Was AP the most deserving?

[oochymp 2,393]

Like i said. When has a ROOKIE, with a ehh oline, OK weapons at skill positions, and a complete shit defense, come in and STILL make the playoffs. In the NFC, which of late has been the better conference in terms of better teams. Stats wise, you cant make a case for MVP. Or just stats i should say. You take out RG3, Redskins win maybe, MAYBE 3 games. You take AP out and they could still win 6 games at least.

so are you saying it should be easier for a rookie to win MVP? and as far as his supporting cast, that oline was definitely solid, nothing spectacular, but they never put RG3 in horrendous situations, for targets in the passing game, Pierre Garcon turned out spectacular performances every time he was healthy, Santana Moss put together his best season in years, and Leonard Hankerson and Josh Morgan proved to be more than capable options, add in a solid pair of TEs in Fred Davis and Logan Paulsen and RG3 had plenty of targets in the passing game, and that defense may not have been great, but they were solid and really come on strong in the second half of the season when the team went on a tear

 

Yall forget, it was PONDER who beat the 49ers defense. Not AP. Just saying. I say that to show proof they've won games without AP dominating or even having 100 yards. If u disagree, just watch the highlights of that game and tell me it wasnt Ponder. And we all know how great San Frans D is.

and Kirk Cousins came in and lead a comeback win against Baltimore (the Super Bowl Champions) then the following week put up almost 40 points against Cleveland

 

With RG3, Washingtons rush attack went from 25th to 1st in one year. And this is as a ROOKIE RG3 did this. Stats wise, for their positions, AP wins that no doubt. But its more then stats. Look at Washingtons team OVERALL, and then look at Minnesotas and tell me Minnesota isnt the better team?

and let's just ignore the fact that the Skins had the second best RB in the league in rushing yards

Edited February 21, 2013 by oochymp

[56AceInDaPlace 110]

so are you saying it should be easier for a rookie to win MVP? and as far as his supporting cast, that oline was definitely solid, nothing spectacular, but they never put RG3 in horrendous situations, for targets in the passing game, Pierre Garcon turned out spectacular performances every time he was healthy, Santana Moss put together his best season in years, and Leonard Hankerson and Josh Morgan proved to be more than capable options, add in a solid pair of TEs in Fred Davis and Logan Paulsen and RG3 had plenty of targets in the passing game, and that defense may not have been great, but they were solid and really come on strong in the second half of the season when the team went on a tear

 

No i didnt say that. RG3's case, is rare, and this is the only time ive ever seen and said a rookie should win MVP. He deserved it. He did what no rookie has ever done. With a below average team and shitty D like i said. Thats why compared to AP ( second best rushing season ever, but other Rb's have done better, and no rookie has done what RG3 has, is another reason why.

 

Like i said, OK, options. Neither of those WR's are top 20 or 25 in their positions.

 

and Kirk Cousins came in and lead a comeback win against Baltimore (the Super Bowl Champions) then the following week put up almost 40 points against Cleveland

 

Dont forget without RG3, Morris wasnt as effective with Cousins. Against the Browns, Morris went for 27 rushes for 87 yards. 3.2 a carry. RG3 seemly MADE Morris. Without RG3, Morris wouldnt of had the season he did.

 

and let's just ignore the fact that the Skins had the second best RB in the league in rushing yards

 

See post above ^

Edited February 21, 2013 by 56AceInDaPlace

[Glanvilles Grits 142]

Ok so if u want to scratch that go head. End of the day, you take out AP, RG3 nd Luck from their teams, Vikings would be better then all three is what im saying. Rg3 and Luck were the TRUE MVP's of their team and were the MAIN reason for making the playoffs. Washington 28th in total D, Indy 26th. again, Vikings D for MOST OF THE YEAR, was top 10. A few bad games slid them to 16th.

