Guantanamo Bay

[seanbrock 1,684]

Statistics from the CIA say that torture doesn't work. In fact, unreliable information from torture has gotten US soldiers killed. There is no upside to terrorism. We gain very little and lose a lot and waste a lot of time.

 

As far as atrocities of war goes...I think that's an oxymoron. War IS atrocity because war is just basically poor people fighting each other so that those in power can further their interests and gain wealth.

[CARDINAL 205]

Statistics from the CIA say that torture doesn't work. In fact, unreliable information from torture has gotten US soldiers killed. There is no upside to terrorism. We gain very little and lose a lot and waste a lot of time.

 

As far as atrocities of war goes...I think that's an oxymoron. War IS atrocity because war is just basically poor people fighting each other so that those in power can further their interests and gain wealth.

 

That is one of the aims of Islamic terrorist groups, to bleed America dry so that they eventually (in their mind when thinking of this broad strategic plan) leave Muslim countries, especially in the Middle East.

[OSUViking 505]

No civilians thinking they can learn what happens in a book is laughable. You will never get an accurate depiction of war through oration or literature. The books dont tell you about the everyday stuff. They dont tell you about the tensions, the 24 hour lockdowns after a death, the smell of garbage because the insurgents are so incompetent blew up the garbage heap instead of the DFAC, they dont tell you about seeing little girls with both arms broken because her dad is a kurd, they dont tell you about buying 1 dollar faked movies on a DVD, or the concrete gyms, or the terps who beg for citizenship because they know as soon as we leave they are dead unless they are granted visas.

 

You think you know because you can quantify this war by numbers because you can google. That is not what this is and the fact that you think it is just furthers my conclusion that you have no idea what this war is. It is more than numbers, and until people learn that than soldiers will always have the upper hand over your written quantifiable evidence.Period.

 

And how many atrocities do you think occured in this war, two maybe three. ?not a bad number really.

 

I'd like to stop you in the first paragraph by saying I acknowledge that experience cannot be attained. That being said, knowledge of warfare is easily attainable for any person with access to historical documents and excess time.

 

Regarding the second paragraph, I'd like to not be stereotyped into the crowd that thinks they know what's right for the military. I actually do my research regarding military technology, unlike the majority of Americans who blindly follow what the news says. The only point I'm disagreeing with you on is that civilians have no knowledge of warfare, which is completely false.

 

"Not a bad number, really."... what? Two maybe three is not a bad number? ONE atrocity is too many. There is no such thing as the right amount of atrocities. They are called atrocities for a reason, and not because "war gets ugly".

[blotsfan 2,112]

That is one of the aims of Islamic terrorist groups, to bleed America dry so that they eventually (in their mind when thinking of this broad strategic plan) leave Muslim countries, especially in the Middle East.

 

Or they just give false information so they stop being tortured.

Edited April 23, 2013 by blotsfan

[OSUViking 505]

As far as atrocities of war goes...I think that's an oxymoron. War IS atrocity because war is just basically poor people fighting each other so that those in power can further their interests and gain wealth.

 

There is a big difference, in my opinion. War is horrible, and I think we can all agree on that. The difference between war and "atrocities" is that war generally serves a purpose (so I guess that means we can call all of our recent wars atrocities), while atrocities are just horrendous acts of violence committed out of the blue.

[blotsfan 2,112]

How are you so sure they are innocent ? Were you there or something ? Is there something about you the rest of us dont know that qualifies you to say they are all innocent with certainty ? If so that is awfully suspicious in it of itself.

 

What if there was a secret military tribunal held and they just forgot to invite you ? I mean impossible as it seems the military can function without your say so.

Yeah, the military does have the moral compass to do the right thing.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mahmudiyah_killings

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haditha_massacre

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamdania_incident

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abu_Ghraib_torture_and_prisoner_abuse

 

And while in some of those cases, the military punished them, they were still representing the US as a whole. Whether or not you are in it, the military represents the US. If they want to represent me, they should be transparent.

[Omerta+ 1,206]

Yeah, the military does have the moral compass to do the right thing.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mahmudiyah_killings

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haditha_massacre

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamdania_incident

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abu_Ghraib_torture_and_prisoner_abuse

 

And while in some of those cases, the military punished them, they were still representing the US as a whole. Whether or not you are in it, the military represents the US. If they want to represent me, they should be transparent.

 

Some cases ? A lot of those people are serving life without parole. What else do you want form them ?

 

And again we dont represent you lol. You are not the country. You are a fractional portion of the US. If you want to know what goes on behind the scenes then enlist. Until you put your money where your mouth is you do not and should not have a say in military policy that could end up getting people killed so you can feel important. Where did you get this sense of entitlement about the military ? Were you beat up by a bunch of soldiers and just dislike all of the military now ?

 

And for every one of those storied there are absolute heroic acts that soldiers have done. If you dont like war call your congressman. On average soldier hate war more than you because you dont have to sacrifice anything, just sit back and criticize. The soliders are the ones losing lives and shattering families. It sounds like you got it easy.

