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Thanatos

Philosophical Ramblings

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I'm glad someone brought this up. IMO, atheism is not very different from religiosity and for one simple reason: Both rely on the same concept of faith to prove or disprove the existence of God. Which is a completely futile exercise in and of itself. Regardless, you can't tell one group of people "you can't prove God exists!" then turn around and call yourself an atheist because you rely on that same faith to tell someone he DOESN'T exist. You can't prove it and he can't prove it. It makes one no better than the other regardless of the moral high ground they are trying to pursue. This is why I prefer to call myself an agnostic. It is especially important if you're basing your preference on science v religion. Science demands evidence, and in terms of God or gods, there cannot be any evidence. Thus agnosticism fits best.

 

But back to the OT...in creating religion, humans made one fatal mistake: Giving Gods human characteristics. And from that stems the oppressive nature of religion, ie. anti-homosexuality.

 

I don't see how asking someone to prove that god exists is the same as them reversing the question on you. There has never been evidence that God exists, people shouldn't have to prove that something doesn't exist when there was never anything to prove that he existed in the first place.

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It's not the particular congregation Dmac, it's my understanding of the Bible and interpretation of it leaving very little wiggle room. It doesn't matter what a particular point of view a particular congregation holds when I feel there is no way to read the Bible another way in this particular instance, (such as the thing with gays). Like I said, that wasn't the reason I left. The church as a whole treats gay people very poorly, and I just think that if people didn't look at the Bible first, but asked themselves whether or not it was okay to do and say what they were saying, that they would no longer believe it.

 

I also feel that the Bible clearly teaches young earth, six-day creationism, and this is in complete contradiction with pretty much everything science says. It's like the Bible is telling me the sky is green when I can look up and see that its blue.

 

Feel free to try to put the time period in perspective for this:

Exodus 21:20-21 “When a man strikes his slave, male or female, with a rod and the slave dies under his hand, he shall be avenged. But if the slave survives a day or two, he is not to be avenged, for the slave is his money."

 

So you can beat your slave as long as he doesn't die as a direct result. If he dies after a few days, then there is no need to punish the slaver because he's already been punished by the financial loss occurred by having his slave die. In other words, this passage treats slaves as less-than-human, which is my issue.

 

This imo does start with the congregation. I'm not gonna argue with you if your stance in this is that people who claim to be homosexual should be allowed to marry, and if you support it. That's personal, and a theological clash with the Bible, so if that's how you feel then you are making the "right decision" by walking away. But if not, but rather your issue resides with how they are treated poorly, I really do think it comes down to where you go to church...

 

There are many churches that are completely against gays and treat them as though they hate the sin, but not the sinner. Heck, among the ones who actually understand the concept of being a real Christian, I've seen more be very tolerant to people who claim to be gay then not. One of the churches I go to is an extremely close to the vest type, Bible thumping church full of conservatives who go as far into the conservative role (both religiously and politically) to where the only instrument used in Church is a single piano, and there's no choir, we just all sing.

 

I've seen that same church embrace people who have claimed to be gay and wanting to change as well as I've seen them fully embrace, and even accept more a daughter of their deacon being pregnant with nobody having any clue of who the girl's baby's dad is. I really do think the church you go to can make a big difference.

 

As to your later point about verses regarding the slaves/servants and how they should be treated... This is the perfect example actually of exactly why it's so crucial to understand he time period in which the verse originates from.

 

Slaves and Servants had a completely different meaning the period of both the old and the new testament. Slaves- at least refereed to in the Bible chose to be slaves for various reasons stemming from having no money, or owing a debt to another. Under the Mosaic laws:

 

- Murdering a slave was punishable by death. (Ex. 21:12)

- Masters were to protect their slaves, and in many events in which they didn't or injured their slaves, they had to let them go.(Ex. 21:26-27)

- Capturing people and turning them into slaves- or property was also forbidden from the Mosaic law.(Ex. 21:16)

- A servant running away from his master automatically meant the slave was free, and in many cases, it was illegal to oppress them into returning.

