exist in their own ways, we know about them and some details a long with it. I don't think it should be expected to get encyclopedia readings during the episodes, though. We get bits and pieces as we go along and as we unravel new twists. Those things / entities / people all have vast stories and backgrounds of their own. This isn't wholly their story... their stories simply intertwine with the one Martin is telling here. What kind of things do you want to know, exactly? Like full out origins? The Children, the Old Gods, etc all have histories spanning thousands of years. There's just no way to cover ALL that material in the TV show. The Lord of Light is mostly worshiped over in Essos, IIRC. We learn about him through a few very devout followers. I just don't see how we get a full Lord of Light history and cram it into GoT. 

Through the books and other writings of his, there is actually a good chunk of stuff to learn and available. Probably right up your alley, you just gotta go look for it a bit. Lots of great youtube videos I've watched too that have gone through that material and truncated it a bit if you are short on time or attention like I am. haha. 

Problem is, too, further we get into the tv show, the further it gets away from the books because Martin likes to take his time and has lots of projects he's working on. If you've only read the books, I don't think we have had any confirmation of the Night King. Only stories and myths of the Night's King.. 13th Lord Commander or the watch who falls in love with a icy woman beyond the wall who comes back with him.... Reigns over Nightfort doing cruel and horrendous things. He's only a legend in the books though, a story.. Many people think he and Night King from the show are the same or were supposed to be before the show just began outpacing Martin's writing and did their own thing. But again... Martin himself hasn't actually revealed a leader of the White Walkers in the books, and he always dodges questions when asked about it. Book readers, IIRC, have only really read about the first scene with the Whites that we saw on the show at the VERYYYYYYY beginning and the scene where Sam kills one. That's all they know. The rest is just stories and things told between characters. 

But I'd highly encourage you to look up some of this information or read up / watch stuff about the history of Westeros, different blood lines, legendary figures, etc etc. It's super cool and fascinating. Just... hard to put all of that into a TV show. haha. 

[Thanatos 2,847]

The scene at the Fist of the First Men beyond the Wall is also in the books. In the books, the Night King is "the Great Other", and there is no way Martin just ditches the prophecy of Azor Ahai like has been done in the show. There was simply too much build up.

We also know about Crastor from the books, and the details about the White Walkers comes from Bran's conversations with Benjen Stark, because Benjen is the one who saves Bran in the books.

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1 hour ago, Thanatos said:

The scene at the Fist of the First Men beyond the Wall is also in the books. In the books, the Night King is "the Great Other", and there is no way Martin just ditches the prophecy of Azor Ahai like has been done in the show. There was simply too much build up.

We also know about Crastor from the books, and the details about the White Walkers comes from Bran's conversations with Benjen Stark, because Benjen is the one who saves Bran in the books.

So there is... 3 scenes with actual walkers? We've got multiple thousand plus page books with only a handful of walker scenes and Sean says that takes up 50% of the story? Eh. lol

I really don't think it's so much abandoned as they don't know what the fuck is going on. Maybe just semantics, but I think if they were told how that would play out they would have added more of it. They got a rough outline from Martin years ago... but who knows how much detail they got on Azor Ahai directly. I think that's a big reason they dropped Stoneheart as well. They knew it was gonna happen, but after that they had very little to work with from Martin directly as to how that story would play out, so they just axed it. They might've had more with Azor Ahai early on and thought maybe they'd get more with new material from Martin and it just never came. Martin was supposed to release the next book a couple years ago, obviously never came. They just have less and less info directly from Martin. Could they have just made something up? Sure. But they are taking enough liberties with the story that I'd rather them not do the same with Azor Ahai.

I don't know the answer to this for each person. What would you prefer? An almost 100% made up narrative from the showrunners that is almost nothing like Martin's telling or just nothing? As I mentioned earlier obviously they have to do that anyway considering it's taken Martin so long to get Winds out, but I'd rather them get through these major plots. Give us the meat of it and not give us pure garbage on the other intertwined stories within the novels. 

Edited May 4, 2019 by DalaiLama4Ever

[Thanatos 2,847]

There is a great deal on Stoneheart in the books, that's not why they dropped it. They said it would reduce the impact of Jon's resurrection if we already had a character brought back from the dead. Plus, they needed Beric alive for their own plot reasons, and in the books, Catelyn is brought back via Beric sacrificing himself to give her his life. Put simply, you are assigning a great deal of creativity to the show-writers and basically giving them a huge benefit of the doubt, instead of the more obvious- and more likely to be true- scenario that they simply don't know how to end the story arcs of people.

Game of Thrones has always been about consequences for actions. When Jon left Sam there, he should have died. They've simply lost their balls to kill off the major characters when they screw up big-time. With almost the sole exception of Dany losing her dragon, the main good guys have fucked up numerous times in S6-8 and not been punished for it at all.

[seanbrock 1,684]

Jon's entire storyline is at the wall. Just because the walkers aren't in a lot of scenes doesn't mean it isn't half the story. The wildlings whole storyline too. 