[CARDINAL 205]

Yeah, the military does have the moral compass to do the right thing.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mahmudiyah_killings

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haditha_massacre

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamdania_incident

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abu_Ghraib_torture_and_prisoner_abuse

 

And while in some of those cases, the military punished them, they were still representing the US as a whole. Whether or not you are in it, the military represents the US. If they want to represent me, they should be transparent.

 

The American Military is an honourable national institution, and naybody who hates it therefore hates America, simply as that!

 

people like Ngata served America in Iraq and Afghanistan with a very high degree of honour, and I find it disgraceful to devalue the great service that soldiers like Ngata did for America!

[funnygunny 521]

are you even American bro? lol

[CARDINAL 205]

are you even American bro? lol

 

why are you even asking this question?

[funnygunny 521]

because you're from Canada (from what I've heard). and you seem awfully patriotic about a country you don' come from. EDIT: never mind. I was deceived all along by none other than the Vingetarian.

 

but since some people, myself included, don't support everything the American military has done, we must hate it right? rofl

Edited April 23, 2013 by funnygunny

[CARDINAL 205]

because you're from Canada (from what I've heard). and you seem awfully patriotic about a country you don' come from.

 

but since some people, myself included, don't support everything the American military has done, we must hate it right? rofl

 

I never said that, I was just saying that some of these comments are devaluing the service that Ngata and other like him did for America!

 

Where did you hear that I am from Canada?

 

Immigrants from all over the world who move to America are patriotic about it, or are they deemed second class citizens because they weren't born there?

[funnygunny 521]

I never said that, I was just saying that some of these comments are devaluing the service that Ngata and other like him did for America!

 

The American Military is an honourable national institution, and naybody who hates it therefore hates America, simply as that!

 

Immigrants from all over the world who move to America are patriotic about it, or are they deemed second class citizens because they weren't born there?

 

YES THAT'S EXACTLY WHAT I SAID. You 2nd class scum!

[Turry 755]

Devin is a second class citizen everywhere. Devin you do realize you are not American or an immigrant in America right?

Edited April 23, 2013 by monstersofthemidway

[Omerta+ 1,206]

I'd like to stop you in the first paragraph by saying I acknowledge that experience cannot be attained. That being said, knowledge of warfare is easily attainable for any person with access to historical documents and excess time.

 

Regarding the second paragraph, I'd like to not be stereotyped into the crowd that thinks they know what's right for the military. I actually do my research regarding military technology, unlike the majority of Americans who blindly follow what the news says. The only point I'm disagreeing with you on is that civilians have no knowledge of warfare, which is completely false.

 

"Not a bad number, really."... what? Two maybe three is not a bad number? ONE atrocity is too many. There is no such thing as the right amount of atrocities. They are called atrocities for a reason, and not because "war gets ugly".

 

The first I disagree with.

 

I also dsagree with the second. Although I am aware and have noticed that you have done your homework on a lot of it, and I appreciate that. It is much better than the,"Well soldiers are wrong and evil monsters" bullshit that seems to have permeated TGP, even though none of them have ever done it or been there and are just regurgitating media trash.

 

And no in comparison it is not all that bad. Is one too many? sure. If I could light the world with a rainbow shot out of my ass and peace befell mankind that would be awesome. That said though one compared to the many people of those countries have done is small in comparison.

[CARDINAL 205]

Devin is a second class citizen everywhere. Devin you do realize you are not American or an immigrant in America right?

 

Try to make a comment that is relevant to the thread topic please, thank you!

[Thanatos 2,847]

Try to make a comment that is relevant to the thread topic please, thank you!

 

Oh the irony with this statement coming from Devin.

[Zack_of_Steel+ 3,014]

Devin, you are in no position to be telling anyone what to do, lol.

 

Guantanamo Bay is unethical. The fact that other countries have been unethical with greater frequency does not permit the U.S. to be unethical in a smaller fashion. America should be ethical in all that it does. Period.

[Thanatos 2,847]

On what basis is it unethical?

[blotsfan 2,112]

The fact that people are brought there, held there indefinitely without trial, and tortured.

[Thanatos 2,847]

You and I have different definitions of torture, I guess.

 

But again, why is holding suspected enemy combatants without trial unethical?

[blotsfan 2,112]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guantanamo_Bay_detention_camp#Torture

 

And the war is by definition, never ending.

[Maverick 791]

They stick pictures of 9/11 victims to him.

Good.

 

lol @ constantly using Wikipedia as a legitimate source.

[OSUViking 505]

Even though Wikipedia constantly checks for errors and adjusts edits made to articles if they aren't in line with their sources. Teachers didn't even lie about it being a bad source; they just came out and said, "It's too easy to get all of the information from Wikipedia, so just use the sources they have listed instead."

[seanbrock 1,684]

You and I have different definitions of torture, I guess.

 

But again, why is holding suspected enemy combatants without trial unethical?

"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights."

 

"Excessive bail shall not be required, nor excessive fines imposed, nor cruel and unusual punishments inflicted."

 

I realize that these people aren't citizens but these are some of the most basic human rights that this country was supposedly founded on. If we don't defend them and uphold them then we have already lost. Remember, these "terrorists" are in many cases responding to UNITED STATES aggression. We stick our noses in peoples business and tell them how to live and tell them what rules they need to follow when we don't even follow our own.