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Guantanamo Bay

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Don't wanna dilute the bombing thread, so let's talk Guantanamo here.

My opinion: it is horrendous and probably the worst thing the US government does (saying a lot I know). For those who don't know, there are people locked up indefinitely because they are suspected of being terrorists. Of course, not all these people are terrorists, but that's just their problem.

 

My solution: trials for everyone, followed by immediate closure of the camp. If we feel that someone is dangerous enough that he needs to be locked up forever, we better be able to prove it. Anyone acquitted should be either sent to their home country or made an American citizen and live here (as some would not be accepted by their home countries). This would probably be expensive, and yes it might allow for some terrorists to be let free in the US but I think that's a chance we need to take.

 

We like to talk about how great America is for its freedom, but I don't think the government has any place to say that when it has a camp that is quite similar to the camps in dictatorships like North Korea.

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We can't use Gitmo as a place to send suspected terrorists when we can't convict them, especially this Chechen guy. He's a US citizen and if he can't be convicted in court, then that's just the prosecuting side's problem.

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Don't wanna dilute the bombing thread, so let's talk Guantanamo here.

My opinion: it is horrendous and probably the worst thing the US government does (saying a lot I know). For those who don't know, there are people locked up indefinitely because they are suspected of being terrorists. Of course, not all these people are terrorists, but that's just their problem.

 

My solution: trials for everyone, followed by immediate closure of the camp. If we feel that someone is dangerous enough that he needs to be locked up forever, we better be able to prove it. Anyone acquitted should be either sent to their home country or made an American citizen and live here (as some would not be accepted by their home countries). This would probably be expensive, and yes it might allow for some terrorists to be let free in the US but I think that's a chance we need to take.

 

We like to talk about how great America is for its freedom, but I don't think the government has any place to say that when it has a camp that is quite similar to the camps in dictatorships like North Korea.

 

It's a problem, for sure. You can't simply release them onto the streets in America, though. We have data that indicates 1 in 6 go right back to terrorism, and 1 in 4 are highly suspected of doing so. Of course, this also means that 3 in 4 aren't suspected of being terrorists after release, which is troubling. Those that aren't American citizens don't have the right of appealing to the Constitution. But detaining people without charge isn't something I can agree with. If we believe they are dangerous, but we can't get enough evidence to convict them of it, we should send them back to their home countries, and let them deal with the person in question.

 

There is a problem here though. Some of the inmates, should we give them back to their home countries, would be most likely not given proper representation, (I believe three of them are wanted by the Chinese government for actions in some sort of rebellion).

 

So are you saying that if we believe these are dangerous individuals, but we can't give them back to their home country for various reasons, we release them into the US and make them American citizens? And then what, just have the FBI keep an eye on them to make sure they aren't doing anything illegal?

Edited by Thanatos19

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Don't wanna dilute the bombing thread, so let's talk Guantanamo here.

My opinion: it is horrendous and probably the worst thing the US government does (saying a lot I know). For those who don't know, there are people locked up indefinitely because they are suspected of being terrorists. Of course, not all these people are terrorists, but that's just their problem.

 

My solution: trials for everyone, followed by immediate closure of the camp. If we feel that someone is dangerous enough that he needs to be locked up forever, we better be able to prove it. Anyone acquitted should be either sent to their home country or made an American citizen and live here (as some would not be accepted by their home countries). This would probably be expensive, and yes it might allow for some terrorists to be let free in the US but I think that's a chance we need to take.

 

We like to talk about how great America is for its freedom, but I don't think the government has any place to say that when it has a camp that is quite similar to the camps in dictatorships like North Korea.

 

I agree with what you have to say. I think the argument that they are too dangerous, the ones that have been convicted or the ones being detained indefinitely without charge, is somewhat shallow because there is a Supermax Prison in Florence, Colorado (ADX Florence) that houses convicted terrorists already. They have the best security in the world for any Maximum Security Prison (hence the name Supermax Prison), so there would be no chance whatsoever of them ever escaping.

