Trayvon Martin

[Thanatos 2,847]

You're pretty dense if you cant see the area between "Even if it can't be proved 100% in court, its pretty clear he's not innocent" and "the courts set him free so we should send out a mob to kill him!"

 

You're pretty dense if you think I was saying there was no area between the two.

 

Also, yay for bringing insults in!

[BwareDWare94 723]

Martin had no gun and it was unlikely he'd have actually killed Zimmerman even if he attacked him. Zimmerman shouldn't have had a gun on a him. That's the only thing I know. You don't get to carry guns in this country just so you can kill some kid if he attacks you. That's not how you stop somebody from attacking you. Sorry, I know you might die. It's not like I never got into a fight with somebody before. Ever. It's not like they weren't able to shoot me because they had no gun. Sorry. You're just an unlucky kid. Say hello to my lead-le friend.

 

Also, Zimmerman ignored instructions. He had no right to approach Martin. I'm sorry, Thanatos, but you're wrong in this case. There is no innocence in Zimmerman. He brought the entire situation upon himself and should be punished for it.

[SteVo+ 3,702]

He should be thrown in jail for just being a fucking idiot. The cops told him SPECIFICALLY not to confront the kid. He acted like my 12 year old brother when told not to do something, still wanting to do it.

 

This seems a bit of a stretch, based on the 911 call I've heard. All I heard the operator say was (in reference to following Trayvon), "We don't need you to do that, sir." That's not an imperative order. In fact, it's rather passive, and considering Zimmerman was a neighborhood watchmen, I'm not surprised he kept following the kid. Exactly what happened after we'll never know.

[Thanatos 2,847]

Martin had no gun and it was unlikely he'd have actually killed Zimmerman even if he attacked him. Zimmerman shouldn't have had a gun on a him. That's the only thing I know. You don't get to carry guns in this country just so you can kill some kid if he attacks you. That's not how you stop somebody from attacking you. Sorry, I know you might die. It's not like I never got into a fight with somebody before. Ever. It's not like they weren't able to shoot me because they had no gun. Sorry. You're just an unlucky kid. Say hello to my lead-le friend.

 

Also, Zimmerman ignored instructions. He had no right to approach Martin. I'm sorry, Thanatos, but you're wrong in this case. There is no innocence in Zimmerman. He brought the entire situation upon himself and should be punished for it.

 

I think it's cool how you're willing to convict of man of murder when an eyewitness says he was getting his head beat into the concrete. You have no idea what happened, is the entire point. If the cops told you not to worry about some guy, and then 30 seconds later, you see him attempting to break in the front door of a house, you very well might yell at him or something, even though you were told 30 seconds earlier not to worry about it. Situations change. We don't know what happened in the intervening time period.

 

Even if he approached the kid directly against orders, merely because he was concerned about Trayvon doing something illegal, if Trayvon initiated the assault, then you're still willing to convict Zimmerman of murder?

 

You seem to have this idea that you should wait until you actually see the other guy pull a weapon. If he waits till Martin pulls a knife or a gun, as he thought he was trying to do, (a pretty good assumption if you ask me, if he's beating the crap out of him and then reaches inside his shirt), then he dies.

 

If someone is on top of me, beating my head into the pavement, and I think they're going for a weapon, be it a knife or a gun, I am going to shoot them.

 

Zimmerman was licensed to carry a gun, he was perfectly in the right to be carrying.

 

You do realize that he could have killed him even without a gun if he beat him into the concrete enough? It's not very unlikely, it's not even all that difficult.

 

*If* what Zimmerman said is true, is actually what happened, he did not commit murder.

 

This is the same guy who rallied the community and got justice for a homeless black guy that was beat up by a cop. He went door-to-door letting people know what had happened, and bringing enough publicity to the case that the cops had to do something about it. He doesn't think the cops do enough to stop crime, and he has good reason to believe that, given what already occurred in his neighborhood.

 

Also, as SteVo pointed out, the media is reporting that they gave him direct orders, but all that was said was "We don't need you to do that, sir."

[Favre4Ever+ 4,476]

If George Zimmerman doesn't get out of his vehicle, he doesn't get his ass beat and he doesn't kill Trayvon Martin.

 

No need for a novella-type response.

[Milla4Prez63 678]

I don't think they'll be able to stick anything to get Zimmerman for 2nd degree murder. But the self defense law here in Florida needs some shaping IMO. You don't deserve to claim self defense if you are the person confronting. The self defense law should be there incase you are attacked and fear for your life, not for being able to kill the other person who is beating your ass after you confronted them.