 

I've got to touch on this comment Ace. So you believe that if Adrian Peterson isn't on the Vikings, that's still a playoff team? Without reading the entire topic yet, I'm not sure if you have already elaborated on that statement earlier and whether or not you're just re-iterating it.

 

I think to say Peterson isn't as much of an MVP as RG3 and Luck is a little bit of hogwash. Christian Ponder isn't carrying the team to the playoffs, and Toby Gerhart certainly didn't do that last season. I don't think you can take one game (the 49ers as you are saying) and blow it up in size and say because of that game, Christian Ponder could have led the Vikings to the playoffs. Without Peterson doing what he did, no way do they beat the Bears this past season, no way do they beat the Packers in the last game of the season either.

 

Edit: If they don't win those two games, no way do the Vikings make the playoffs. Ponder performed well in the Packers game, but Peterson added 199 yards to the offense. The Bears game was terrible, Ponder threw for 90 yards and played flat out terrible. Peterson rushed for 200+ that game and 2 or 3 touchdowns.

 

There's no question in my mind that Peterson is the MVP this year.

Edited February 21, 2013 by Rain Man

[56AceInDaPlace 110]

I've got to touch on this comment Ace. So you believe that if Adrian Peterson isn't on the Vikings, that's still a playoff team? Without reading the entire topic yet, I'm not sure if you have already elaborated on that statement earlier and whether or not you're just re-iterating it.

 

I think to say Peterson isn't as much of an MVP as RG3 and Luck is a little bit of hogwash. Christian Ponder isn't carrying the team to the playoffs, and Toby Gerhart certainly didn't do that last season.

 

Naw, my argument on that was. If u take, RG3 and AP off their teams. Vikings would win more games then Washington would. Due to Vikings having better peices and more of a team then Washington has. RG3 made Morris, and pretty much turned around the Redskins. I was surprised by how good and big of a impact he had. If u had to pick a player based on impactfor his team. It had to be RG3. Luck was second. He basically did the same thing RG3 did. RG3 just had better stats.

 

Just seen your edit. Bears argument i could see and agree with. However, the Packers i disagree. their rush D and D overall, pretty much sucked this year. An average RB could have a solid game vs the Packers. And Ponder could pass on them as well. Not Manning numbers, but enough to get the win.

Edited February 21, 2013 by 56AceInDaPlace

[oochymp 2,393]

I'd take four solid WRs over a top ten WR with three garbage players next to him, just ask the Lions how that works

 

as for Morris' performance with Cousins, first off who gives a fuck? the offense still put up 38 points and the team still won, and no shit the RB didn't have his best game when he didn't have the running QB starting, the run D was able to focus on him, and he still put up 87 yards, which isn't exactly awful, and oh yeah, Cousins threw for 329 yards and 2 TDs, and did I mention the offense put up 38 points and the team won? while the guy you'd name as MVP was on the bench watching? and let's not even address the great comeback drive Cousins had against the Ravens to win that game

 

and yes, RG3 made the RB who was a rookie drafted in the sixth round that beat out two veterans in training camp for the starting job and put up 1613 yards averaging almost 5 ypc, yeah, that was all on the QB

 

EDIT: also, you didn't seem to address the fact that you're arguing there should be a lower statistical standard for rookies to win MVP

Edited February 21, 2013 by oochymp

[56AceInDaPlace 110]

I'd take four solid WRs over a top ten WR with three garbage players next to him, just ask the Lions how that works

 

as for Morris' performance with Cousins, first off who gives a fuck? the offense still put up 38 points and the team still won, and no shit the RB didn't have his best game when he didn't have the running QB starting, the run D was able to focus on him, and he still put up 87 yards, which isn't exactly awful, and oh yeah, Cousins threw for 329 yards and 2 TDs, and did I mention the offense put up 38 points and the team won? while the guy you'd name as MVP was on the bench watching? and let's not even address the great comeback drive Cousins had against the Ravens to win that game

 

and yes, RG3 made the RB who was a rookie drafted in the sixth round that beat out two veterans in training camp for the starting job and put up 1613 yards averaging almost 5 ypc, yeah, that was all on the QB

 

My point was RG3 made Morris. If Morris had to rush 27 times to get 87 yards, i think RG3 made him, and def was the reason he had such big games. Cousins is nice, no doubt. Morris solid. But to say Morris a 1600 yard back because of him? I doubt that seriously. Now if Cousins, starts next year and RG3 stays out hurt. Then Morris comes in and has another 1600 yard season, or EVEN 1500 yards. Ill admit im wrong on that.

