Philosophical Ramblings

[CARDINAL 205]

We went and served food and played with children at a Muslim private school a few weeks after 9/11. It was actually quite touching, but also sad because there was a police car in front of the school. One of my sister's friend's parents (a member of a separate church) went around telling people that he was going to beat the shit out of the "sandniggers" because they would have to come and pick their kids up at some time. That was an early experience with intolerance, but I can mostly block that part out because of how good it felt to make those Muslim children feel good.

 

I've gone on several retreats with my church (a while ago) and a retreat every year for school.

 

I was never a regular church attendee. I participated in events like retreats, charities, and stuff like the Muslim school, but I never felt like attending church affected my religious development at all. It actually ran contrary to my belief that people should make religion personal (or at least it ran contrary in my eyes).

 

I was moderately active in my church, but that has literally nothing to do with my faith situation.

 

 

I actually think you make a very good point. That reading and understanding the Bible should be done both on a personal level and at Church, but than practiced more than spoken.

 

Pope Francis made a quote a few weeks after he was elected Pope in early March this year. He said that Christianity and the teachings of Christ should be done through actions rather than through words, that a person's actions should be enough than having to explain through words. I thought that is the way that all Christians should live, and a very thoughtful and interesting comment that Pope Francis said.

[Jules 98]

Thanks for posting that link, it's actually very well researched and descriptive.

 

But if you look at all the things discussed and reviewed on that site, would you not agree that the differences are not very foundational and fundamental such as in Islam between Sunni Muslims and Shia Muslims?

 

I would have to read it all over again and sometimes this stuff can give me a headache lol. You are right though, there are not always a lot of differences if you really study it.

 

BTW I think the term people have called me or my family at times is "Cafeteria Catholic." Meaning I/we might just pick and choose what we want to follow in our religion without always realizing it. Like I said we are not too strict and never have been and that can bug some people. But, then again we all have our personal lives to lead and sometimes we adapt our faith in different ways too IMO.

 

I love this section of the board btw!! Good stuff to read. Keep it coming guys.

[Maverick 791]

There is no difference between Catholics and Christians, because Catholics are just a demonination of Christianity, and not a separate religion!

 

Eh. Catholics believe in the seven sacraments and in being a good person whereas not all Christian denominations do. I'm not saying these denominations believe you don't have to be a good person in life, but that good works won't get you to heaven. I grew up as a Roman Catholic for 12 years so I know a decent amount about the religion.

 

"Christian" is a very loose term nowadays.

[blotsfan 2,112]

Now Matthew, if you don't mind accusing a non-christian of being condescending, blots takes the fucking cake. This post reeks of assholery. First, you're using a poll from 2012. I'm disappointed youre using outdated resources to back your argument. Secondly, using a poll like that is laughable. I don't even know if we have that many active users here that post once a week. It's easy for anyone to surf the forums and click on a poll choice. I'm talking about the actual community that participates in discussions that you and I know. When it came to topics around God/religion/etc, its pretty much DMac, Thanatos, maybe another person or two and myself against the rest.

 

If you rather use a poll populated by Bob and Molly so you have an excuse to act like the typical asshole you are be my guest, but just like football sometimes the numbers don't tell the whole story.

I've never seen someone get this mad at me agreeing with them...

[BwareDWare94 723]

Eh. Catholics believe in the seven sacraments and in being a good person whereas not all Christian denominations do. I'm not saying these denominations believe you don't have to be a good person in life, but that good works won't get you to heaven. I grew up as a Roman Catholic for 12 years so I know a decent amount about the religion.

 

"Christian" is a very loose term nowadays.

 

Catholics believe that one mortal sin not confessed is a first class ticket to Hell. I'm not sure they believe that being a good person does all that much haha.

[Maverick 791]

Catholics believe that one mortal sin not confessed is a first class ticket to Hell. I'm not sure they believe that being a good person does all that much haha.

 

Well yeah committing a mortal sin introduces a different aspect to the situation.

 

I even looked at a couple of resources online just to confirm I haven't forgotten since it's been almost 10 years, but yes good works and faith are both vital to salvation in Catholicism.

[Maverick 791]

I've never seen someone get this mad at me agreeing with them...

 

Lol it was late when I posted that. I thought you were being sarcastic cause you rarely agree with me.

 

Apology sent.

[BwareDWare94 723]

Well yeah committing a mortal sin introduces a different aspect to the situation.

 

I even looked at a couple of resources online just to confirm I haven't forgotten since it's been almost 10 years, but yes good works and faith are both vital to salvation in Catholicism.