 

Now, we don't know 100% for sure Zimmerman confronted Martin, but I just doubt it didn't happen that way.

[Thanatos 2,847]

If George Zimmerman doesn't get out of his vehicle, he doesn't get his ass beat and he doesn't kill Trayvon Martin.

 

No need for a novella-type response.

 

If a guy doesn't walk down a dark alley, he doesn't get beat up either.

 

But I don't convict the guy because he acted dumb.

 

I don't think they'll be able to stick anything to get Zimmerman for 2nd degree murder. But the self defense law here in Florida needs some shaping IMO. You don't deserve to claim self defense if you are the person confronting. The self defense law should be there incase you are attacked and fear for your life, not for being able to kill the other person who is beating your ass after you confronted them.

 

Now, we don't know 100% for sure Zimmerman confronted Martin, but I just doubt it didn't happen that way.

 

So lets say he did, for hypothetical reasons.

 

Let's say Zimmerman went up to him, asked him, rather roughly, what he was doing, and then Trayvon tripped him, knocked him to the ground in some way, and started beating his head in.

 

Then Zimmerman thinks he is reaching for a weapon, and so he shoots him.

 

What do you think Zimmerman should be guilty of?

 

The problem here is that if Zimmerman's story is true, he doesn't kill Trayvon because he was getting his ass beat. He killed him because he thought Trayvon was going for a weapon. He specifically mentions that, that it was only when Trayvon reached inside his clothes that he shot him.

 

This is not even mentioning, that if a guy is on top of me and slamming my head into the concrete, I am going to do everything in my power to stop him. You can kill someone that way, without any weapon. If I can't throw him off physically, then I'm going to shoot him. The guy is trying to kill me, for all I know. It's obviously not a 1-1 relation, because I wouldn't confront the guy, if that is what happened, but granting the hypothetical that George Zimmerman's story is true, he isn't guilty of a crime.

[Favre4Ever+ 4,476]

Getting off charges for killing somebody because of self-defense after you provoke the situation in which you feel threatened would certainly be laughable.

 

There is no way to prove my opinion, but it is just that... An opinion.

 

I believe at this point in time that Zimmerman had every intention of shooting and killing Martin.

 

He sees Martin walking around this neighborhood. He (Zimmerman) is following him (Martin) around the neighborhood in his vehicle. Martin realizes that Zimmerman is following and watching him, gets freaked out...

 

Zimmerman calls 911 and the dispatcher tells Zimmerman that he doesn't need to do that. Zimmerman mumbles something about "always getting away"... Dispatcher tells Zimmerman (or asks) him where he wants to meet the police...

 

Zimmerman makes a comment to the dispatcher about Martin running away.

 

At this point... If Zimmerman drives away waiting for police. Nobody is dead. Nobody is beaten up.

 

But after he hangs up the phone is the biggest question mark that night. And no, I most certainly do not believe his story completely... lol. Talk about being gullible.

 

What I THINK happened is that he hung up that phone, got out of his vehicle. Found and confronted Martin.

 

Martin realizes that this is the guy who has been following and watching him.. He's probably yelling at Zimmerman. Asking him what HE is doing and why he is doing it.

 

I then believe, although there is no evidence backing up this portion... That Zimmerman actually let Martin charge him.. take him to the ground, and beat him up before shooting Martin so that his self defense claim would at least test the courts.

 

Zimmerman wanted this shady character roaming his neighborhood dead. He took the law into his own hands, and was going to make sure this one didn't get away.

 

 

 

GUILTY. First Degree Murder.

 

Do I think that is what he is going to be convicted of? Absolutely not. But I believe that Zimmerman had this entire plan circulating in his head from the moment he began following Trayvon Martin.

[Omerta+ 1,206]

There are a couple things here. Instead of being objective try putting yourself in Trayvon Martin's shoes. You were watching a basketball game at a friends and had two opportunities previous to cause whatever trouble you wanted by walking there and to the store.

 

You didnt.

 

So you are on your way back and some guy approaches you and asks you what you are doing while he has the COVER or protection of a car. You have nothing. So he asks him his question or what have you and Trayvon says one of two things. He explains what he is doing OR he says fuck off. Either way he is entitled to this since it is really none of Zimmerman's business.

 

So I start to run towards an alley because he has the advantage of cover and as far from my friends house as I am the only thing I can get on my side is the advantage of concealment. So I run into this alley and think OK now I am just going to wait until said car leaves, because by all rights he is a fucking nosy prick and I dont want anymore contact with him.

