Philosophical Ramblings

[Thanatos 2,847]

So, I'll just come right out and say this. It's something that I feel like sharing with you guys since I've hardly shared it with anyone else.

 

I no longer believe God exists. Or rather, that there is nothing that convinces me that one God exists over any other, and thus there is no reason to worship a God.

 

This change has been gradual, sped up dramatically during the last year or so, through talking and discussing with friends, and taking a couple classes to learn OT Hebrew and Koine Greek at the seminary to try to see if translational errors can account for some of the things that I find fault with, (it can't).

 

There are basically three big things that swung my point of view over.

 

I. The church and the Bible's treatment of gay people. The Russia thread being one of these, (where they voted 434-0 to pass a bill saying you can't even tell kids gay people exist). I live in Kentucky. You'd be surprised that people actually knew Russia passed a bill of any kind, but apparently some pastor had done a piece on it, so there was a rather large discussion group after church. And of these people, most of whom I respect(ed), all but one thought the bill was a good idea. The only person who didn't? A friend who wasn't a Christian who had come to church with me because I asked her.

 

You guys can talk about it all you want, but there is simply no way you can translate the Bible as friendly to gay people. You're freaking stretching the thing so much it's tearing. This goes against my conscience. I look at things like the movie Milk, and the gay march that the NBA player who came out participated in, and I hear the church and those in it talk about how they are perverted people, and they can't wait to see them get their comeuppance, and it's like... what are they doing that harms you, personally? I'm not judging the entire faith based on my personal experience, and that's not why I have left it. But it seems to me the fundies have the right translation. The "just take what seems right to you" guys don't really strike me as making sense. If I'm going to do that, why do I need the Bible at all?

 

The issue to me is when they try to defend themselves it basically boils down to this:

1) They presuppose the Bible is right, and that the only options are their option and the liberal translation and don't consider a third option, that its wrong. Matthew 24 is a great example of this, Jesus seems to be saying he's coming back really soon. If I was one of the disciples that is sure as hell what I would have thought. So their argument is, "Well he obviously didn't come back, since we know that from history, so therefore he must be coming back in the future." And all my philosophical training comes rushing in and I want to scream that no, that doesn't follow, you're advocating a false dilemma. There is another option: He thought he was coming back soon, and he didn't.

2) The other thing they do is "Well you just gotta believe, hun." If I had a nickel for every time I heard this, I'd be a millionaire. I'm not wired this way. I'm simply not. If your god created everyone, then he's got a pretty sick sense of humor, because he makes a person who needs solid evidence to believe something and then doesn't give him solid evidence. I'm not a blind faith kind of person. Every time I would debate with an atheist, he'd always be shocked that I would say, "Yes, if you can convince me I'm wrong, I would leave Christianity." I guess they never get that answer from others.

 

II. The Young Earth Creation controversy. I have spent so much time looking into this I'm frankly sick of talking about it. Let me just put it this way: If you come to the Bible with an open mind, there is no way in hell you can read Genesis and come to the conclusion that evolution is what occurred. And again, if its just a morality tale, then why do I need the Bible over some other book.

 

The only way you read Genesis and come out with some form of progressive creationism is if you bring your presupposition in with you. There's a mountain of writing I could put in here, but this thing is already long enough as is.

 

Ditto reading Genesis 11 and not reading the Flood as a global one, (for which there is next-to-zero archaeological evidence, ICR's "science" notwithstanding).

 

III. Finally, certain passages in the OT that I read and I go, "there is no way this is ever justified." I don't care if its just to the Israelis and no longer applies, it doesn't matter. This is never ever justified. There are so many times reading stuff like the part about selling your daughter into slavery, or my personal favorite, beating your slave is okay as long as he can stand afterwards, even if he dies after that, it's okay as long as he was able to stand after the beating, because he is your property, after all. That was a sentence fragment, and I don't care. The point is, there were so many times reading that stuff, and my immediate thought was, "This is wrong." Then I hear someone trying to justify it, and I just flat out asked, during Sunday School, how we can justify this to others? If we read of someone saying this in the newspapers, or heck, if we read that the Qu'ran advocated this to the Muslims- even if it was way back when- we'd use it to point out the Muslims are violent, and its so blatantly hypocritical to do that when we have these passages we always like to explain away. But my morality does not allow me to look at that passage and come up with a way to explain it away. It's wrong, period. I don't care when it was done, the fact that there is a literal guideline as to how hard you are allowed to beat your slave and not have anything done to you in retaliation isn't something to be defended, it's something to be despised.

 

I don't think this has changed any of my political positions one whit, except now I can advocate for gay marriage without feeling guilty. I have 25 years of religious training to shed, so even typing this post up makes me feel like a lightning bolt is about to strike down or something.