 

Given the budget deficit and debt crisis that America faces, if there is an already successful and established way ofprosecuting, and imprisoning terrorists, than that way should be taken. Not only for national security reasons to make a rich target for propaganda and recruiting null and void, but also for financial reasons, because I beat that it is pretty expensive to house all of those suspected terrorists that are still at Guantanamo Bay Prison in Cuba! :yep:

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Uhhh so we just let them appear in open court ? No. People who were captured in Iraq and Afghanistan who are terrorists do not deserve trial but also do not deserve freedom. And after some of the tings they know they should not be able to take the witness stand.

 

And then when it comes to gathering evidence the American people should not be privy to the process of the collection of data on international matters, because well, it just isnt their fuckin business imo.

 

It serves a purpose.

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So your saying we should leave it up to US citizens to decide which of these scumbags are terrorist? Thats too much pressure to put on them and they would all likely be found guilty because no one wants to take the chance of that guy coming back and blowing up a bunch of people down the road.

 

I say leave the place intact, I highly doubt we are sending every dude we capture there, without some sorta evidence they may be a terrorist.

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As long as you'd be ok with Iran taking US citizens from the US and keeping them in prison indefinitely where they'd be tortured.

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Do you watch the news ?

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We all know what happens, Ngata. He's pointing out that it's not ok for people to do that to the US, but apparently ok for the US to do it to others.

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Not only is it unethical but it's been proven to be ineffective.

Edited by seanbrock

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Uhhh so we just let them appear in open court ? No. People who were captured in Iraq and Afghanistan who are terrorists do not deserve trial but also do not deserve freedom. And after some of the tings they know they should not be able to take the witness stand.

 

And then when it comes to gathering evidence the American people should not be privy to the process of the collection of data on international matters, because well, it just isnt their fuckin business imo.

 

It serves a purpose.

 

So have a private military trial. I agree they can't be allowed to take the witness stand if they are going to put people in harm's way by revealing classified info, but we can still give them a trial.

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As long as you'd be ok with Iran taking US citizens from the US and keeping them in prison indefinitely where they'd be tortured.

 

You completely missed it. Iran has done it to us several times as well as other countries in the Middle East. If you are looking for sympathy well.. It is somewhere between shit and syphilis in the dictionary. Don't really care if they are going on hunger strike for their dignity. Starve. The food is there if they dont want to eat it oh well.

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So have a private military trial. I agree they can't be allowed to take the witness stand if they are going to put people in harm's way by revealing classified info, but we can still give them a trial.

 

Ok, I can agree with that. That said if it is private you are still going to have US Citizens that think they are entitled to the details of a military trial so it will do no good imo.

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You completely missed it. Iran has done it to us several times as well as other countries in the Middle East.

And it was wrong and horrible when they did. Just like its wrong and horrible when we do it.

 

And the military can stop being accountable to citizens when it stops taking our tax money.

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And it was wrong and horrible when they did. Just like its wrong and horrible when we do it.

 

And the military can stop being accountable to citizens when it stops taking our tax money.

 

So your idea is no military ? Should we stop paying cops, firefighters and EMT's too. That was pretty stupid man.

 

the military can not be accountable to citizens because citizens have no idea what it is like therefore there opinion holds no weight or merit to any soldier when it comes to how to conduct military business. It is not civilians business.

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Cops, firefighters, and EMTs don't hide atrocities from the population. Well cops do, but thats a problem for another day.

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Cops, firefighters, and EMTs don't hide atrocities from the population. Well cops do, but thats a problem for another day.

See and how do you know of these atrocities ? Or do you just regurgitate the media bullshit ?Were you there or do you just assume ? And remember war is not pretty. It never has been. Much worse has been done in previous wars but we got a society full of puss cakes who takes things out of context and makes them sound worse than they are.

 

I am trying to think of things that were flat out atrocities and 2 come to mind. How many come to mind for you ? And then how many were provoked ?

 

If you want to know what goes on in the military, enlist. Until then what happens in Iraq and Afghanistan you are not educated enough to speak on plain and simple.

