UPDATE: Joe Paterno, School President OUT

[NaTaS+ 958]

Seperate post because it has little do do with my post above: Isn't this obviously a lack of institutional control when something like this is allowed to happen for so long? Should the NCAA consider the death penalty for Penn State football?

[KiLaSix9+ 398]

Seperate post because it has little do do with my post above: Isn't this obviously a lack of institutional control when something like this is allowed to happen for so long? Should the NCAA consider the death penalty for Penn State football?

I think yes. That's what my heart tells me; give them the dealth penalty. Burn them all. However, did they violate anything in terms of the NCAA and its rule book? This is a legal/moral issue so I'm not sure just how much the NCAA can do to the school on that level.

[WindyCitySports 407]

Oochymp is hitting the nail on the head. Paterno was wrong but nit to the extent to get fired for it.

 

A few updates:

-Penn State to hold "blue out" against Nebraska this Saturday in support of the victims. A good move, IMO, and the first time they haven't worn white in a LONG time. I think changing the color really shows 1. A return to a focus on the victims and 2. How big of an effect it has had on the school. It will be weird seeing Happy Valley in blue.

- Nebraska has issued a statement saying that they are fearful for their fans safety on Saturday.

- Rumors are circulating that Sandusky "pumped out" children to PSU's top donors. I'll post a story on that if one surfaces.

 

If only people would've had more decency and none of this would have ever happened.

[oochymp 2,393]

There is no way we know enough about the situation to make that assertion.

There isn't enough out at this point to say anything else. If more information comes out I will revisit that opinion, but at this point, based on the Grand Jury report, that's my opinion.

[NaTaS+ 958]

There isn't enough out at this point to say anything else. If more information comes out I will revisit that opinion, but at this point, based on the Grand Jury report, that's my opinion.

 

 

So your opinion is that unless JoePa actually broke a law, he should not be punished?

 

 

Bullshit. He didnt give a damn about those kids and deserves everything he is getting. His inaction boarders on criminal. I don't want to hear that he told his boss - that wasn't enough and certainly doesn't excuse the fact that he continued to have a relationship with Sandusky through the years.

 

This post should move from support for poor Joe Paterno to support for those kids and families affected by this madness.

[WindyCitySports 407]

Can someone PLEASE tell me why McQueary is set to coach in this Saturday's game?! He SAW the incident and didn't stop it and he gets to keep his job, but a guy who heard about it and reported it but didn't go to the police gets fired?! ARE YOU FUCKING KIDDING ME?! That's an utter disgrace.

[RazorStar 4,025]

This whole thing makes me sick. I was reading the GJ report that oochy posted and it took a lot of effort just to keep reading. I am utterly disgusted that not one person could come out and speak out until now. These people disgust me, and I can only hope that if I was ever witness to such a thing that I would not be so cowardly. To take advantage of a child like that, I am so angry I can barely type coherent sentences. I hope Sandusky gets a bullet in his fucking skull.

[oochymp 2,393]

So your opinion is that unless JoePa actually broke a law, he should not be punished?

 

 

Bullshit. He didnt give a damn about those kids and deserves everything he is getting. His inaction boarders on criminal. I don't want to hear that he told his boss - that wasn't enough and certainly doesn't excuse the fact that he continued to have a relationship with Sandusky through the years.

 

This post should move from support for poor Joe Paterno to support for those kids and families affected by this madness.

I think I need to clarify a few points:

 

1) finding and supporting the victims and their families and making sure that some measure of justice (as much as is possible in this sort of case) is served are definitely the top priorities, I don't want to mix that up at all, and I'm not trying to paint Paterno as a victim (just the thought of doing so given what the actual victims went through disgusts me) I just don't think firing Paterno helps any of those concerns.

 

2) my main point was that the way the media is portraying it you'd think Paterno had the highest duty of anyone involved to report the incident, but that clearly falls on the school administration who ignored the situation at least twice (I don't know that anyone official was notified in the 2000 case spotted by a janitor, but it appears not) and yet they're not getting nearly the same scrutiny Paterno is which, IMO, is due to how high profile Paterno is, just because he's a high profile figure doesn't mean he has to press the case to anyone who will hear it, Paterno has every right to assume that the school officials will deal with the case properly and it's not his fault if they don't.