 

Too much is vital, not to mention that the Catholic church goes to bat for the republican party so they essentially try to control the way their congregation thinks.

 

For me, religion is about being convinced about certain things, making my own decisions, and not following a damn rule book.

[Maverick 791]

That's your definition of religion? Religion in this world is the opposite of that lol...

[BwareDWare94 723]

That's your definition of religion? Religion in this world is the opposite of that lol...

 

That's my perspective on the way I will go about religion, not the way religion thinks it is.

 

Whether we like it or not, and whether it was intended to be or not, religion is a form of social control and more people should ask questions instead of blindly following a guide dog that might lead them over a cliff.

[Maverick 791]

That's my perspective on the way I will go about religion, not the way religion thinks it is.

 

Whether we like it or not, and whether it was intended to be or not, religion is a form of social control and more people should ask questions instead of blindly following a guide dog that might lead them over a cliff.

 

Oh I agree with you, I was just saying that's not how religion is defined in this world unfortunately.

 

I see myself as a born-again believer and don't like to be categorized in a religion because there's too much negativity surrounding the word 'religion'. Most of the time it's used to manipulate people and induce propaganda.

[DonovanMcnabb for H.O.F 2,241]

While I respect your point on good vs. just, it always irked me when I read about the plagues or the wars Israel fought with God at their side. It made me ask things like, "Mom, why did God go to war?" It also made me ask: If God is so heavily involved in the Old Testament and the New Testament - not through our hearts like people say now, but actually directly intervening in human wars and political affairs - why is he hardly involved in the world today? This isn't something I'm bringing up to disprove God; this was one of the first things I asked myself when I got on the road to where I am today.

 

That's not something that I can answer because frankly, I don't have an answer to that, and it's something that I struggle with myself.

 

But I will say this... If the Bible is an indicator of anything, it's that God has a plan for how things will unfold in the world, if something- or someone gets in the way of it, I wouldn't doubt for a second that he'd step in and intervene in some form or fashion. Divine intervention happens even today all the time. Maybe not to the extremity of the Bible times where God would step in, but even then... Just about any time he has, has been to protect the "Promise Land".

 

We have free will for a reason, and a book that I, and many believers in Christ believe to have all the answers if read properly and understood. That in of itself as far as I'm concerned is a good enough reason for a God to not step in every time there's a tragedy of some sorts.

Edited June 17, 2013 by DonovanMcnabb for H.O.F

[SteVo+ 3,702]

I see myself as a born-again believer

 

Me too. I'm a born-again athiest.

[Thanatos 2,847]

This imo does start with the congregation. I'm not gonna argue with you if your stance in this is that people who claim to be homosexual should be allowed to marry, and if you support it. That's personal, and a theological clash with the Bible, so if that's how you feel then you are making the "right decision" by walking away. But if not, but rather your issue resides with how they are treated poorly, I really do think it comes down to where you go to church...

 

There are many churches that are completely against gays and treat them as though they hate the sin, but not the sinner. Heck, among the ones who actually understand the concept of being a real Christian, I've seen more be very tolerant to people who claim to be gay then not. One of the churches I go to is an extremely close to the vest type, Bible thumping church full of conservatives who go as far into the conservative role (both religiously and politically) to where the only instrument used in Church is a single piano, and there's no choir, we just all sing.

 

I've seen that same church embrace people who have claimed to be gay and wanting to change as well as I've seen them fully embrace, and even accept more a daughter of their deacon being pregnant with nobody having any clue of who the girl's baby's dad is. I really do think the church you go to can make a big difference.

 

No, I'm still not making my point.

 

What I'm saying is I believe a church who does dislike gays is simply reading the Bible correctly. My personal feeling.

 

As to your later point about verses regarding the slaves/servants and how they should be treated... This is the perfect example actually of exactly why it's so crucial to understand he time period in which the verse originates from.

 

Slaves and Servants had a completely different meaning the period of both the old and the new testament. Slaves- at least refereed to in the Bible chose to be slaves for various reasons stemming from having no money, or owing a debt to another. Under the Mosaic laws:

 

- Murdering a slave was punishable by death. (Ex. 21:12)

 

No. The verse you quote states that if you murder a person it is punishable by death. It does not specifically mention slaves. Now, I'll agree that if a person flat out kills their slave, they are to be avenged, whatever that means, but if you read on down, 9 more verses, you find the passage about being allowed to beat your slave nearly to death, so long as he survives one or two days after.