-Servants had the day of Sabbath off. (Ex. 20:10)

-Slaves spent the holidays with their owners if they chose. (Deut. 16:13-14)

 

It was nothing like what we think it is/was today. They were almost equals- to an extent- who worked under you. And honestly, his might come off crazy to an extent, or might make me seem like an extreme Bible thumper, but if there was servitude today, like there was during the OT, and we followed and added onto their strict laws, it could make a huge difference, for the better in the world....

 

And he wouldn't participate in the wars and genocide enacted by the Israelites in their quest for the "Promised Land".

 

See, this goes back to that whole context thing. Too often IMO people extract a few verses, or a few lines, and turn that from just that- into the entire picture. Especially when it comes to the OT.

 

Being a good God doesn't mean that he shouldn't be a just God. And honestly, that can't be said enough times.

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I was born and raised Catholic. My parents never really got me into going to Church often though. I think they were turned off slightly by their own strict upbringings.

 

I believe in God. I believe the Devil exists. I believe in Jesus.

 

Much of this is personal though and has to come from INSIDE, to me. If you need to pray you can....at any time. Sit down or just be alone anywhere and pray....

 

You don't have to be part of an organized religion IMO or a group if you don't want to. Because like I feel MUCH OF IT IS PERSONAL. If you need help or you need prayer a lot of it has to happen on your own when the right time comes. And when the time comes and you need it you will know. If it does not come then fine...don't sweat it.

 

People change too as time goes on with different life experiences. Sometimes people do not believe in God. Years later they will.

 

But, make no mistake about it. I was always taught that Jesus is more forgiving then many are led to believe.....people judge very harshly in today's society. People make outlandish opinions appear to be facts.

 

JMO

 

I could not agree with this more. Having a church is important IMO, especially for growth and because they should know what you're going through over anyone else...

 

But by no means is it the be all end all.

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I was born and raised Catholic. My parents never really got me into going to Church often though. I think they were turned off slightly by their own strict upbringings.

 

I believe in God. I believe the Devil exists. I believe in Jesus.

 

Much of this is personal though and has to come from INSIDE, to me. If you need to pray you can....at any time. Sit down or just be alone anywhere and pray....

 

You don't have to be part of an organized religion IMO or a group if you don't want to. Because like I feel MUCH OF IT IS PERSONAL.

 

You may be my favorite poster on the forums. Thanks.

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Guest Phailadelphia

I don't see how asking someone to prove that god exists is the same as them reversing the question on you. There has never been evidence that God exists, people shouldn't have to prove that something doesn't exist when there was never anything to prove that he existed in the first place.

 

The way you're presenting the argument makes the case from a preconceived conclusion. That's the wrong starting place for the question:

 

Does God exist?

 

Can anyone, ever, in the history of the world, answer this question with absolute evidence and confidence? Absolutely not, and this is my point. To say "God exists" is as equally incorrect as "God does not exist," and this is the dynamic I'm drawing being theism and atheism.

Edited by Phailadelphia

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What really bugs me at times though is when people treat Obama or any leader in the world as if he is a demi God who is to be worshipped for some slogan or promises....hope/change...whatever. And they often do not get what they want in return but they still follow.

 

I don't like to see people live in fear but I feel we are moving farther into an age where people are fearing the government more and more, fearing terrorists, fearing a potential development of war, fearing that they cannot feed and clothe themselves or family, fearing their own privacy now, fearing the future. Rules Rules Rules....more and more keep being made as well!!!

 

I also was not a fan of the Bush era after 9/11 when I feel they used religion as a crutch too in order to gain followers and justify war.

 

I honestly despise politicians sometimes. So sometimes I feel as if I have to justify my hate of the government and how much shit they pull off by believing that there is something UP THERE to pray to and look up to in times of need. Like in this entire messed up world/country we want to sometimes believe SOMEONE or SOMETHING good is watching....