 

No on the stats for rookies for MVP. People worry about stats so much its stupid. Its one aspect of the players game that u judge on. Impact is another. I look at it as, Washington was shit before RG3. Didnt have too many changes. Nothing MAJOR except RG3. Then boom, playoffs. With a 28th ranked defense, a rushing attack that went from shit to the best. If u take out RG3, we all know Washington is in the hunt for worst team in the league. Cant say the same about Vikings without AP. Thats my case for it. Now im done with it. If i keep replying, eventually, all of us will be arguing the same argument, when it could just end now lol. I believe RG3 should have won and not AP. Most disagree, thats how it is.

Edited February 21, 2013 by 56AceInDaPlace

[Glanvilles Grits 142]

I edited my post, just so you see it:

 

Without Peterson doing what he did, no way do they beat the Bears this past season, no way do they beat the Packers in the last game of the season either.

 

Edit: If they don't win those two games, no way do the Vikings make the playoffs. Ponder performed well in the Packers game, but Peterson added 199 yards to the offense. The Bears game was terrible, Ponder threw for 90 yards and played flat out terrible. Peterson rushed for 200+ that game and 2 or 3 touchdowns.

 

There's no question in my mind that Peterson is the MVP this year.

 

 

Also, your last post about RG3 making Alfred Morris successful, I don't think that's very accurate at all. Cousins started one game for the Redskins and it was against Cleveland.

 

Cleveland: 27 Carries 87 Yards 2 TD

 

Yards per carry down? Sure, but he still ran well that game and Cousins was playing so well that the Redskins were throwing the ball quite a bit. I think it's tough to base an argument on the basis of Morris not being as good when Cousins was in the game.

 

The two games Cousins entered briefly I believe the Redskins were either playing from behind or tied up, Morris didn't get the ball like he had been. I'm not saying that RG3 didn't help improve the Washington running game either, he certainly did, but I don't think you can say that Morris wasn't absolutely spectacular, the guy can straight up run the football any way they ask him. I just think Morris was just as much an MVP for that football team. If Cousins were to play a few more games, you would have seen Morris perform just as he did when RG3 was in the game. We can't know though, because it hasn't happened yet.

 

Basically what I'm also saying is that Alfred Morris was indeed a huge change for the Redskins. That defense wasn't too bad either. I think you're giving very little credit to the Redskins defense, and a bit too much to RG3 right now. He's a great player, he's the best player on that team, but Alfred Morris acted as just as much of stepping stone for the team as Griffin.

Edited February 21, 2013 by Rain Man

[Thanatos 2,847]

Mikey, this is pretty much the dumbest string of posts I've seen out of you, and that's saying quite a bit.

 

First of all, RG3 and Andrew Luck both had significantly easier schedules than the Vikes. The fact that you would give it to Luck over AP or even Peyton is just so hilariously wrong.

 

Second of all, if that season doesn't get AP the MVP award, there is nothing a RB can do that will get them an MVP award and you might as well call it the MVQ award.

 

And thirdly, it was most definitely the best season ever, or at least it was better than CJ's season, (Dickerson might still have an argument, don't know enough about his season), considering his QB situation and the fact that people were stacking eight in the box and he was still running for 10+ yards a touch. It's not even surprising that you tried to bring CJ into this. Just more of your homerism.

 

Luck was the 3rd best rookie QB of the rookie QBs. Yet somehow you want to give him the MVP? He dug them out of a lot of holes, yes, but he dug a lot of those holes himself.