 

3) I didn't say Paterno shouldn't be punished, I just said he shouldn't be fired, but I really think he did himself a disservice by announcing he would retire at the end of the season, I think the board decided that they couldn't let him leave on his own terms and after his announcement the only way to accomplish that was to fire him now.

[Anthony 78]

Anyone defending Joe Paterno hasn't read the transcripts.

Anyone saying Joe Paterno shouldn't have been fired hasn't read the transcripts.

 

This was an obvious cover-up that involved several parties and Penn State needs to clean house. There isn't anyone on that coaching staff that didn't know. There isn't anyone in that athletic department that didn't know. They all need to go.

 

I've read threads and saw things like "JoePa went through the chain of command"? Really? What is the chain of command for a crime? If you witness a crime in the lobby of your workplace, what you do is call the cops. You don't have to go to your boss. What for? He's not law enforcement. The only reason you go to your boss is because you know the perpetrator is a member of the Penn State football family. You go to your boss because there has to be a decision made to protect him or not, based on his status. That's the only reason for it. That decision was made, and the Athletic Department, Joe Paterno, and everyone else on that coaching staff chose to protect Sandusky, and not the child.

 

Read the transcripts and you'll see that there was a second eyewitness account to Sandusky sexually assaulting a child in the same Penn State showers where the grad student also found him. Those guys didn't know what to do, because of who it was and what he meant to the program. Those janitors feared losing their jobs. Why do you fear that, unless you know how close the program holds that person, where they would be willing to fire you for snitching, instead of having him arrested for molesting?

 

I find that most people defending the actions or lack of action by the Penn State staff can't separate themselves from football. This is bigger than sports. Penn State defenders remind me of certain Catholics that defended the archdiose because the men in charge, men that knew, weren't the ones that committed the act. They pinned the blame soley on the pedophile priest that got caught. But if you knew, and you were part of the cover-up by keeping your mouth shut, you are also in the wrong and should be dismissed. Joe Paterno knew. He reported to a superior, and nothing was done. He allowed Sandusky on his sidelines, sometimes with the victims, for both home and road games. He knew all these years that there was a man sexually assaulting boys on his campus, in his facilities, and kept is hush, just like everyone else. He suspended 3 players in 2005 for making prank calls to Sandusky's house. Those players obviously heard the rumors about him, so how can any coach, new or old to the staff, NOT KNOW.

 

This isn't about victories, records, rankings, and number of games coached. This is about a group of men that failed children. They failed children by allowing a predator to keep hunting for prey. Alerting the property authorities wouldn't have stopped what happened to that one boy in the shower, but it would have spared another child of becoming a Sandusky victim in the future.

Edited November 11, 2011 by Anthony

[PackIsBack 124]

This story is incredibly tragic because the authorities were not notified and innocent children continued to be harmed. In addition, it's sick that it happened on campus and that not a single person notified the police about what was happening. Joe Paterno might have thought that Sandusky would stop what he was doing, but either way he chose the college program over innocent victims and that is so damn pathetic and downright sad.

[oochymp 2,393]

Honestly, I think what disgusts me the most is that McQueary is staying on the coaching staff, if JoePa is culpable for not reporting to a higher authority than the school President, then why is McQueary not culpable for the same?

 

And Anthony, I did read the Grand Jury Report, and that's largely what convinced me that JoePa is getting an undue share of the blame, and I'm not a college football fan of any variety, so it has nothing to do with that aspect.

Edited November 11, 2011 by oochymp

[GA_Eagle 595]

On Jeff Pearlman's blog from a Penn State student... thought it was a pretty good read.

 

http://www.jeffpearlman.com/guest-post-from-an-angry-penn-state-student/

[Anthony 78]

Honestly, I think what disgusts me the most is that McQueary is staying on the coaching staff, if JoePa is culpable for not reporting to a higher authority than the school President, then why is McQueary not culpable for the same?