 

I just know this will come up sooner or later in our discussions, so I thought I'd lay it all out. If you want to respond, feel free, I just wanted to get this out there.

[blotsfan 2,112]

Well, I wasn't expecting that.

 

Obviously you won't get any crap from here for it, as I think Dmac is the only person here who I'd call religious (unless I forgot someone). I hope your family is ok with this.

 

And I guess if we're going through religious philosophies, I'm of the belief that if there is a God (and I think there is), simply being a good person should be enough to him. I don't think a God that feels any differently is one thats worth worshipping.

[DonovanMcnabb for H.O.F 2,241]

At the end of the day you gotta do whatever is best for yourself... And there's no point in being in a religion if you can't agree with it's morals. No playa hate from me.

 

If you've already shared this with family/friends You've probably heard this a million times and it's probably becoming an old cliche if any of them are Christian, but... Even if I don't know you on any personal level, I'm prayin for you.

[Sarge+ 3,436]

This is why we need to teach people at a younger age to think deeper about stuff and ask the hard questions. Not only does it help you learn material facts and information in a deeper way, but you also learn about yourself and your real convictions about life. I applaud you for being open-minded enough to come to a turning point in your life and take a new road that makes more sense to you. A lot of people don't have the guts to do it for whatever reason (family, social pressures, afraid to start a new life from an unfamiliar viewpoint, etc...) It's obvious that this wasn't something you decided to do one day out of nowhere. Other people who do a similar amount of soul searching may eventually conclude that they need to stick with their faith in their religion, and that's fine too, because at least they thought for themselves instead of being fed lies and hypocrisy by an entire congregation full of people.

 

[RazorStar 4,025]

Good on you, following what your mind knows to be true is more important than societal or familial pressures to believe something else.

[Omerta+ 1,206]

I as I am sure many people can relate man, this is not just a Thanatos thing. It is happening more and more as people are becoming more educated about the world in general. Not to say being Christianity ignorant, just a different belief as occurs all the time. First kudos for having enough inner strength to be able to look at your demons and misgivings logically and being able to identify what exactly it was that was troubling you. Even more so for having the strength to say "I will go outside my comfort zone and try something else."

 

It is weird for me to say I am a Christian, but as weird as it sounds I am. Not in the sense most people think, but in my own way. It is interesting because there are a few things left out like the Gnostic gospels and such that just get ignored. I also believe that Jesus was an actual person. not because the bible says or anything like that, but because of how history unfolds. In general nobody writes a book about something that does not exist and holds it as evidence to a point. What I mean is that there is probably some kernel of truth because not only in the bible but the time of Jesus was documented by many others. Was he divine ? I dont know. Was his following as large as people say and inspire " The Written word of God?" I dont know. Was he ever more than anything but an inspirational guy who lived a wholesome life ? I dont know. Did he perform miracles ? I dont know. What I do know is that not only Christians acknowledge that there was an influential man that held the principles of monotheism and a loving creator as the centerpiece for his sermons. Now was some of that aggrandized so that way it would leave people in awe ? Most definitely. But I believe the man existed.

 

I can definitely understand where you have shed religion and it is probably going to serve you well as this was definitely thought out. And I completely understand your wrestling with the entire thing itself, because it is hard to believe certain excerpts when the book itself has what I consider to be half truths or stretchs of it at the least if just not outright lies.

 

I hope your lifestyle changes does you well and the fall out is somewhat mitigated by people already knowing that you are a good dude.

[SteVo+ 3,702]

I was raised a Christian and confirmed by the Catholic church at age 13, but between 18 and 19 I had a similar evolution (pun intended) to you, Thanatos, and I think I'm a better person for being able to change my beliefs. I'm definitely not one of those "religion is all evil" people, but I definitely don't think it's for everyone. I could ramble on (another pun intended), but Sarge and Razor summed it up pretty well, I think.

[Jules 98]

[OSUViking 505]

I agree 100% with what you're saying. Like... word for fucking word. If I could give you a +100, I would... bravo, good sir.

[RazorStar 4,025]

Why don't we add some more ramblings.

 

I was thinking about this recently, but what if an autocrat is chosen by the people of a democracy to rule. Assuming that person was competent and deserved to rule, do you feel like that would compromise everything democracy stood for to let him/her rule indefinitely? It just has me curious, because in this situation, it would be a ruler chosen by the people, but you would be forsaking democratic rights for it.

[Favre4Ever+ 4,476]

Damn. I wanted this to be some super deep "meaning of life" kind of stuff. Philosophy = Awesome. Instead, it's a somewhat generic revelation that many young adults are experiencing these days.