 

RG3 had a great season, but its not even in the same universe as AP's season.

[oochymp 2,393]

My point was RG3 made Morris. If Morris had to rush 27 times to get 87 yards, i think RG3 made him, and def was the reason he had such big games. Cousins is nice, no doubt. Morris solid. But to say Morris a 1600 yard back because of him? I doubt that seriously. Now if Cousins, starts next year and RG3 stays out hurt. Then Morris comes in and has another 1600 yard season, or EVEN 1500 yards. Ill admit im wrong on that.

 

No on the stats for rookies for MVP. People worry about stats so much its stupid. Its one aspect of the players game that u judge on. Impact is another. I look at it as, Washington was shit before RG3. Didnt have too many changes. Nothing MAJOR except RG3. Then boom, playoffs. With a 28th ranked defense, a rushing attack that went from shit to the best. If u take out RG3, we all know Washington is in the hunt for worst team in the league. Cant say the same about Vikings without AP. Thats my case for it. Now im done with it. If i keep replying, eventually, all of us will be arguing the same argument, when it could just end now lol. I believe RG3 should have won and not AP. Most disagree, thats how it is.

RG3 certainly had an impact on Morris' performance, I've made that point elsewhere and I concede it here, but it's not like Morris was just some scrub who put up 1600 yards because he was playing behind Griffin, you don't put up 1600 yards regardless of who you're playing with without a pretty high level of baseline talent, and 87 yards is still pace for a 1400 yard season, which is still nothing to scoff at

 

as for the point about two aspects to a players game, I agree completely, but to be considered MVP you've gotta register well on both, which AD and Peyton did, RG3 and Luck didn't

[oochymp 2,393]

And thirdly, it was most definitely the best season ever, or at least it was better than CJ's season, (Dickerson might still have an argument, don't know enough about his season), considering his QB situation and the fact that people were stacking eight in the box and he was still running for 10+ yards a touch. It's not even surprising that you tried to bring CJ into this. Just more of your homerism.

okay, I'm going to take issue with this, the best season ever (may need to spin this off to another thread to avoid derailing this further) was OJ Simpson's 2,003 yards in 14 games, I've seen others in this thread refer to AD's season as the best ever, and I just had to say something

[56AceInDaPlace 110]

Mikey, this is pretty much the dumbest string of posts I've seen out of you, and that's saying quite a bit.

 

First of all, RG3 and Andrew Luck both had significantly easier schedules than the Vikes. The fact that you would give it to Luck over AP or even Peyton is just so hilariously wrong.

 

Second of all, if that season doesn't get AP the MVP award, there is nothing a RB can do that will get them an MVP award and you might as well call it the MVQ award.

 

And thirdly, it was most definitely the best season ever, or at least it was better than CJ's season, (Dickerson might still have an argument, don't know enough about his season), considering his QB situation and the fact that people were stacking eight in the box and he was still running for 10+ yards a touch. It's not even surprising that you tried to bring CJ into this. Just more of your homerism.

 

LMAO, Yeah homerism.... Because AP only having 89 more rushing yards, but CJ having alot more receiving yards and more total TD's is totallyyyyyy homerism... AP didnt have the better season between the two. If anything, you started this CJ argument between us AGAIN. My point in bringing him up was, if AP didnt even have the best season ever for a RB, why are people acting like he did?