Edited by Zack_of_Steel

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There were atrocities in the Filipino-American War, WW2, Korea (I believe), VIETNAM, and some pretty bad shit with the recent wars. We're not talking about "war being ugly"... I'm talking about actual massacres and torture. You don't have to be in the military to know about the military. That's actually an insanely ignorant stance.

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There were atrocities in the Filipino-American War, WW2, Korea (I believe), VIETNAM, and some pretty bad shit with the recent wars. We're not talking about "war being ugly"... I'm talking about actual massacres and torture. You don't have to be in the military to know about the military. That's actually an insanely ignorant stance.

 

No it isnt. If people think a massacre is what is going on then they clearly are not in the military because you would know the sofa agreement gives the enemy the advantage in every battle.

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No it isnt. If people think a massacre is what is going on then they clearly are not in the military because you would know the sofa agreement gives the enemy the advantage in every battle.

 

It is ridiculously ignorant. People who think a massacre is the norm are retarded, but the very fact that there have been massacres committed by our military speaks for itself. I guarantee you that there are civilians who study into military hardware and tactics for hobby that know more about the listed topics than actual soldiers. Seriously... to say that civilians don't know about the military is kind of laughable. I agree that they don't have the experience of warfare under their belt, but they can go educate themselves about how war is done.

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It is ridiculously ignorant. People who think a massacre is the norm are retarded, but the very fact that there have been massacres committed by our military speaks for itself. I guarantee you that there are civilians who study into military hardware and tactics for hobby that know more about the listed topics than actual soldiers. Seriously... to say that civilians don't know about the military is kind of laughable. I agree that they don't have the experience of warfare under their belt, but they can go educate themselves about how war is done.

No civilians thinking they can learn what happens in a book is laughable. You will never get an accurate depiction of war through oration or literature. The books dont tell you about the everyday stuff. They dont tell you about the tensions, the 24 hour lockdowns after a death, the smell of garbage because the insurgents are so incompetent blew up the garbage heap instead of the DFAC, they dont tell you about seeing little girls with both arms broken because her dad is a kurd, they dont tell you about buying 1 dollar faked movies on a DVD, or the concrete gyms, or the terps who beg for citizenship because they know as soon as we leave they are dead unless they are granted visas.

 

You think you know because you can quantify this war by numbers because you can google. That is not what this is and the fact that you think it is just furthers my conclusion that you have no idea what this war is. It is more than numbers, and until people learn that than soldiers will always have the upper hand over your written quantifiable evidence.Period.

 

And how many atrocities do you think occured in this war, two maybe three. ?not a bad number really.

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No civilians thinking they can learn what happens in a book is laughable. You will never get an accurate depiction of war through oration or literature. The books dont tell you about the everyday stuff. They dont tell you about the tensions, the 24 hour lockdowns after a death, the smell of garbage because the insurgents are so incompetent blew up the garbage heap instead of the DFAC, they dont tell you about seeing little girls with both arms broken because her dad is a kurd, they dont tell you about buying 1 dollar faked movies on a DVD, or the concrete gyms, or the terps who beg for citizenship because they know as soon as we leave they are dead unless they are granted visas.

My b. Its pretty clear how going through this justifies taking away the rights of, and torturing innocent people without a trial. I didn't see it from this perspective.

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My b. Its pretty clear how going through this justifies taking away the rights of, and torturing innocent people without a trial. I didn't see it from this perspective.

 

How are you so sure they are innocent ? Were you there or something ? Is there something about you the rest of us dont know that qualifies you to say they are all innocent with certainty ? If so that is awfully suspicious in it of itself.

 

What if there was a secret military tribunal held and they just forgot to invite you ? I mean impossible as it seems the military can function without your say so.

Edited by Ngata_Chance

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So have a private military trial. I agree they can't be allowed to take the witness stand if they are going to put people in harm's way by revealing classified info, but we can still give them a trial.

 

:yep:

 

It should be mandatory death penalty if you have been convicted of terrorism charges, and then gone through the established appeals process. If these motherfuckers are dead, you can than just dump the body in the ocean, like they did with the body of Osama Bin Laden. :yep:

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