 

In desperate times people may turn to religion more and more. So I think these are important questions out there too for young people to contemplate. I am in my early 30's (old lady here haha) and looking at profiles I think many of you are men aged 20 to 25.

 

These are confusing times folks!!!

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You could be right, but many Christians even look down on Catholics too....

 

But that's just it, man, too many Christians "look down" on other people, whether they're other Christians or not. It's absurd.

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Thanatos--I'd just like to say props for coming to these conclusions because they're a step in one of two directions:

1. Departing from the church entirely as a good person (which you are), and therefore annihilating the notion that religion makes people moral and/or of good character.

2. Eventually returning but deciding what you believe (the step I took). As I've said in these threads before, I believe the Bible is flawed by human hand. I believe many things that the church, as a whole, doesn't. I believe that our God has better things to do than take roll call on Sundays. I believe that God cares more about how we treat one another than about a list of ten rules (and all sins in general). I believe that God could give less of a shit about whether or not we donate to an extremely lucrative fund of un-taxed money (actually, I believe that God has no comprehension of or conscious regard for currency). I believe that God doesn't find us so important that he's involved in each of our individual lives. Individual religion, as a whole, is way too self important.

 

I find myself expressing my faith through music more than anything, now, and there is a long list of amazing Christian artists who still hold my attention to this day (RED, Casting Crowns, Oh Sleeper, Becoming the Archetype).

 

You made mention of God not giving us means to believe, and I think you should hear this song (if you have the time). It completely sides with that perspective (and is an amazing song, to boot):

 

 

Quick note: If any of you listen and like this--Oh, Sleeper is a metal band, and most of their music has a ton of screaming (it's still phenomenal, but it might not be your thing).

 

I dunno, man. I attend church less, don't pray at all, but if I'm ever to be "close to God," I think this is the closest I've ever been because each conclusion is one I've come to without pressure. Maybe that'll be the step you take.

 

Also, DMac, props for your ability to be very religious without being a condescending prick. You are exactly what a serious Christian should be, imo.

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Also, DMac, props for your ability to be very religious without being a condescending prick. You are exactly what a serious Christian should be, imo.

 

This is true.

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But that's just it, man, too many Christians "look down" on other people, whether they're other Christians or not. It's absurd.

 

Well that is where it can get tricky to me at times. Many Christians can be so staunch and judgemental I feel as if they can gain a "Jesus complex". They are not Jesus. They are just people...their purpose is not to judge and look down upon everyone.

 

Like I said, I was always taught that people underestimate the forgiving nature of Jesus Christ. That he does not expect us all to be perfect and flawless. We are supposed to try to be good people yes....but at times human nature is going to set in. Of course I am not talking about murdering someone or some horrific crime. Sex, lying, drinking, cheating....there are things humans will do that does not mean IMO they are going straight to hell.

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Mav, I don't know if you intended to do so or not, but your post just stinks of a condescending attitude. First of all, I wouldn't classify a lot of TGP's members as pure atheists. We do have some pronounced atheists, but I also think that TGP has a lot of members who are constantly thinking about and re-evaluating their stance on things. That's a great thing. Like I told Thanatos in my post earlier in this thread, it would have been completely fine if, after all of this pondering, he decided to stick with his religious faith. There are plenty of intellectual people who think day after day about their stance on religion and remain with their beliefs. Thomas Aquinas is a prime example of that.

 

I think it's unfair to label everyone who thinks outside of religious terms as "atheist." Atheism is simply and clearly the belief that there is no God, and nobody or nothing could convince you otherwise. I think most people here, including Thanatos, are open to the possibility of a God if they were convinced that God exists. Again, I'll give you the benefit of the doubt, but you have to re-read your post and see that it sounds like you're on some sort of high horse talking down to the rest of us.