Also for your first post ^, if i said that about CJ, ( if AP season doesnt win MVP , no RB will ever win it ) you would call me a homer, which u already did. You seem to take the only voices that agree with you here, and act like thats all that counts. You forget , there is a much much bigger world out there friend... Ive had many people agree with me outside of here, and even here. Dmac was one who agreed. So how am i a homer, if fans of other teams agree with me? Its not a crazy statement to make. So i think you just like going after me. Like i said. Its gotten old. Its one thing to come here, and debate with me. But every damn post with you starts with, "Mikey, this is the stupidest post ive seen u made", or u call me a homer. JUST BECAUSE U DISAGREE WITH ME. Lol. Shut the fuck up with that stuff from now on. If you disagree, dont even reply to my post. Because you always say the same shit. If i say some crazy shit, then u can call me out on it. Such as Locker is a top 10 QB. Something NO ONE, will agree with me on. But if i have other fans from other teams agreeing with me, here and BEYOND here, i wouldnt say i say stupid shit. You just disagree, big deal. Leave it at that. Dont try to insult me.

 

Luck was the 3rd best rookie QB of the rookie QBs. Yet somehow you want to give him the MVP? He dug them out of a lot of holes, yes, but he dug a lot of those holes himself.

 

I picked RG3 over Luck.

 

RG3 had a great season, but its not even in the same universe as AP's season.

 

Impact wise RG3 > AP

[oochymp 2,393]

okay, so let me ask this, if I'm willing to concede that RG3 may have had a slightly bigger impact on the Skins than AD had on the Vikings (which I'm not sure I'm willing to concede, but I'll pose in the interest of advancing the discussion) are you willing to concede that by all measures AD's individual performance was better than RG3's and you just don't care about?

Edited February 21, 2013 by oochymp

[ATL_Predator+ 1,196]

RG3>AP Impact wise?

 

 

You may not have anyone agree with you saying Jake Locker is a top 10 QB, but it's no different of a story saying RG3 had a bigger impact on his team than AP. Whether Alfred Morris is a product of RGIII doesn't really matter...he still produced this year in large fashion.

 

You can't say the same for Christian Ponder. AP stands head and shoulders above EVERYONE on the Vikings offense. Pierre Garcon, Fred Davis (before injury), Alfred Morris, Santana Moss, and the other Redskins TE's played a part in the success of RG3...and didn't force him to run the ball every single down. AP took the rock, ran behind his mind and made the most of it. After Harvin got hurt...the only other 'factor' was Kyle Rudolph in the redzone.

[Glanvilles Grits 142]

I believe Griffin is an absolute stud, we have all seen it. There's no one that can deny that fact. So I want to make it clear that's not my argument here. However, your argument is that Griffin is more important to his team than Peterson is to the Vikings, and I don't think there is anything to back that argument up right now. If another guy (Cousins) can come in to start for a team, perform just as well as the player named (RG3) and win the game for them, then how much of a difference is that guy (RG3) to the team?

 

I don't think any back on that Vikings roster could do anything close to what Peterson did, and I don't think any player on that roster can make up for a loss of Peterson (As seen last year).

[Thanatos 2,847]

Mikey, your homerism stems from the fact that you brought up CJ in a thread that had absolutely nothing to do with him, NOT that you think CJ's season was better.

 

I find it funny that your whole argument for RG3 is about impact on the team, and then you just spit stats talking about AP vs CJ's seasons, but as that is completely off-topic, I'm not going there.

 

I dislike saying this, again, as you keep on doing this, but you don't get to tell me what to do, bro. If I think you say something really stupid, I'm going to say something about it. You can tell me not to all you want, I'm simply going to ignore that. This is, after all, a forum for discussion. Make a ridiculous statement and you're going to get called on it.

[56AceInDaPlace 110]

okay, so let me ask this, if I'm willing to concede that RG3 may have had a slightly bigger impact on the Skins than AD had on the Vikings (which I'm not sure I'm willing to concede, but I'll pose in the interest of advancing the discussion) are you willing to concede that by all measures AD's individual performance was better than RG3's and you just don't care about?

 

Already said this eariler. Stat wise, between the both of them for their positions, AP wins.

 

But AP didnt have the best season ever, and people are acting like he did. RG3 did something no rookie QB has ever done. With a shit defense. Thats more impressive then what AP did. Had AP have the best RB season ever, which means he would have to have alot mroe yards and TDs, i would no doubt give it to him. But he didnt.

