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seanbrock

What are we motivated by?

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11 hours ago, seanbrock said:

I think even a therapist would say that they can't fix people's mental issues but they can support them and guide them and help them with strategies to cope. I don't think he was saying that you shouldn't seek help if you're depressed or whatever. The drugs psychiatrists prescribe just mask issues the same way alcohol or recreational drugs do (it's no coincidence than many of those psych drugs are used recreationally/abused) again, I have experience with addiction, I have experience with therapists and psychiatrists as well as truly imbalanced people (my uncle is schizophrenic). You can't make depression or anger go away with a pill, nor should you attempt to. 

@Thanatos 

No, they really, really don't. It's much more like this:

Consider life is like a mountain that we have to climb. The default is that everyone has the mental tools to get the job done, in balance. Someone who is medically diagnosed as depressed, instead of having all the tools needed, instead has just rope. A ton of rope and nothing else. Their chemicals are imbalanced. The medicine that is prescribed literally jump starts the production of chemicals in your brain so you can have the same level playing field as everyone else. 

Almost every drug can be abused. Cough syrup can be abused, pain meds can be abused, psych drugs can be abused. This doesn't really prove anything about anything.

I don't necessarily think Ngata was saying you shouldn't seek help. My issue is with the way he states it. People telling a depressed person that ultimately it's up to them does not help, because they cannot see a way out at the moment. They're looking at all these other people with all the tools just tell them they just need to man up and get through it. You first need to level the playing field, and THEN they can actually begin to fight their way out of it. Because you do have to fight out of it, since you've spent the entire previous part of your life not having a level playing field. That gets to people, it gets them thinking pessimistically. They're not used to actually being able to be happy. 

So don't get me wrong, I'm not saying the individual doesn't have to do anything, but medicine is necessary to jump start that process. And acting like it just masks the issues absolutely does not help anyone.

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20 minutes ago, Thanatos said:

I don't necessarily think Ngata was saying you shouldn't seek help. My issue is with the way he states it. People telling a depressed person that ultimately it's up to them does not help, because they cannot see a way out at the moment. They're looking at all these other people with all the tools just tell them they just need to man up and get through it. You first need to level the playing field, and THEN they can actually begin to fight their way out of it. Because you do have to fight out of it, since you've spent the entire previous part of your life not having a level playing field. That gets to people, it gets them thinking pessimistically. They're not used to actually being able to be happy. 

They should definitely get help. What I am saying is even with medication I am very dubious about telling people the cure is a pill. Using your analogy if someone is on the same plane as everyone, they still have to do the work. There are millions of people who have medication and are still depressed. Those people are not doing the work in most cases.

And sometimes you do have to man up and get through. Sometimes it really is that simple, but it's hard. 

 I also have a problem with medications though. Not saying they are all bad or even most, but consider this. Imagine being diagnosed young and life sort of being numbed for you with meds, and then you get off for whatever reason and now life is coming at you full force. That is why I think a lot of people break and eventually commit suicide. No proof just a theory.

I think how we treat mental health is poor. So.e people need medicines, sure. Others need coping skills, support structures, confidence or a whole bunch of things that cant be cured with pills.

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The early diagnosis point is HUGE. Kids are being put on these medicines well before their brains have developed and there no studies on kids since that's illegal so you're basically singning your kid up to be a guinea pig because teachers can't handle 30 kids in a classroom. For all we know some of these imbalances are caused by the medication. I was bad in school because I had a fucked up home life. My dad is a crackhead and he used to beat my mom's ass a couple times a week. I was in the Sped room my entire school career until college and I saw a lot of kids on those medicines and it's only gotten worse now. My brothers are 8 and 10 years younger than me and they said most of the kids in their classes were on some sort of drug. I think psychiatrists are scan artists. Nothing you will say will change my mind. After my experience in school this was reaffirmed by my experience in rehab facilities and prison. People can be fully functional after losing half their brain to a stroke. It's called neural plasticity and that shit happens with therapy and rehab. VERY few people actually need those medicines. I'm all for people going to see a therapist/psychologist but the rest is almost always bullshit imo.

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I think you do see a lot of bad medicine being practiced in regards to children. Look how fast (many, not all) these doctors or psychiatrists are to diagnose a kid with ADHD or whatever other label / disease that is convenient for the adults at the time. 

Whether it’s teachers at school, the doctors, or even the parents... all they want is an “answer” and a “cure”. And for someone reason shoving pills down a kids throat makes everyone feel comfortable and better about the situation. 

Edit: And to bring that thought more full circle, in reality the parents (or other adults) usually just need to alter their own behavior to quell a child acting out or a super hyper kid. 