 

And Anthony, I did read the Grand Jury Report, and that's largely what convinced me that JoePa is getting an undue share of the blame, and I'm not a college football fan of any variety, so it has nothing to do with that aspect.

 

The public perceives it as Joe Paterno getting an undue share of the blame, and that's because he's the person identified with Penn State. Before this broke, how many knew the names of the other employees? How many heard of Sandusky and knew who he was? How many could name the school president without using google? Everyone knows Joe Paterno, so that's who the media has focused on. If this wasn't Penn State and just a random Elementary school or even a church, the public would want everyone with knowledge held accountable. But because it's Penn State, and one of the men in the middle of it has long been respected as its football coach, he's somehow supposed to receive a pass in return for his loyal years of service. It is Joe Pa's loyalty to the program that earned him national respect. And it is that same loyalty to the program that led to his demise.

 

 

Three men went to jail, and only one of them sexually assaulted kids. As one of the people with knowledge of the abuse, and not only choosing to keep it in-house, but also remaining silent on all the dates after, though Sandusky continued to be seen at the facilities in the company of young boys (which he was supposed to be banned from), all Joe Paterno got was "fired". I don't see that as an undue share of blame. I agree that the grad student should also be fired, but I believe that will also come in time. This is just the beginning. Plenty of heads are going to roll. I don't even think Bradley is safe, though he is now the interim coach.

 

This is a comment left on the Pearlman blog that GA Eagle linked to, and I agree with it:

 

In order for PSU to continue having a football team (which is a main source of income for the college), they have to clear house with regard to the coaching staff. Paterno is just the most visible, the rest of the staff will probably go after the season. It had to be done, whether or not Paterno was complicit, or just a bystand[er].

 

Edited November 11, 2011 by Anthony

[oochymp 2,393]

The public perceives it as Joe Paterno getting an undue share of the blame, and that's because he's the person identified with Penn State.

sorry, I stopped reading here because I couldn't disagree more (ok, I did read the rest of your post, but this is basically your post in a nutshell)

 

I couldn't give a fuck less about Penn State football and I see it as JoePa getting an undue share of the blame because he wasn't a witness, all he had was a report from McQueary of questionable detail (we don't know how much McQueary told him and probably never will, so I'm not going to belabor that point) After JoePa reported what he knew to the university administration he had a reasonable expectation that they would conduct a sufficient investigation, unquestionably they failed on that point. However, once the university president didn't pursue it JoePa had two things: he had a report from a graduate assistant and he had a complete inaction from the administration. By saying JoePa should have gone to the police at that point you're basically asking JoePa to trust a graduate assistant more than the school president. The only way that happens is if the graduate assistant is ridiculously insistent (which does not appear to be the case) in which case all JoePa needed to do was encourage McQueary to go to the police.

 

If JoePa had actually witnessed Sandusky's actions then it's an entirely different scenario, but that's not the case. In hindsight, he certainly should have gone to the police, but looking at the information he had in the moment there's no reason for him to go to the police unless McQueary (the actual witness) was dissatisfied with the university response, which he damn well should have been.

[NaTaS+ 958]

By saying JoePa should have gone to the police at that point you're basically asking JoePa to trust a graduate assistant more than the school president.

 

Nope. This isn't a legal issue we're discussing. This is a moral and public perception issue. He isn't being sent to jail. He's being fired.

 

Forget JoePa for a minute and imagine if this were a high school coach. He is told that one of his assistant coaches (That has been accused before) is buttraping some kids in the showers. This head coach knew what was happening and did nothing substantial about it besides call his the principal. Not only would the public, rightfully, want the heads of anyone who knew what was happening and didn't go to police but we would expect that administrators would be out on their asses as well for allowing this to continue under their watch. Shit, we would probably even want some very severe penalties against the school itself.

 

Now think about JoePa - does he really have any superiors at PSU? You know damn well he is a god in Happy Valley. He knew and he helped protect his friend and the reputation of Penn State.