[Thanatos 2,847]

What exactly did RG3 do that no other rookie QB has ever done?

 

You mean lead his team to the playoffs?

 

Andrew Luck and Russell Wilson say hi.

 

So does Ben Roethlisberger.

[Glanvilles Grits 142]

What exactly did RG3 do that no other rookie QB has ever done?

 

You mean lead his team to the playoffs?

 

Andrew Luck and Russell Wilson say hi.

 

So does Ben Roethlisberger.

 

He claims Roethlisberger had his D to fall back on.

 

What about guys like Andrew Luck, Joe Flacco, Matt Ryan, Russell Wilson, so many QB's have led their teams to the playoffs. I don't remember any of them being injured for a week and having their backup come in and give the same amount of impact to the offense though. Luck and Ryan surely didn't have the defense to fall back on. I'm just thinking that the whole point of it was a rookie leading his team to the playoffs might not work here.

[ATL_Predator+ 1,196]

So did Matt Ryan. Just thought I should say that since we're talking about rookie QB's that led their teams to the playoffs just so I'm not butthurt over the fact that my team's player isn't the best at his own position and that there's no way possible someone else better that actually deserves the award more than anyone else....even though this thread is about the MVP...who's a RB...and mysteriously a wild Chris Johnson reference appears.

 

[Glanvilles Grits 142]

I already had Matt Ryan covered in this topic. I think he raises a sour conversation, so let's veer from the Matt Ryan saga.

[ATL_Predator+ 1,196]

Jah...

 

Herp. Still waiting for a valid argument for why AP shouldn't of won MVP. Any new challengers?

[56AceInDaPlace 110]

He claims Roethlisberger had his D to fall back on.

 

What about guys like Andrew Luck, Joe Flacco, Matt Ryan, Russell Wilson, so many QB's have led their teams to the playoffs. I don't remember any of them being injured for a week and having their backup come in and give the same amount of impact to the offense though. Luck and Ryan surely didn't have the defense to fall back on. I'm just thinking that the whole point of it was a rookie leading his team to the playoffs might not work here.

 

Its not claiming anything if Pittsburgh had the Number 1 Defense that year?

 

And i meant taking a 4 win team or less as a rookie and lead them to the playoffs, on the majority of that rookie QB. RG had no D. So if he didnt kill clock or put up points, the D wasnt going to win them games.

[Thanatos 2,847]

Its not claiming anything if Pittsburgh had the Number 1 Defense that year?

 

And i meant taking a 4 win team or less as a rookie and lead them to the playoffs, on the majority of that rookie QB. RG had no D. So if he didnt kill clock or put up points, the D wasnt going to win them games.

 

Washington was 5-11 in 2011, so RG3 is disqualified by your own statement.

 

/thread

Edited February 21, 2013 by Thanatos19

[oochymp 2,393]

Its not claiming anything if Pittsburgh had the Number 1 Defense that year?

 

And i meant taking a 4 win team or less as a rookie and lead them to the playoffs, on the majority of that rookie QB. RG had no D. So if he didnt kill clock or put up points, the D wasnt going to win them games.

first off, Andrew Luck, who led a 2-14 team to the playoffs, but you did mention him, so I'll point out that the year before Flacco's rookie season the Ravens were 5-11, same record as the Skins last year, then he led the Ravens to the AFC Championship in his rookie season, and Roethlisberger took over a 6-10 team (slightly better, but not much) and turned them into a 15-1 team

[GA_Eagle 595]

first off, Andrew Luck, who led a 2-14 team to the playoffs, but you did mention him, so I'll point out that the year before Flacco's rookie season the Ravens were 5-11, same record as the Skins last year, then he led the Ravens to the AFC Championship in his rookie season, and Roethlisberger took over a 6-10 team (slightly better, but not much) and turned them into a 15-1 team

 

Ryan's rookie year with the falcons was after a 4-12 season too.