Maybe actually do stuff with them... take them outside. I don’t want to over simplify it, but if you’ve got a hyperactive kid — I think taking them out to see and do thing and expend that extra energy sure is a good thing to try before opening a bottle. 

Edited by DalaiLama4Ever

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I really think it is being engaged as a parent and a two parent home is ideal. At least when they are younger. My son is a good example. 

My son has been in wrestling since he was 4. When he first started he would cry when he lost. I dont do crying boys, that is my wife's domain. Now Macy I will listen to her cry about losing her dolls teacups and naturally will buy her some more and drink imaginary tea. I was always taught men dont cry and true to teaching I haven't cried in 20 years since my mom died. So when Gabe did it at first I was mad, but then I do what I always do and read about it in books and by the time I figured it out my wife had him straight on it and made him feel better about himself and his self image.

Now that he is older he is starting to experience more complex emotions. Things that a father has to deal with. So we go to the river all the time and we swap stories and talk about how he feels about things and how it affects his decisions. I have a long way to go because I would like my son to not carry the rage I have always had. I shit you not I take notes and spend the majority of my day thinking about how to deal with those things. The good news about kids is they tend to have the same problems often so once I have figured out what I should say I can use it the next time. I am not one of those guys who is naturally good at being a dad so I have to constantly work on showing him how he should react and not how I would. Then I have to try to change how I react for his sake.

I say all that to say that kids need better parents more than they need meds. I see so many kids on meds and it makes me sad that their parents would rather get solutions from pills. Now not EVERY case can be solved without them but I would be willing to bet a shitliad could.

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On the topic of personal responsibility for mental health--I think it ties in more with their everyday actions. Sometimes poor mental health is paired with really destructive decision-making. The individual is still responsible for making better decisions. Mental health is not an excuse and shouldn't be looked at as one. They still know right and wrong.

I agree with sean, real mental illness is generally caused by some form of trauma.

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8 hours ago, Omerta said:

They should definitely get help. What I am saying is even with medication I am very dubious about telling people the cure is a pill. Using your analogy if someone is on the same plane as everyone, they still have to do the work. There are millions of people who have medication and are still depressed. Those people are not doing the work in most cases.

And sometimes you do have to man up and get through. Sometimes it really is that simple, but it's hard. 

 I also have a problem with medications though. Not saying they are all bad or even most, but consider this. Imagine being diagnosed young and life sort of being numbed for you with meds, and then you get off for whatever reason and now life is coming at you full force. That is why I think a lot of people break and eventually commit suicide. No proof just a theory.

I think how we treat mental health is poor. So.e people need medicines, sure. Others need coping skills, support structures, confidence or a whole bunch of things that cant be cured with pills.

I'm not even necessarily disagreeing with you. I'm just saying you can't approach the problem that way because that's not what those people need to hear. The cure is absolutely started with medication for a lot of people, though. THEN they need to work at it, and its hard, and a lot of people don't want to put in the effort. But if you don't help them out and give them the needed stuff to get to a level starting point, they will never get there.

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7 hours ago, seanbrock said:

VERY few people actually need those medicines. I'm all for people going to see a therapist/psychologist but the rest is almost always bullshit imo.

This is just demonstrably untrue. No idea why psychiatrists in particular are being singled out except for your own personal experience. The APA is a respected scientific and medical organization, with tons of peer reviewed journals and articles on the subject in question. Most people that are on the medicines DO need them. Again, definitely people that abuse them and definitely doctors that don't properly diagnose before prescribing. But to claim that VERY few people actually need these medicines is... a bold statement to make, to say the least. You are claiming that a ton of people who have done a ton of research and education into this subject are all wrong and most people just need to...? What? Be happy? Learn to cope? Based on your small personal circle of people you know? Please. If we're going with personal experience, I deal with people day in and day out, and I've seen them without medicine when their insurance and stuff is being a bitch, and its night and day the difference it makes in people. But regardless, that's a very small amount of people to base something on, be far better to look at the tens of thousands of studies that have been done on the issue here.

If your brain is imbalanced, you can talk about being happy and feeling better all you want, and its real easy to do on this side of things, and it's just not possible for a great deal of people.

Edited by Thanatos

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I think the difference being applied her is that psychiatrists often don’t provide much, if any, actual therapy. They are, generally, there to diagnose and prescribe. 

 

Edited by DalaiLama4Ever
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@Thanatos What do you think the APA is going to say? I guarantee you they're not going to find anything that will hurt their wallet. There are plenty of people with experience in the field and lots of degrees that say people are over medicated

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13 hours ago, Thanatos said:

I'm not even necessarily disagreeing with you. I'm just saying you can't approach the problem that way because that's not what those people need to hear. The cure is absolutely started with medication for a lot of people, though. THEN they need to work at it, and its hard, and a lot of people don't want to put in the effort. But if you don't help them out and give them the needed stuff to get to a level starting point, they will never get there.