 

I also don't think you've given Thanatos himself enough credit. He's an extremely intelligent guy, and it's obvious he put a ton of thought into this new direction in his life. You're treating him like he's some sort of lost sheep who has strayed from the rest of the pack. I don't think Thanatos would benefit very much from speaking with a church pastor. He probably already knows most if not all of what would be said by a pastor. Thanatos used to be very devoted to the Christian faith, so I'm sure there's not much that can be said that he doesn't already know about it. he doesn't need other people to challenge his decision when he himself has probably been challenging it internally for some time now, as he stated in his initial post that this change has taken more than a year to actually occur.

I'm going to write this off as this being close to home for you since I know you took a very similar path that Thanatos has so you're defensive but uhh...how was my post condescending?

 

 

I started out calling him a heathen with a smiley sticking his tounge out to give the indication it was a joke. I asked him if he spoke with a pastor about his feelings and if he didn't I'd recommend doing so. I talked about atheists dominating the board but no where in that post did I make a derogatory remark towards them. Outside of an argument in the Guantanamo Bay thread, Thanatos and I have very similar opinions so I have no reason to be condescending towards him.

 

Sometimes my emotions get the best of me and I'll stay stupid shit I regret. This clearly wasn't one of those times so I don't know what to tell you Matt.

 

Man, I completely forgot about Mav in terms of religious posters here.

 

And shocker of all shockers...I agree with him. Look at this thread: http://www.thegridir...t-religion-why/

 

Having 50% of the people identify as not-religious is a lot more than a normal sample in the US. TGP members are not religious, and the people here having a positive opinion of becoming an atheist isn't surprising. Not that it means anything negative about the people here. Its just like how a Christian would support you agreeing with their mindset.

 

EDIT: Sorry blots, it was late when I read your post and thought you were being facetious.

Edited by Maverick
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You could be right, but many Christians even look down on Catholics too....

 

 

There is no difference between Catholics and Christians, because Catholics are just a demonination of Christianity, and not a separate religion! :yep:

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I'm glad someone brought this up. IMO, atheism is not very different from religiosity and for one simple reason: Both rely on the same concept of faith to prove or disprove the existence of God. Which is a completely futile exercise in and of itself. Regardless, you can't tell one group of people "you can't prove God exists!" then turn around and call yourself an atheist because you rely on that same faith to tell someone he DOESN'T exist. You can't prove it and he can't prove it. It makes one no better than the other regardless of the moral high ground they are trying to pursue. This is why I prefer to call myself an agnostic. It is especially important if you're basing your preference on science v religion. Science demands evidence, and in terms of God or gods, there cannot be any evidence. Thus agnosticism fits best.

 

But back to the OT...in creating religion, humans made one fatal mistake: Giving Gods human characteristics. And from that stems the oppressive nature of religion, ie. anti-homosexuality.

 

 

What is your stance on the original post topic than Taylor, do you believe in God or something else?

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Well if you wanna get technical! :p You do have a point though.

 

Differences:http://www.diffen.com/difference/Catholicism_vs_Christianity

 

:clap: Thanks for posting that link, it's actually very well researched and descriptive.

 

But if you look at all the things discussed and reviewed on that site, would you not agree that the differences are not very foundational and fundamental such as in Islam between Sunni Muslims and Shia Muslims? :shrug:

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I'm going to write this off as this being close to home for you since I know you took a very similar path that Thanatos has so you're defensive but uhh...how was my post condescending?

 

 

I started out calling him a heathen with a smiley sticking his tounge out to give the indication it was a joke. I asked him if he spoke with a pastor about his feelings and if he didn't I'd recommend doing so. I talked about atheists dominating the board but no where in that post did I make a derogatory remark towards them. Outside of an argument in the Guantanamo Bay thread, Thanatos and I have very similar opinions so I have no reason to be condescending towards him.

 

Sometimes my emotions get the best of me and I'll stay stupid shit I regret. This clearly wasn't one of those times so I don't know what to tell you Matt.