 

I'm going to sit back and let the courts do what they're supposed to do and not entirely rely on the Grand Jury's summary of events.

[oochymp 2,393]

Nope. This isn't a legal issue we're discussing. This is a moral and public perception issue. He isn't being sent to jail. He's being fired.

 

Forget JoePa for a minute and imagine if this were a high school coach. He is told that one of his assistant coaches (That has been accused before) is buttraping some kids in the showers. This head coach knew what was happening and did nothing substantial about it besides call his the principal. Not only would the public, rightfully, want the heads of anyone who knew what was happening and didn't go to police but we would expect that administrators would be out on their asses as well for allowing this to continue under their watch. Shit, we would probably even want some very severe penalties against the school itself.

 

Now think about JoePa - does he really have any superiors at PSU? You know damn well he is a god in Happy Valley. He knew and he helped protect his friend and the reputation of Penn State.

 

I'm going to sit back and let the courts do what they're supposed to do and not entirely rely on the Grand Jury's summary of events.

First of all, I haven't said anything about not running the administration out of town, in fact I'm pretty sure I've at least implied the opposite.

 

Everybody is jumping to the conclusion that JoePa knew what went on, JoePa witnessed nothing, he received a report from a graduate assistant which he relayed to the school administration, and the school administration called McQueary in to get the direct story. After the administration talked to McQueary and went nowhere with it JoePa had no reason to go further based on the information he had at the time.

 

I've already expressed that I don't care about college football or PSU and I know that this situation goes way beyond either, so please stop telling me that my conclusion is based on the fact that it's JoePa. I'm looking at this as 'what would I have done in JoePa's position' and the conclusion I come to is that unless the graduate assistant seemed dissatisfied with the administration's approach then there's no reason to go further. I might have been proactive about talking to the graduate assistant about what the administration did rather than wait for him to approach me saying they didn't do enough, but I wouldn't have gone straight to the police about something I didn't witness unless the actual witness was going with me.

 

I can see the argument that JoePa has no functional superiors at PSU in spite of a few official ones, and that's probably the best justification of saying that he should have done more to make sure that a true investigation actually occurred, but again, I'm not sure I would have done more if I were in JoePa's position. Now, if I were in McQueary's position I sure as hell hope I would do more, but I really hope I'm never in that position.

 

I also agree with sitting back and seeing what the courts decide, but the PSU board didn't do that with JoePa, instead they fired him because of the public pressure mounting against him.

[Anthony 78]

I also agree with sitting back and seeing what the courts decide, but the PSU board didn't do that with JoePa, instead they fired him because of the public pressure mounting against him.

 

Joe Paterno was fired, because that's the way it's always done. You say the firing is a result of pressure from the public to do so, but what I've seen in this situation, compared to others, is just the opposite. Joe Pa has defenders, the others didn't.

 

Jim Tressel didn't report an email he received and allowed players to continue to participate. Immediately the public said Tressel had to go. It was an NCAA violation, but no crime commmitted. Tressel lost his job. It ended the college career of his star player. That wasn't good enough for the public. They demanded he also serve a suspension before he began a new job in the NFL--and all based on an act that wasn't illegal. To this day, people are still calling for the termination of Athletic Director Gene Smith as well.

 

In North Carolina, Butch Davis lost his job, because one of his coaches was a runner for an agent, supplying traveling expenses, money, and gifts to players. Those players, along with the head coach, were dismissed from the team. Davis had a 30-year relationship with his assistant coach, to which the school presidents said he should have known. No public outcry. No defense of Butch Davis. No illegal act.

 

At USC, Todd McNair was fired and can never coach college football again. He lost his job because a player (Reggie Bush) obtained a loan from an agent. He lost his job, because the NCAA stated that his relationship with the player meant he should have known. Athletic Director Mike Garrett also lost his job. The head coach was already gone. The school president retired. No "illegal" act occurred, but not only did the school clean house, it was ordered to disassociate the player. No public defense of those losing their jobs, with most feeling the terminations were proper.