 

- Masters were to protect their slaves, and in many events in which they didn't or injured their slaves, they had to let them go.(Ex. 21:26-27)

- Capturing people and turning them into slaves- or property was also forbidden from the Mosaic law.(Ex. 21:16)

- A servant running away from his master automatically meant the slave was free, and in many cases, it was illegal to oppress them into returning.

-Servants had the day of Sabbath off. (Ex. 20:10)

-Slaves spent the holidays with their owners if they chose. (Deut. 16:13-14)

 

1. Yes if a person knocked out someone's tooth or put out someone's eye they had to let them go free.

2. The idea and the reason for why they were put to death was the kidnapping. Clearly God has no problem with making others slaves, as the Israelis did this to foreign nations.

3. You have a verse for this one?

4. This is more because "God is holy." No one was to do work on the Sabbath, period. This isn't a "slaves are people" thing, this is a God is holy, and no one will work on the seventh day.

5. Same as before, everyone was to rejoice at the Feast because God is holy and this is a celebration of that.

 

It was nothing like what we think it is/was today. They were almost equals- to an extent- who worked under you. And honestly, his might come off crazy to an extent, or might make me seem like an extreme Bible thumper, but if there was servitude today, like there was during the OT, and we followed and added onto their strict laws, it could make a huge difference, for the better in the world....

 

Equals who worked under you that you could beat to the point where they could die two days later and that was okay.

 

See, this goes back to that whole context thing. Too often IMO people extract a few verses, or a few lines, and turn that from just that- into the entire picture. Especially when it comes to the OT.

 

Being a good God doesn't mean that he shouldn't be a just God. And honestly, that can't be said enough times.

 

How on earth does slavery and that idea mean he is a just God? If anything, in my experience, it is entirely the other way around. Christians are the one who extract verses to prove their case, (again, homosexuality), while ignoring the verses around it that they no longer follow.

[Thanatos 2,847]

Heathen.

 

This is the most atheistic site I've belonged to so you've definitely chosen wisely where to share this type of change.

 

EDIT: Speaking of which, I skimmed through your post again and I didn't see you spoke to your pastor about this. I'd recommend sharing these thoughts with someone of that stature. Like I just said, this site is dominated by atheists so besides DMac you're just going to get feel good posts agreeing with you. There's nothing wrong with that, but from seeing your posts the last couple of years you seem like the type of person that would embrace a man with the knowledge to challenge your new mindset rather than "good to hear bro" or "that's awesome news man."

 

Just my .02 Thanny, take it for what it's worth. I will also be praying for you.

 

Just fyi, I didn't feel that came off as condescending at all. It's wise advice. Although this is the internet, so this is pretty much the most religious site I've been a part of. Odd, the different experiences.

 

I didn't specifically mention it, but yes I have talked with my pastor, many many times. I have walked down to the seminary and engaged those people as well. None of them have answers I am satisfied with.

[Jules 98]

The "Our Father". I was thinking about this the last day or so. This thread has been interesting to me.

 

I often have recited the "Our Father" prayer in times of need. Whether it be out of habit or because I really feel it....it has helped and it is always in my memory.

 

The traditional version is what I know and was taught as a child:

http://www.catholicplanet.com/catholic/our.htm

 

 

But, I also have been thinking about organized religion and how it has often turned myself off and my parents.....who grew up heavily within it. The scandals over the years in the Catholic Church have taken a toll on many I know.

 

So I guess I am not sure how much in the Church I still always like to believe in even though I fully believe in God and still even use some of the Catholic prayers on my own.

 

That's not something that I can answer because frankly, I don't have an answer to that, and it's something that I struggle with myself.

 

But I will say this... If the Bible is an indicator of anything, it's that God has a plan for how things will unfold in the world, if something- or someone gets in the way of it, I wouldn't doubt for a second that he'd step in and intervene in some form or fashion. Divine intervention happens even today all the time. Maybe not to the extremity of the Bible times where God would step in, but even then... Just about any time he has, has been to protect the "Promise Land".

 

We have free will for a reason, and a book that I, and many believers in Christ believe to have all the answers if read properly and understood. That in of itself as far as I'm concerned is a good enough reason for a God to not step in every time there's a tragedy of some sorts.

 

 

Excellent post.

 

"The Plan." Free will for man........all of it.

 

Oh I agree with you, I was just saying that's not how religion is defined in this world unfortunately.

 

I see myself as a born-again believer and don't like to be categorized in a religion because there's too much negativity surrounding the word 'religion'. Most of the time it's used to manipulate people and induce propaganda.

 

So true. But, in general that is what we are surrounded with all the time I feel these days. PROPAGANDA. It is up to us to sort it all out which makes it confusing and crazy IMO.