 

 

 

Now Matthew, if you don't mind accusing a non-christian of being condescending, blots takes the fucking cake. This post reeks of assholery. First, you're using a poll from 2012. I'm disappointed youre using outdated resources to back your argument. Secondly, using a poll like that is laughable. I don't even know if we have that many active users here that post once a week. It's easy for anyone to surf the forums and click on a poll choice. I'm talking about the actual community that participates in discussions that you and I know. When it came to topics around God/religion/etc, its pretty much DMac, Thanatos, maybe another person or two and myself against the rest.

 

If you rather use a poll populated by Bob and Molly so you have an excuse to act like the typical asshole you are be my guest, but just like football sometimes the numbers don't tell the whole story.

 

 

:clap: :clap:

 

I agree with what your saying 100% in this post Maverick, I also share yours and Dmac (Joel) views on God and religion. I was raised and am a Catholic, but more generally I identify myself as a Christian because I have no discrimination or bias against other Christian demoninations because they all believe in the most fundamental and foundational pillars of Christianity! :yep:

 

I also have a high degree of respect for the posts that both you and Dmac make in topic threads like this one. You both have a high degree of respect and compassion towards others. Some others have arrogant views that are anti-Christian and are very narrow minded and ignorant towards others beliefs! :yep:

Edited by CARDINAL
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There is no difference between Catholics and Christians, because Catholics are just a demonination of Christianity, and not a separate religion! :yep:

 

There's this sacrament called Reconciliation that begs to differ. Other denominations of Christianity even differ on the most fundamental levels.

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So much going on in here, I'm not sure how to respond to everything, but I'll give it a try.

 

I haven't always believed that the best solution has been non-conflict oriented, but after a while I figured out just how empathetic I am, and why I always want to try to understand other people and why they believe something. And people constantly have different outlooks on things, due to various circumstances. That's why I can't believe in anything that has hard and fast rules. It does not make sense. Stealing is a crime, but it may be a means to survival for some. Murder may be wrong, but what if you killed someone who trespassed in your house and shot a family member of yours? Morality does not exist in an organized body, it is grown through experiences, and it's the reason why something terrible can be the humane decision from another point of view.

 

I suppose by definition I would be an weak atheist. I don't believe god exists, and I'm not on the fence about it. However, I cannot deny that the absence of proof prevents me from saying there is absolutely no way a god exists.

 

I also could not stand an ideology that actively oppresses anyone and attempts to take away their rights. If there is no freedom in your existence, you may as well not exist.

 

About condescending christians, I believe Gandhi put it the best. Paraphrasing here but, I don't know about christians, but that Jesus Christ guy was pretty smart. Whether or not he existed, was divine (he probably did exist, but there were a lot of messiahs running around in that time, he preached a message of progression for mankind. Not being caught in the old ways of intolerance and unjustness. I still actively live with some christian values like treating others the way you'd want to be treated.

 

I don't post here a lot because this stuff is too heavy for a person who wants to believe that people are good.

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There's this sacrament called Reconciliation that begs to differ. Other denominations of Christianity even differ on the most fundamental levels.

 

Could you explain further on what you mean please? Thanks :yep:

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lolCardinal

 

off with his neg spam again

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So much going on in here, I'm not sure how to respond to everything, but I'll give it a try.

 

I haven't always believed that the best solution has been non-conflict oriented, but after a while I figured out just how empathetic I am, and why I always want to try to understand other people and why they believe something. And people constantly have different outlooks on things, due to various circumstances. That's why I can't believe in anything that has hard and fast rules. It does not make sense. Stealing is a crime, but it may be a means to survival for some. Murder may be wrong, but what if you killed someone who trespassed in your house and shot a family member of yours? Morality does not exist in an organized body, it is grown through experiences, and it's the reason why something terrible can be the humane decision from another point of view.

 

I suppose by definition I would be an weak atheist. I don't believe god exists, and I'm not on the fence about it. However, I cannot deny that the absence of proof prevents me from saying there is absolutely no way a god exists.

 

I also could not stand an ideology that actively oppresses anyone and attempts to take away their rights. If there is no freedom in your existence, you may as well not exist.