 

At Tennessee, Bruce Pearl was fired for his recruiting tactics. Soon after, the Athletic Director lost his job. No illegal acts committed. No public defense of those fired.

 

Then we have Penn State, where not one, but several crimes occurred, with the perpetrator being a member of their football family. The Head coach has a relationship with this perpetrator that spans more than 30 years, and knowledge of at least one incident that occurred at the facilities. The school president is fired. Other members of the staff are fired. The head coach, Joe Paterno, is fired, and suddenly, unlike all the others where no crime was committed, there is public outrage and defense of the firing of a coach after an obvious cover-up of sexual abuse is exposed.

 

I don't know if it's because we've become a society so driven by sports, but something is wrong when criminal acts are viewed as something less than NCAA violations, and firings that stem from those acts are perceived as unwarranted.

Edited November 11, 2011 by Anthony

[oochymp 2,393]

Joe Paterno was fired, because that's the way it's always done. You say the firing is a result of pressure from the public to do so, but what I've seen in this situation, compared to others, is just the opposite. Joe Pa has defenders, the others didn't.

Other than Penn State students (and a few random people like me) who has come out in support of JoePa? I have yet to see any sportswriter say JoePa shouldn't be fired, in fact most said the exact opposite.

 

As for the other scenarios you mentioned, I will freely admit that I don't follow college sports so I don't know what went on in each situation. However, from what I can remember most writers saw those situations as cases where the NCAA (or the schools in question) had to act because of their own rules, not out of a major moral duty. The Tressel/OSU case has even been used to argue in favor of paying players because of how little people thought of the violations, the insistence in making him serve a suspension was basically just to allow the NCAA sanction to have some teeth and for fairness after Pryor's suspension was transferred to the NFL. Also, all of the cases you pointed to involved sanctionable offenses under the NCAA rules so to point out that no laws were broken is rather disingenuous. Sure, no state or federal laws were broken, but the NCAA rules function the same way within the community of college athletics, so think of it as those guys breaking company policy.

 

Again, I'm not saying that what went on at PSU wasn't despicable, I just don't think JoePa knew enough to say he had a duty to do more than he did. Perhaps there's some willful ignorance going on, but that's purely speculation.

[Anthony 78]

Again, I'm not saying that what went on at PSU wasn't despicable, I just don't think JoePa knew enough to say he had a duty to do more than he did. Perhaps there's some willful ignorance going on, but that's purely speculation.

 

Okay, how about now? Joe Paterno knew about Sandusky's past, or at least had an idea, since an incident was reported to him years ago. Now there is evidence that throughout that time, and even in the days leading up to Sandusky's arrest, Paterno had him acting as a program recruiter. Keep in mind that a new investigation had begun, with those same charges of sexual abuse, and Joe Pa never cut this guy loose. At some point you have to say to yourself, this is more than hearsay, this is something solid, and I need to sever the relationship between this guy and Penn State football. It never happened. Paterno, knowing what he knew, still allowed this man to represent Penn State football.

 

Now ask yourself again, Should Joe Paterno be fired?

 

Sandusky Visited Prospect After Penn St. Letters

 

In the wake of Penn State football legend Jerry Sandusky being criminally charged with 40 counts of sexual abuse of children, including the rape of at least one 10-year-old boy in the Penn State locker room, it has been widely surmised that Sandusky was no longer an active member of a Penn State program inexorably connected to now-fired head coach Joe Paterno.

 

But thanks to a stunning revelation in Greenville, South Carolina, today, it appears Paterno and now-former Penn State recruiting coordinator Mike McQueary, both of whom knew of Sandusky’s child rape in their own locker room in 2002, had kept Sandusky on as a Penn State football recruiter perhaps until the day he was arrested last Friday. (And then quickly released by State College authorities on unsecured bond - meaning he didn’t have to put up a dime to earn his freedom.)