 

 

The media is horrible...I cannot begin to describe how badly I feel about them at times and the agendas they all have. We are constantly surrounded by different agendas IMO.

Edited June 20, 2013 by Barracuda

[CARDINAL 205]

The "Our Father". I was thinking about this the last day or so. This thread has been interesting to me.

 

I often have recited the "Our Father" prayer in times of need. Whether it be out of habit or because I really feel it....it has helped and it is always in my memory.

 

The traditional version is what I know and was taught as a child:

http://www.catholicplanet.com/catholic/our.htm

 

 

But, I also have been thinking about organized religion and how it has often turned myself off and my parents.....who grew up heavily within it. The scandals over the years in the Catholic Church have taken a toll on many I know.

 

So I guess I am not sure how much in the Church I still always like to believe in even though I fully believe in God and still even use some of the Catholic prayers on my own.

 

 

I assume you are a Catholic. Do you have faith that Pope Francis can clean up the recent scandals that have affected the Church to a degree?

[DonovanMcnabb for H.O.F 2,241]

No, I'm still not making my point.

 

What I'm saying is I believe a church who does dislike gays is simply reading the Bible correctly. My personal feeling.

 

 

 

No. The verse you quote states that if you murder a person it is punishable by death. It does not specifically mention slaves. Now, I'll agree that if a person flat out kills their slave, they are to be avenged, whatever that means, but if you read on down, 9 more verses, you find the passage about being allowed to beat your slave nearly to death, so long as he survives one or two days after.

 

The Bible is clear on the mosaic laws and death. If you kill someone, regardless of whether or not they are your slave, you should expect to have death heading your way. Because a slave is still concerned a human. Slaves are considered just as valuable as the free in terms of life.

 

1. Yes if a person knocked out someone's tooth or put out someone's eye they had to let them go free.

 

I have no intentions of turning this into a battle of semantics. But I take those verses to very much mean that if the master harms a his servant to the point of physical damage, then the master shows he doesn't deserve them and has to let them go. The example that were used doesn't deter from the overall point...

 

2. The idea and the reason for why they were put to death was the kidnapping. Clearly God has no problem with making others slaves, as the Israelis did this to foreign nations.

 

44. Both thy bondmen, and thy bondmaids, which thou shalt have, shall be of the heathen that are round about you of them shall ye buy bondmen and bondmaids. 45 Moreover of the children of the strangers that do sojourn among you, of them shall ye buy, and of their families that are with you, which they begat in your land: and they shall be your possession. 46 And ye shall take them as an inheritance for your children after you, to inherit them for a possession they shall be your bondmen for ever: but over your brethren the children of Israel, ye shall not rule one over another with rigour.

 

The use of the word "bondmen" is key. During that time period, when you had a bond against you, slavery was a way to make up for it. Regardless, the facts still stand that they had to be treated a certain way.

 

3. You have a verse for this one?

Sorry about that. >_> Deut. 23:15-16

 

How on earth does slavery and that idea mean he is a just God? If anything, in my experience, it is entirely the other way around. Christians are the one who extract verses to prove their case, (again, homosexuality), while ignoring the verses around it that they no longer follow.

 

Like I said, during that time period, slavery then wasn't the same as the slavery we confuse with today. And that makes all the difference imo.

[DonovanMcnabb for H.O.F 2,241]

The "Our Father". I was thinking about this the last day or so. This thread has been interesting to me.

 

I often have recited the "Our Father" prayer in times of need. Whether it be out of habit or because I really feel it....it has helped and it is always in my memory.

 

The traditional version is what I know and was taught as a child:

http://www.catholicplanet.com/catholic/our.htm

 

 

But, I also have been thinking about organized religion and how it has often turned myself off and my parents.....who grew up heavily within it. The scandals over the years in the Catholic Church have taken a toll on many I know.

 

So I guess I am not sure how much in the Church I still always like to believe in even though I fully believe in God and still even use some of the Catholic prayers on my own.

 

Don't take this the wrong way or anything because my family was at one point Catholic before we converted to Christianity...

 

But the way organized religion is ran under Catholicism to me is where it just gets really uncomfortable. The idea of a Pope in of itself begins a very bad situations. Not trying to turn this into the TGP crusades or anything, but just my $.2. lol.

[CARDINAL 205]

So true. But, in general that is what we are surrounded with all the time I feel these days. PROPAGANDA. It is up to us to sort it all out which makes it confusing and crazy IMO.