 

About condescending christians, I believe Gandhi put it the best. Paraphrasing here but, I don't know about christians, but that Jesus Christ guy was pretty smart. Whether or not he existed, was divine (he probably did exist, but there were a lot of messiahs running around in that time, he preached a message of progression for mankind. Not being caught in the old ways of intolerance and unjustness. I still actively live with some christian values like treating others the way you'd want to be treated.

 

I don't post here a lot because this stuff is too heavy for a person who wants to believe that people are good.

 

 

yeah Reid I recall the quote by Gandhi that you are referring too, and he is very correct on his overall assessment of Christianity and what some of it's internal divisions are. :yep:

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See, this goes back to that whole context thing. Too often IMO people extract a few verses, or a few lines, and turn that from just that- into the entire picture. Especially when it comes to the OT.

 

Being a good God doesn't mean that he shouldn't be a just God. And honestly, that can't be said enough times.

 

While I respect your point on good vs. just, it always irked me when I read about the plagues or the wars Israel fought with God at their side. It made me ask things like, "Mom, why did God go to war?" It also made me ask: If God is so heavily involved in the Old Testament and the New Testament - not through our hearts like people say now, but actually directly intervening in human wars and political affairs - why is he hardly involved in the world today? This isn't something I'm bringing up to disprove God; this was one of the first things I asked myself when I got on the road to where I am today.

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I think I should clarify to avoid confusion: what is written about God in the Old Testament is not what turned me away from God in the end. It merely moved me into a stage of faith development, where you doubt and question so that you can define what you believe in. What turned me away from God was how his "followers" act nowadays. I actually hate that I think like that, considering I'm basing this off of the people you hear in the news. Michelle Bachman is NOT your average Christian, but that's all you hear about when it comes to Christians - the religious right and the radicals. I'm not really certain if I'm an atheist or not - people have told me that it's natural and actually healthy for myself to be in this stage where I "don't know", because it lets me define who I will be when it comes to faith. It's just hard to choose a path that keeps with God because of all the bad I hear about the other people on this path. This doesn't apply to the people here; the religious folks on this site are quite reasonable, and also very faithful. Faith is just something I'm having a tough time with right now.

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I think I should clarify to avoid confusion: what is written about God in the Old Testament is not what turned me away from God in the end. It merely moved me into a stage of faith development, where you doubt and question so that you can define what you believe in. What turned me away from God was how his "followers" act nowadays. I actually hate that I think like that, considering I'm basing this off of the people you hear in the news. Michelle Bachman is NOT your average Christian, but that's all you hear about when it comes to Christians - the religious right and the radicals. I'm not really certain if I'm an atheist or not - people have told me that it's natural and actually healthy for myself to be in this stage where I "don't know", because it lets me define who I will be when it comes to faith. It's just hard to choose a path that keeps with God because of all the bad I hear about the other people on this path. This doesn't apply to the people here; the religious folks on this site are quite reasonable, and also very faithful. Faith is just something I'm having a tough time with right now.

 

 

What other type of involvement in your church did you do other than attend Mass? :shrug:

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What other type of involvement in your church did you do other than attend Mass? :shrug:

 

We went and served food and played with children at a Muslim private school a few weeks after 9/11. It was actually quite touching, but also sad because there was a police car in front of the school. One of my sister's friend's parents (a member of a separate church) went around telling people that he was going to beat the shit out of the "sandniggers" because they would have to come and pick their kids up at some time. That was an early experience with intolerance, but I can mostly block that part out because of how good it felt to make those Muslim children feel good.

 

I've gone on several retreats with my church (a while ago) and a retreat every year for school.

 

I was never a regular church attendee. I participated in events like retreats, charities, and stuff like the Muslim school, but I never felt like attending church affected my religious development at all. It actually ran contrary to my belief that people should make religion personal (or at least it ran contrary in my eyes).

 

I was moderately active in my church, but that has literally nothing to do with my faith situation.

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