 

At this point how is a kid running away an aggressor with the consequences of loss of life being a viable option on the table.

 

Ok continuing on I am in the alley on a phone probably telling somebody about this nosy asshole or talking to my girlfriend about how she looks in Victoria Secret or whatever. Next thing I know this neighborhoods fuckin batman shows up and continues to ask questions. Yeah now I am pissed off. GO THE FUCK HOME DUDE, would have probably been the first thing out of my mouth. He would have said I THINK you are here to cause trouble at which point I would have gotten furious and a shouting match would have ensued.

 

After that yeah a fight may have occured and ended with less than awesome results that being said though that dude stepped out of his car. Trayvon had a perfectly logical train of thought in my opinion and then this fuckin fat batman wannabe decides that the cops are inept and he is going to be the man to right the wrongs of society.

 

 

Fuck that. Sit him on the hot seat. It is Florida he can still be sentenced to that.

[Thanatos 2,847]

Getting off charges for killing somebody because of self-defense after you provoke the situation in which you feel threatened would certainly be laughable.

 

There is no way to prove my opinion, but it is just that... An opinion.

 

I believe at this point in time that Zimmerman had every intention of shooting and killing Martin.

 

He sees Martin walking around this neighborhood. He (Zimmerman) is following him (Martin) around the neighborhood in his vehicle. Martin realizes that Zimmerman is following and watching him, gets freaked out...

 

Zimmerman calls 911 and the dispatcher tells Zimmerman that he doesn't need to do that. Zimmerman mumbles something about "always getting away"... Dispatcher tells Zimmerman (or asks) him where he wants to meet the police...

 

Zimmerman makes a comment to the dispatcher about Martin running away.

 

At this point... If Zimmerman drives away waiting for police. Nobody is dead. Nobody is beaten up.

 

But after he hangs up the phone is the biggest question mark that night. And no, I most certainly do not believe his story completely... lol. Talk about being gullible.

 

What I THINK happened is that he hung up that phone, got out of his vehicle. Found and confronted Martin.

 

Martin realizes that this is the guy who has been following and watching him.. He's probably yelling at Zimmerman. Asking him what HE is doing and why he is doing it.

 

I then believe, although there is no evidence backing up this portion... That Zimmerman actually let Martin charge him.. take him to the ground, and beat him up before shooting Martin so that his self defense claim would at least test the courts.

 

Zimmerman wanted this shady character roaming his neighborhood dead. He took the law into his own hands, and was going to make sure this one didn't get away.

 

 

 

GUILTY. First Degree Murder.

 

Do I think that is what he is going to be convicted of? Absolutely not. But I believe that Zimmerman had this entire plan circulating in his head from the moment he began following Trayvon Martin.

 

Well that's fine that that is your opinion, but it doesn't have any evidence backing it up at all.

 

To clarify, I am not saying I believe his story. I was arguing with Bware, who said that even if his story is true, he's still guilty of murder, which I disagree with, so I clearly stated that, hypothetically, if his story was true... etc.

 

There are a couple things here. Instead of being objective try putting yourself in Trayvon Martin's shoes. You were watching a basketball game at a friends and had two opportunities previous to cause whatever trouble you wanted by walking there and to the store.

 

You didnt.

 

So you are on your way back and some guy approaches you and asks you what you are doing while he has the COVER or protection of a car. You have nothing. So he asks him his question or what have you and Trayvon says one of two things. He explains what he is doing OR he says fuck off. Either way he is entitled to this since it is really none of Zimmerman's business.

 

So I start to run towards an alley because he has the advantage of cover and as far from my friends house as I am the only thing I can get on my side is the advantage of concealment. So I run into this alley and think OK now I am just going to wait until said car leaves, because by all rights he is a fucking nosy prick and I dont want anymore contact with him.

 

At this point how is a kid running away an aggressor with the consequences of loss of life being a viable option on the table.

 

Ok continuing on I am in the alley on a phone probably telling somebody about this nosy asshole or talking to my girlfriend about how she looks in Victoria Secret or whatever. Next thing I know this neighborhoods fuckin batman shows up and continues to ask questions. Yeah now I am pissed off. GO THE FUCK HOME DUDE, would have probably been the first thing out of my mouth. He would have said I THINK you are here to cause trouble at which point I would have gotten furious and a shouting match would have ensued.