 

This week a highly touted high school linebacker in South Carolina, Adam Ah Ching, told South Carolina news outlet WYFF-TV that Sandusky, who was also spotted in the Penn State football facility three times last week, was recruiting him on behalf of Penn State.--SBB

 

McQueary is now on administrative leave. PSU is paying him not to work. This leads me to believe he knows and can say something that would inflict further damage on the school. That's the only reason I can think of for not firing him, but I still don't expect to see him after the season ends. They will work out some type of hush deal that allows him to walk away and still be financially comfortable.

[KiLaSix9+ 398]

McQueary is now on administrative leave. PSU is paying him not to work. This leads me to believe he knows and can say something that would inflict further damage on the school. That's the only reason I can think of for not firing him, but I still don't expect to see him after the season ends. They will work out some type of hush deal that allows him to walk away and still be financially comfortable.

It could also be to avoid a lawsuit from McQueary being that he is a whistle blower and they have laws to protect individuals in his position.

[oochymp 2,393]

You know, the more I think about it, the only thing that really bothers me about what's gone on is that McQueary is still getting paid by PSU, and I think I'm channeling that into defending JoePa. I would not argue that JoePa did the right thing (and yes, there is a difference between doing the right thing and not doing the wrong thing, to this point I've been arguing that JoePa has not done anything wrong, but it's equally true that he hasn't done anything right) any ignorance JoePa had of what went on had to have been intentional on his part, and in this situation that's just wrong. I'm not saying JoePa had to do his own investigation, but he should have at least talked with Sandusky and gotten him off Penn State property and talked with McQueary to make sure he was satisfied with what the University's response, which if McQueary has even a shred of humanity he wouldn't, and helping McQueary get to the proper authorities. I don't think JoePa needed to go to the police by himself because all he had was a suspicion, but I do think he should have encouraged McQueary to go to the police as an eyewitness. Once McQueary is gone I think I'll be satisfied with the reaction, I just would have preferred seeing the board get rid of everyone involved at the same time rather than wait until you can work out deals with some of them. As for why McQueary is still around, I really don't think the whistleblower law applies because the action would be based on a failure to report to the police, not based on the report he made with the school officials, I'm not even sure that his report would fall under the whistleblower law because it doesn't seem like he sought the administration, it looks like Paterno reported to the administration then McQueary was called in. I think it has to be about what McQueary knows about the administration covering it up, and that's just not an acceptable reason for me.

 

I don't think this is a case for the NCAA to bring up the death penalty, which I've seen a few people call for, at least from what's come out so far, because this wasn't a systematic activity on the part of the football team, it was a systematic activity of one member of the coaching staff. I do think anyone who knew about it should be gone, and if it comes out that there was a systematic cover up that involved more than just the school administration then I think you might consider shutting the program down, but only to the end that everyone involved in the cover up is removed, but I think that end can be accomplished through a much less destructive method.

 

Oh, and I gotta say (generally, since I think every response to my posts have done it) great job of ignoring the bulk of my points to address the one you feel like taking on, I look forward to seeing what you pull out of this post to respond to.

Edited November 12, 2011 by oochymp

[rzb+ 367]

As much as I feel for the victims in all of this, I feel for the seniors today as well. They spent four years under JoePa and can't have their last home game with him because of something that happened years before they were on campus. Doesn't seem right but that's the way it is.

 

PSU needs to clean house, plain and simple. I understand they need someone to take over the team for the remainder of the season but with something this big, football should honestly take an immediate backseat.

[WindyCitySports 407]

Time to get back to football today. Makes me happy because I'm so frustrated with all of this crap.

[Anthony 78]

Source: Bradley Contacts NFL Coach About Job

 

A source close to the Penn State football program informed me today that interim Penn State head football coach Tom Bradley has reached out to the head coach of an NFL team to inquire about future employment. In the aftermath of Joe Paterno’s ouster earlier this week, Bradley was subsequently named caretaker of the disgraced football program. Since that change, the source indicated Bradley has personally contacted Indianapolis Colts head coach Jim Caldwell about attaining a job in the future.

 

Source: SBB