Also, the thing about Cersei being the final boss like I said is why would they actually March to Kings Landing to fight her? They could very easily just assassinate her and Euron with their knowledge of the Red Keep, their knowledge of Cersei and just the fact that they have an assassin that can steal faces. They could also just hole up in Winterfell. They should have plenty of food. I wonder how the hell they would plan to hit a dragon with a scorpion bolt at night because they could just light their asses on fire when the sun goes down when they're trying to lay siege to the castle. Ball is in Cersei's court. She has a mercinary army. How long are they going to sit in Kings Landing? Then again, strategy doesn't matter in this. All the main characters are retarded lol. 

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7 hours ago, Thanatos said:

There is a great deal on Stoneheart in the books, that's not why they dropped it. They said it would reduce the impact of Jon's resurrection if we already had a character brought back from the dead. Plus, they needed Beric alive for their own plot reasons, and in the books, Catelyn is brought back via Beric sacrificing himself to give her his life. Put simply, you are assigning a great deal of creativity to the show-writers and basically giving them a huge benefit of the doubt, instead of the more obvious- and more likely to be true- scenario that they simply don't know how to end the story arcs of people.

Game of Thrones has always been about consequences for actions. When Jon left Sam there, he should have died. They've simply lost their balls to kill off the major characters when they screw up big-time. With almost the sole exception of Dany losing her dragon, the main good guys have fucked up numerous times in S6-8 and not been punished for it at all.

Is that actually why they left out Stoneheart? I hadn’t read that directly. I just figured because they didn’t know where that was going that it seemed kind of like an empty plot. Stoneheart has divided some book readers tho. There’s a good chunk of people that think Martin himself was reluctant to let her go and that the Stoneheart stuff is a colossal waste of time. Lol. Idk if that’s actually the case but makes sense to me. Ironic that we’re discussing the potential of Martin not wanting to kill her off while complaining about the show runners not wanting to kill off certain characters. Ha. 

I’d probably lean towards agreeing with those people though. It’s been years since I’ve read them and my memory blows ... but I don’t remember her impacting really any of the main story lines . Berics character was way cooler and had a better story than what we know of Stoneheart this far. 

Plus I do like the Arya Frey kill way more. So maybe these guys aren’t the worst lol. 

But you’re probably not wrong. I like to have at least some blind faith in show — I think they deserve to a degree. And as previously discussed the problems other people have with the show aren’t as big of issues for me. 

Plus I think I prefer 90% of Martins stuff, so as I mentioned previously the less of the filling out they do the better, IMO. That isn’t so much blind faith at is agreeing with you that they can mess shit up , and If that’s the thought I’d just rather them mess up less of it. 

If not getting some of these answers in the show means A) we don’t get even shittier versions of these plots and B) our first experience with them will be through Martins words .... I’m totally cool with that. Sacrifice I’m willing to make, quite honestly. 

And I still love the show, so that helps. Haha 

Edited May 4, 2019 by DalaiLama4Ever

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1 hour ago, seanbrock said:

Jon's entire storyline is at the wall. Just because the walkers aren't in a lot of scenes doesn't mean it isn't half the story. The wildlings whole storyline too. 

Also, the thing about Cersei being the final boss like I said is why would they actually March to Kings Landing to fight her? They could very easily just assassinate her and Euron with their knowledge of the Red Keep, their knowledge of Cersei and just the fact that they have an assassin that can steal faces. They could also just hole up in Winterfell. They should have plenty of food. I wonder how the hell they would plan to hit a dragon with a scorpion bolt at night because they could just light their asses on fire when the sun goes down when they're trying to lay siege to the castle. Ball is in Cersei's court. She has a mercinary army. How long are they going to sit in Kings Landing? Then again, strategy doesn't matter in this. All the main characters are retarded lol. 

Even if every single Jon chapter in the books were literally only white walker rested... that’s still less than 25% of the books going by chapters. 

But that was kind of my point bringing up the books and the scenes with whites. 

So much of the threat of the Whites in the books is created by us the reader. We know a decent amount through conversations, experiences, and stories but what Martin does is pretty brilliant. It’s like a good scary movie... it’s revealing the killers legs behind a curtain before he strikes but not revealing him until the middle / end. Builds suspense and tension. It allows our minds and creativity to do all the work . And quite frankly that’s way more powerful than anything that could be written. 

Thats not a diss on Martin or any other author because what he will end up writing will more than likely be great. But he’s very slowly revealing his boogeyman and very smartly. 

As I mentioned earlier, and Thanatos can correct me if I’m wrong here, but the books haven’t ever explicitly named a leader of the white walkers. Our characters don’t really know what they are up against. Also , as Than pointed out... we can assume it’s the Great Other but I don’t think it’s actually been written yet. Key phrase, we can assume. We’re building up that threat off the page, in our minds... Knowing / assuming that though also gives you a lot of the answers you were looking for earlier in regards to the involvement of the Lord of Light. 

His involvement makes a lot more sense if you consider his direct opposite and nemesis is commanding the White Walkers lol. Like I said before, I think a lot of the answers you want are actually out there already — just not in the show. Which I can understand is disappointing in some ways.