 

After that yeah a fight may have occured and ended with less than awesome results that being said though that dude stepped out of his car. Trayvon had a perfectly logical train of thought in my opinion and then this fuckin fat batman wannabe decides that the cops are inept and he is going to be the man to right the wrongs of society.

 

 

Fuck that. Sit him on the hot seat. It is Florida he can still be sentenced to that.

 

That could easily be what happened. But we don't know what happened. You willing to potentially sentence an innocent man to death, a man that, if I might point out once again, has ample reason to believe the cops don't do their job, merely because that may be what happened?

Edited May 19, 2012 by Thanatos19

[Milla4Prez63 678]

If Zimmerman was REALLY worried that Martin was going for a weapon, he has more of a case, but it still doesn't seem right to me. I just don't believe in self defense murder in a provoked fight, unless you were all but dead. But there is just too many variables and a perfect solution to the law will never be found.

[Omerta+ 1,206]

Well that's fine that that is your opinion, but it doesn't have any evidence backing it up at all.

 

To clarify, I am not saying I believe his story. I was arguing with Bware, who said that even if his story is true, he's still guilty of murder, which I disagree with, so I clearly stated that, hypothetically, if his story was true... etc.

 

 

 

That could easily be what happened. But we don't know what happened. You willing to potentially sentence an innocent man to death, a man that, if I might point out once again, has ample reason to believe the cops don't do their job, merely because that may be what happened?

 

Yes for the fact that is he stays in his car this is a non story. The End. But he decided he had to get out of the car and press the action. Any events or conflicts after that is his fault. He felt like he had to be a neighborhood Batman and take the law into his own hands. So what if the cops are inept, is it now up to the people in the town to be judge,jury, and executioner ? Just because you feel the cops are ineffective does not give you that right.

 

And yes because what becomes the precedence in Florida after this. Mark my words this will not be the last one if this asshole is not made an example of. This has to be stepped on HARD. And I would not feel the least bit guilty because as stated thousands of times if he would have just stayed in his car he would be chillin at his house if he was a normal guy.

[Favre4Ever+ 4,476]

Well that's fine that that is your opinion, but it doesn't have any evidence backing it up at all.

 

From what I understand, there is no proof going the other way either. How many witnesses are there that saw Zimmerman leave his vehicle? How many witnesses saw Martin charge Zimmerman?

 

You have witnesses who see Martin beating up on Zimmerman, and Zimmerman crying for help. Zimmerman than busts a cap, and is calm and calculated directly afterward directing witnesses to call police...

 

I dunno about you, but if I shoot somebody I am gonna be a bit freaked out.

[Thanatos 2,847]

From what I understand, there is no proof going the other way either. How many witnesses are there that saw Zimmerman leave his vehicle? How many witnesses saw Martin charge Zimmerman?

 

You have witnesses who see Martin beating up on Zimmerman, and Zimmerman crying for help. Zimmerman than busts a cap, and is calm and calculated directly afterward directing witnesses to call police...

 

I dunno about you, but if I shoot somebody I am gonna be a bit freaked out.

 

That's my entire point though.

 

Not saying you are wrong, just that we don't know what happened.

 

I lean towards it being Zimmerman's fault myself, just my instincts have kicked in with the entirety of the media crowing for his conviction and the Black Panthers putting a bounty out on him before the trial even starts.

 

Let the jury do their job, if they find him guilty, then by all means convict him.

 

Yes for the fact that is he stays in his car this is a non story. The End. But he decided he had to get out of the car and press the action. Any events or conflicts after that is his fault. He felt like he had to be a neighborhood Batman and take the law into his own hands. So what if the cops are inept, is it now up to the people in the town to be judge,jury, and executioner ? Just because you feel the cops are ineffective does not give you that right.

 

And yes because what becomes the precedence in Florida after this. Mark my words this will not be the last one if this asshole is not made an example of. This has to be stepped on HARD. And I would not feel the least bit guilty because as stated thousands of times if he would have just stayed in his car he would be chillin at his house if he was a normal guy.

 

No. Just no.

 

Or at least not to a "convictable" degree.

 

He felt like he had to be a neighborhood Batman? He was part of the Neighborhood Watch.

 

He wasn't being judge, jury, and executioner, I'm merely saying that due to the fact that the cops already let one person in their neighborhood get beat up, by one of their own, and did nothing about it until Zimmerman brought pressure on them to do so, he may have felt that this was another case where that might happen.

 

So he could be merely suspicious that this is another time where the cops are just blowing him off, and he thinks this guy is doing something, so he gets out to investigate, or maybe he thinks he sees Trayvon trying to break into someone's house, in which case, you would expect him to simply drive away, knowing the guy is sitting there breaking into someone's house?