 

While I am disappointed in the thread, I am glad that you have made sense of something in the world. I realize that sounds kind of sarcastic-ish, or it does when I read it to myself. But I mean it genuinely. The more answers we can provide ourselves, the less mystery to shroud our judgement... The better. Kudos.

[Vin+ 3,121]

Why don't we add some more ramblings.

 

I was thinking about this recently, but what if an autocrat is chosen by the people of a democracy to rule. Assuming that person was competent and deserved to rule, do you feel like that would compromise everything democracy stood for to let him/her rule indefinitely? It just has me curious, because in this situation, it would be a ruler chosen by the people, but you would be forsaking democratic rights for it.

 

In this case, it's not so much the change in the process that's the problem, it's that you can't guarantee that the ruler wouldn't be corrupted and then turn into a despot. And then, assuming you were to appoint someone who remained good throughout his reign, what are the odds that the next person appointed is the same?

 

Death ruins everything. If only immortal, benevolent dictators existed,

 

 

Another question: Do the details of the process matter if a good ruler is found?

[DonovanMcnabb for H.O.F 2,241]

Don't take this the wrong way or anything, but Imo you're making a mistake by such a change in belief. I completely understand your reason, but still.

 

IMO when it gets to the point where you and the congregation that you are with have such differentiating opinions, it's better to leave the church and find another. While I am against "gay marriage" as much as the next Christian, to go as far as to say there's nothing wrong with how far places like Russia is doing... That's another level that I would never agree with. I would of left.

 

And as far as the OT is concerned, I really do think that when the time period isn't put into perspectives, it really paints a ugly picture. But it should just show how much more we have to be grateful about.

 

IDK, I know you've already made your decision, and it is what it is. But I have a really bad taste in my mouth, and conscious, with just standing by and not saying anything. A lot of things go through a person's mind as he gets older or starts trying to make sense of things, and there's nothing wrong with that... But to completely turn away is just discouraging stuff to hear.

[Thanatos 2,847]

It's not the particular congregation Dmac, it's my understanding of the Bible and interpretation of it leaving very little wiggle room. It doesn't matter what a particular point of view a particular congregation holds when I feel there is no way to read the Bible another way in this particular instance, (such as the thing with gays). Like I said, that wasn't the reason I left. The church as a whole treats gay people very poorly, and I just think that if people didn't look at the Bible first, but asked themselves whether or not it was okay to do and say what they were saying, that they would no longer believe it.

 

I also feel that the Bible clearly teaches young earth, six-day creationism, and this is in complete contradiction with pretty much everything science says. It's like the Bible is telling me the sky is green when I can look up and see that its blue.

 

Feel free to try to put the time period in perspective for this:

Exodus 21:20-21 “When a man strikes his slave, male or female, with a rod and the slave dies under his hand, he shall be avenged. But if the slave survives a day or two, he is not to be avenged, for the slave is his money."

 

So you can beat your slave as long as he doesn't die as a direct result. If he dies after a few days, then there is no need to punish the slaver because he's already been punished by the financial loss occurred by having his slave die. In other words, this passage treats slaves as less-than-human, which is my issue.

[blotsfan 2,112]

And it does seem like if God is eternally perfect and wise, his laws shouldn't be based around the morality of a backwards time period.

[OSUViking 505]

And he wouldn't participate in the wars and genocide enacted by the Israelites in their quest for the "Promised Land".

[Maverick 791]

Heathen.

 

This is the most atheistic site I've belonged to so you've definitely chosen wisely where to share this type of change.

 

EDIT: Speaking of which, I skimmed through your post again and I didn't see you spoke to your pastor about this. I'd recommend sharing these thoughts with someone of that stature. Like I just said, this site is dominated by atheists so besides DMac you're just going to get feel good posts agreeing with you. There's nothing wrong with that, but from seeing your posts the last couple of years you seem like the type of person that would embrace a man with the knowledge to challenge your new mindset rather than "good to hear bro" or "that's awesome news man."

 

Just my .02 Thanny, take it for what it's worth. I will also be praying for you.

Edited June 16, 2013 by Maverick

[Sarge+ 3,436]

Mav, I don't know if you intended to do so or not, but your post just stinks of a condescending attitude. First of all, I wouldn't classify a lot of TGP's members as pure atheists. We do have some pronounced atheists, but I also think that TGP has a lot of members who are constantly thinking about and re-evaluating their stance on things. That's a great thing. Like I told Thanatos in my post earlier in this thread, it would have been completely fine if, after all of this pondering, he decided to stick with his religious faith. There are plenty of intellectual people who think day after day about their stance on religion and remain with their beliefs. Thomas Aquinas is a prime example of that.