One of the hardest things in life might be a family member or friend's refusal to seek needed treatment for trauma-induced mental health issues or personality disorders. One of my good friends was abandoned by a parent and severely abused by the present parent as a child and that trauma is destroying this person's ability to have a normal life whatsoever. Many of their friends are shady manipulators. They never pick good partners (in their defense, there, they do stay single for the most part. Just fails terribly at picking partners when they do). They're making progress toward healing on their own (this person is kinder every time we reconnect after periods of doing our own thing) but stays in a pattern of severe drop, then mania as they come back up, and then they spend time somewhat level. Rinse and repeat

It is the most difficult thing to observe in any friend I've ever had. I've seen other cases but never so severe. 

So I consistently push treatment and therapy. But this person is 100% responsible for their refusal to seek further treatment. There are mental health things that human beings simply need therapy and medication for. Period. End of story.

So on the topic of motivation--why are we not motivated by feeling better at younger ages? I've begun to think that true maturity begins when one realizes that they absolutely have to take care of themselves first and foremost.

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54 minutes ago, BwareDWare94 said:

One of the hardest things in life might be a family member or friend's refusal to seek needed treatment.

Heard that. 

Or goes to a psychiatrist to be diagnosed with 5 million things with 10,000 different scrips — some of which is needed for sure but without therapy, you still watch them suffer and struggle.

It’s hard to know when, how, and how far to insert yourself often times. At least it is for me. 

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@BwareDWare94 I created this thread to challenge the notion that social hierarchies can only be based on having more money and more material possessions than the next guy. Like for me, even if I'm not getting paid a lot of money, I like to be good at what I do and have the respect and trust of my co-workers.

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When someone needs help beyond what they can do for themselves, you can either say it to them or stay silent and regret it. And staying silent is pretty much enabling them to continue doing what isn't working. 

Anybody else sick of this current movement saying it's everybosy else's responsibility to reach out to hurting people? We've been reaching out for years...

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It's both the responsibility of loved ones and friends and the person who's suffering. Not an either or scenario to me. We have a responsibility as human beings to treat people with empathy kindness and respect and anyone who says different is an asshole tbh.

Edited by seanbrock

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Empathy is a big reason why the world is better now than it ever has been in history. Obviously a lot of bad things still happen, there is still work to be done... but the spreading of empathy and trying to (at least a little) understand the struggle of others makes us better people.

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3 hours ago, seanbrock said:

@BwareDWare94 I created this thread to challenge the notion that social hierarchies can only be based on having more money and more material possessions than the next guy. Like for me, even if I'm not getting paid a lot of money, I like to be good at what I do and have the respect and trust of my co-workers.

The thing about social hierarchies is that they're mostly natural reactions to the current environment. In this Instagram environment, everybody displays their high points constantly, which gives lazy scroll-the-internet types the idea that a constantly happy life is possible, and that some people have it while they don't. 

That being said, the real question is how we've become such a gullible collection of sheeple. I personally recommend at the very least blocking social media on personal phones. This allows the individual to focus directly on life. 

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@BwareDWare94It's by design but I do think you're right that technology and social media in particular plays a role. If you get a chance look up a guy named Horace Mann. He brought us the factory model of public education from Prussia. He sold it to the rich by saying it was a way to control the working class and he sold it to the working class by saying it was the great equalizer. Basically it's larger function is selecting for obedience more so than it is to teach independent/critical thought. (No @Thanatos it isn't a conspiracy theory. It's historical fact that I read partially from newspapers the man published himself in the 1800's)

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12 hours ago, seanbrock said:

@Thanatos What do you think the APA is going to say? I guarantee you they're not going to find anything that will hurt their wallet. There are plenty of people with experience in the field and lots of degrees that say people are over medicated

You didn't say people are over-medicated. You said "VERY few of these people need medication." The idea that people are being over-prescribed shit is a perfectly reasonable belief. I'd argue its pretty damn factual given shit like the Johnson and Johnson decision that just got handed down.

However, the idea that the vast majority of them don't need medicine at all is what I find so objectionable. This just perpetuates a stereotype and you have absolutely zero evidence to support your point of view here. 

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48 minutes ago, Thanatos said:

You didn't say people are over-medicated. You said "VERY few of these people need medication." The idea that people are being over-prescribed shit is a perfectly reasonable belief. I'd argue its pretty damn factual given shit like the Johnson and Johnson decision that just got handed down.

However, the idea that the vast majority of them don't need medicine at all is what I find so objectionable. This just perpetuates a stereotype and you have absolutely zero evidence to support your point of view here. 