 

We have no clue what happened, that is the whole point, you are making all sorts of leaps based on knowledge we simply don't have. You do not know what took place. Do not call for someone to be made an example of when you don't know whether or not he's even guilty.

Edited May 20, 2012 by Thanatos19

[Duck Fallas 209]

I am so happy that our legal system does not rely on "ifs" and relies on evidence, because if we convicted people on ifs, the nation would be even more f'd.

 

For the record: I truly believe that if I shot a man dead, I could go immediately from the scene and grab a bite to eat. As I said in another thread, I don't hold anyone's life in too high a regard.

[Favre4Ever+ 4,476]

I am so happy that our legal system does not rely on "ifs" and relies on evidence, because if we convicted people on ifs, the nation would be even more f'd.

 

For the record: I truly believe that if I shot a man dead, I could go immediately from the scene and grab a bite to eat. As I said in another thread, I don't hold anyone's life in too high a regard.

 

It's too bad that ifs get murderers off death row.

[Shotgun 442]

After the initial reaction is over and so much information has come out about both sides, shouldn't the general public be kind of over being so upset about this? Maybe this is my bitterness talking but it just seems to me like some retard killed a wanna-be gangster. It's upsetting to hear about it at first with all the media bias out there, but frankly I don't think the world is missing much. Plenty of other murderers, pedo's, and general criminals the news could be talking about, but I guess there's nothing quite as appealing to the masses as creating a story that makes America look more racist than it is.

[Omerta+ 1,206]

That's my entire point though.

 

Not saying you are wrong, just that we don't know what happened.

 

I lean towards it being Zimmerman's fault myself, just my instincts have kicked in with the entirety of the media crowing for his conviction and the Black Panthers putting a bounty out on him before the trial even starts.

 

Let the jury do their job, if they find him guilty, then by all means convict him.

 

 

 

No. Just no.

 

Or at least not to a "convictable" degree.

 

He felt like he had to be a neighborhood Batman? He was part of the Neighborhood Watch.

 

He wasn't being judge, jury, and executioner, I'm merely saying that due to the fact that the cops already let one person in their neighborhood get beat up, by one of their own, and did nothing about it until Zimmerman brought pressure on them to do so, he may have felt that this was another case where that might happen.

 

So he could be merely suspicious that this is another time where the cops are just blowing him off, and he thinks this guy is doing something, so he gets out to investigate, or maybe he thinks he sees Trayvon trying to break into someone's house, in which case, you would expect him to simply drive away, knowing the guy is sitting there breaking into someone's house?

 

We have no clue what happened, that is the whole point, you are making all sorts of leaps based on knowledge we simply don't have. You do not know what took place. Do not call for someone to be made an example of when you don't know whether or not he's even guilty.

 

those three bolded parts. He thought which was dumb of him to begin with. Second he is neighborhood watch like you said, what is their motto OBSERVE and REPORT!!!!!

 

The dick head should have stayed in his car period. That is a fact. maybe the only one undeniable in this case.

 

And I have that fact yes he should be made an example of. If this stands this will not be the last we hear of it, believe that.

 

And I fI am him I pray for jail because on the outside their are plenty of people who would be upset he is free with a certain moral flexibility that would not have a second thought of giving him a taste os his own brand of vigilante justice.

 

At least in jail they can isolate you.

[әightninә. 39]

Please explain how he looks life threatening, please.

 

Edited May 25, 2012 by әightninә.

[Duck Fallas 209]

It's too bad that ifs get murderers off death row.

If's can also get innocent people off death row.

[oochymp 2,393]

It's too bad that ifs get murderers off death row.

yeah, it really is a shame we can't kill people based on strong suspicions

[blotsfan 2,112]

If's can also get innocent people off death row.

But you support stalking people who look suspicious and murdering them at the first sign of aggression?

[Thanatos 2,847]

Please explain how he looks life threatening, please.

 

Cause everyone knows all criminals look threatening....

 

What was the point of this post?

 

He looks in shape. Life-threatening? No. He's buying snacks.

 

That proves absolutely zilch one way or the other.

[Duck Fallas 209]

But you support stalking people who look suspicious and murdering them at the first sign of aggression?

I support trying to keep a neighborhood clean and defending my life by taking another.

[Favre4Ever+ 4,476]

I support trying to keep a neighborhood clean and defending my life by taking another.

 

Ignorance really is bliss.