 

I think it's unfair to label everyone who thinks outside of religious terms as "atheist." Atheism is simply and clearly the belief that there is no God, and nobody or nothing could convince you otherwise. I think most people here, including Thanatos, are open to the possibility of a God if they were convinced that God exists. Again, I'll give you the benefit of the doubt, but you have to re-read your post and see that it sounds like you're on some sort of high horse talking down to the rest of us.

 

I also don't think you've given Thanatos himself enough credit. He's an extremely intelligent guy, and it's obvious he put a ton of thought into this new direction in his life. You're treating him like he's some sort of lost sheep who has strayed from the rest of the pack. I don't think Thanatos would benefit very much from speaking with a church pastor. He probably already knows most if not all of what would be said by a pastor. Thanatos used to be very devoted to the Christian faith, so I'm sure there's not much that can be said that he doesn't already know about it. he doesn't need other people to challenge his decision when he himself has probably been challenging it internally for some time now, as he stated in his initial post that this change has taken more than a year to actually occur.

[Guest Phailadelphia]

I think it's unfair to label everyone who thinks outside of religious terms as "atheist." Atheism is simply and clearly the belief that there is no God, and nobody or nothing could convince you otherwise.

 

I'm glad someone brought this up. IMO, atheism is not very different from religiosity and for one simple reason: Both rely on the same concept of faith to prove or disprove the existence of God. Which is a completely futile exercise in and of itself. Regardless, you can't tell one group of people "you can't prove God exists!" then turn around and call yourself an atheist because you rely on that same faith to tell someone he DOESN'T exist. You can't prove it and he can't prove it. It makes one no better than the other regardless of the moral high ground they are trying to pursue. This is why I prefer to call myself an agnostic. It is especially important if you're basing your preference on science v religion. Science demands evidence, and in terms of God or gods, there cannot be any evidence. Thus agnosticism fits best.

 

But back to the OT...in creating religion, humans made one fatal mistake: Giving Gods human characteristics. And from that stems the oppressive nature of religion, ie. anti-homosexuality.

[blotsfan 2,112]

Man, I completely forgot about Mav in terms of religious posters here.

 

And shocker of all shockers...I agree with him. Look at this thread: http://www.thegridironpalace.com/forums/index.php?/topic/61889-are-you-religious-if-so-what-religion-why/

 

Having 50% of the people identify as not-religious is a lot more than a normal sample in the US. TGP members are not religious, and the people here having a positive opinion of becoming an atheist isn't surprising. Not that it means anything negative about the people here. Its just like how a Christian would support you agreeing with their mindset.

[Sarge+ 3,436]

That poll is an extremely small sample size, so I think it would be wise take it with a fairly large grain of salt. Besides, that wasn't even the most important aspect of my post, either. This is:

 

 

I also don't think you've given Thanatos himself enough credit. He's an extremely intelligent guy, and it's obvious he put a ton of thought into this new direction in his life. You're treating him like he's some sort of lost sheep who has strayed from the rest of the pack. I don't think Thanatos would benefit very much from speaking with a church pastor. He probably already knows most if not all of what would be said by a pastor. Thanatos used to be very devoted to the Christian faith, so I'm sure there's not much that can be said that he doesn't already know about it. he doesn't need other people to challenge his decision when he himself has probably been challenging it internally for some time now, as he stated in his initial post that this change has taken more than a year to actually occur.

[Jules 98]

I was born and raised Catholic. My parents never really got me into going to Church often though. I think they were turned off slightly by their own strict upbringings.

 

I believe in God. I believe the Devil exists. I believe in Jesus.

 

Much of this is personal though and has to come from INSIDE, to me. If you need to pray you can....at any time. Sit down or just be alone anywhere and pray....

 

You don't have to be part of an organized religion IMO or a group if you don't want to. Because like I feel MUCH OF IT IS PERSONAL. If you need help or you need prayer a lot of it has to happen on your own when the right time comes. And when the time comes and you need it you will know. If it does not come then fine...don't sweat it.

 

People change too as time goes on with different life experiences. Sometimes people do not believe in God. Years later they will.

 

But, make no mistake about it. I was always taught that Jesus is more forgiving then many are led to believe.....people judge very harshly in today's society. People make outlandish opinions that appear to be facts.

 

JMO

Edited June 17, 2013 by Jules

[Sarge+ 3,436]

people judge very harshly in today's society. People make outlandish opinions appear to be facts.

 

No group of people anywhere on this earth is more guilty of this than Christians.

[Jules 98]

No group of people anywhere on this earth is more guilty of this than Christians.

 

You could be right, but many Christians even look down on Catholics too....

[Jules 98]

I also think there is a misconception often put out there that Muslims hate Christians more then anything. They do not like them but the people they hate the most has always been the Jews.

 

 

Religious wars will never be won on this planet IMO.....

Edited June 17, 2013 by Jules