Is there evidence the other way?  No bullshit is there any way to tell that the meds are needed over other solutions or is or just the APA saying so or do they even say it?

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17 hours ago, seanbrock said:

@BwareDWare94It's by design but I do think you're right that technology and social media in particular plays a role. If you get a chance look up a guy named Horace Mann. He brought us the factory model of public education from Prussia. He sold it to the rich by saying it was a way to control the working class and he sold it to the working class by saying it was the great equalizer. Basically it's larger function is selecting for obedience more so than it is to teach independent/critical thought. (No @Thanatos it isn't a conspiracy theory. It's historical fact that I read partially from newspapers the man published himself in the 1800's)

Maybe I'm being naive, but I don't truly believe there's some grand conspiracy by the wealthy to keep us all in line. I think there are some wealthy people who take advantage of their influence, but are we really going to move forward believing in an Us vs. Them mentality? There's no fruit to be had with that perspective. 

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12 hours ago, Omerta said:

Is there evidence the other way?  No bullshit is there any way to tell that the meds are needed over other solutions or is or just the APA saying so or do they even say it?

There is a ton. One of the definitive papers on the subject seeks to compare the efficacy of psychiatric drugs vs medicinal ones, and comes to the conclusion that the vast majority of psych drugs have the same efficacy as the vast majority of medicinal drugs. There is a stigma such as the one that Sean espouses that psychiatric drugs are somehow not good, and it's so pervasive it even can cause doctors to be reluctant to prescribe mental health drugs even if the patient would clearly be better for it. 

http://www.antoniocasella.eu/archipsy/Leucht_2012.pdf

There are reasons why people think like Sean does here.

1) They think psych drugs are addictive, as Sean has already laid out such an argument. With a few exceptions, they are not. They are not even in the same class as far as opioids and yet we are fine using those when necessary. (And over the past twenty years, many, many, times even when not necessary.) This comes from suffering minor withdrawal symptoms when you stop taking a psych medicine, but this is not equivalent to addiction. If you cold turkey stop many drugs you will experience discomfort as your body adjusts. 

2) They think they are overprescibed. There is a decent amount of evidence for this claim, but it almost all revolves around anti-depressants, which is the one place where there is a footing for actual evidence of the attacks on psych drugs. Anti-depressants are extremely strong drugs, they should not be given within a couple weeks or so of trying to solve a problem, for two reasons. A) ADs are one of the addictive psych drugs, and they have to be in order to work correctly. B) They do little-to-no good, in fact they can do a lot of harm, if you give it to someone who is not extremely depressed. Even people who are legitimately depressed- as in diagnosed as such- should not automatically be given ADs. If their depression- their chemical imbalance- is not severe enough, then taking an AD will tip the scales too far in the other direction and they will simply be imbalanced as fuck and this can cause all sorts of issues. 

3) They are given to children and young teens when many of them simply need an outlet. This is mainly for ADHD and the like. My cousin, for example, was told that he had ADHD by the school nurse- who has no business diagnosing that- because during a test someone dropped their pencil and he bent down and returned it to them. This was considered evidence that he couldn't focus. This is bullshit. One of the conversations I remember vividly was my pharmacist refusing to fill a script for Adderall for a 5-year old. The doctor even called and said he needed it, and he refused. We are over-reliant on medicine to keep children in line, you will get zero argument from me there. 

These factors, however, lead to a distrust of psych drugs as a whole, when many people literally could not function without them. 

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ADHD drugs are a whole other can of worms. You want to talk about over-prescribed? Damn are they ever.

Children are not supposed to be as docile and quiet as house plants. Why our society wants them this way is beyond understanding.

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1 hour ago, BwareDWare94 said:

Maybe I'm being naive, but I don't truly believe there's some grand conspiracy by the wealthy to keep us all in line. I think there are some wealthy people who take advantage of their influence, but are we really going to move forward believing in an Us vs. Them mentality? There's no fruit to be had with that perspective. 

This isn't up for debate though my friend. It's a fact. The Prussians were a militaristic society and at the time we're considered the best army in the world but then they lost to Napoleon and for a country that basically traded on that it was not a good look. Their army was so good because it was so regimented. There were people who wanted to bring that discipline to the citizenry which they wanted to be as uniform, organized and disciplined as their army. They wanted "obedient workers for the mines, obedient soldiers for the army, well subordinated civil servants the the government, well subordinated clerks to industry and citizens who thought alike in major issues." That guy Horace Mann I told you about went to Prussia and decided it would work in America too. Idk you should at least look up what I'm telling you before you say you don't believe it. Like I said, I read newspapers the dude published in college. This isn't from conspiracy theory.com. it's historical fact. 

 

This dude does a great job of explaining it. It absolutely is us vs them.

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