 

 

The media is horrible...I cannot begin to describe how badly I feel about them at times and the agendas they all have. We are constantly surrounded by different agendas IMO.

 

I agree, there is minimal integrity in most if not all media outlets, regardless of their affiliation or bias at which they choose to report on news stories. A little more objective reporting would go a long way to improve their reputation and image with the general public!

 

Don't take this the wrong way or anything because my family was at one point Catholic before we converted to Christianity...

 

But the way organized religion is ran under Catholicism to me is where it just gets really uncomfortable. The idea of a Pope in of itself begins a very bad situations. Not trying to turn this into the TGP crusades or anything, but just my $.2. lol.

 

Catholics are Christians too Joel, just a different demonination, such as Baptists, Lutherans, etc.

 

 

Why do you not like the Pope, or maybe why don't you like the position of the Pope in general?

Edited June 21, 2013 by Zack_of_Steel

[Jules 98]

I assume you are a Catholic. Do you have faith that Pope Francis can clean up the recent scandals that have affected the Church to a degree?

 

That would be nice if he can help some move on from recent/past scandals. I might get into more of this later on (been really busy lately).

 

Memories are strong though so nothing may help either.

 

My sister btw is very religious and really seems to be fond of Pope Francis so far.

[Jules 98]

Don't take this the wrong way or anything because my family was at one point Catholic before we converted to Christianity...

 

But the way organized religion is ran under Catholicism to me is where it just gets really uncomfortable. The idea of a Pope in of itself begins a very bad situations. Not trying to turn this into the TGP crusades or anything, but just my $.2. lol.

 

No offense taken at all. I understand the views. I sometimes have felt the same way. Then again with just about any religion sometimes I feel it can make others uncomfortable at times or make you believe the followers are near brainwashed.

 

That's why once again I just think so much of religion is so personal but at the same time I think they can almost get too politically correct these days to the point they don't teach our youth to want to look into it enough either. If we have choices as human beings then we also have the choices to explore religion/whats out there and sometimes I feel todays society wants to take that option away too.

 

JMO

[Thanatos 2,847]

The Bible is clear on the mosaic laws and death. If you kill someone, regardless of whether or not they are your slave, you should expect to have death heading your way. Because a slave is still concerned a human. Slaves are considered just as valuable as the free in terms of life.

 

I have no intentions of turning this into a battle of semantics. But I take those verses to very much mean that if the master harms a his servant to the point of physical damage, then the master shows he doesn't deserve them and has to let them go. The example that were used doesn't deter from the overall point...

 

This may be your feeling, but it isnt what that passage says. You can't have an interpretation of "cannot cause physical harm or he gets to go free" when in Exodus 21:20 it says that a master can beat his slave as long as he doesn't die within 1-2 days of being beaten. Obviously, a master can cause physical harm to a bondservant and that is within the Mosaic Law. Therefore, the passage about knocking out a tooth or an eye must refer to egregious physical harm... or they are contradictory passages, as I'm not sure what is more egregious than beating a man to the point of death.

 

The use of the word "bondmen" is key. During that time period, when you had a bond against you, slavery was a way to make up for it. Regardless, the facts still stand that they had to be treated a certain way.

 

The Israelis took people as slaves more than just because they had a bond against them.

 

And yeah you had to be treated a certain way... you could be beaten nearly to death and that was just fine.

 

Like I said, during that time period, slavery then wasn't the same as the slavery we confuse with today. And that makes all the difference imo.

 

Regardless of whether they were a slave or an indentured servant, or whether they deserved it or not, your problem passage is Exodus 21:20. For this particular problem, at least.

[Thanatos 2,847]

I am going to write a paper on this subject, as I think having that handy when the inevitable conversation with my parents happens will be a good idea. I can refer back to it with the different reasons laid out, would be much easier than thinking on my feet. (It will happen, btw, no fear on that subject. Even if I didn't want to, my girlfriend wouldn't let me back out, lol.)

 

Anyhow, all that is to say, something I was thinking through the other day. Isn't the Christian idea of a all-powerful, all-good, and all-knowing God that allows evil the ultimate utilitarian position? That is, that the ends justify the means, no matter how horrendous those means are?

 

Just as an example, let's look at a particular scenario. A little girl, 3 years old, is raped and murdered after being kidnapped by a person. What the Christian is saying is that God had the knowledge of the event, was able to stop it, is a good God, and yet for some reason did not stop it. That in the end, it will be better that that event happened than that it did not. (Alternatively, there is the free will argument. Given that my parents are determinists, very Calvinistic, this probably won't come into play, but it would be a different argument altogether. I do think there is an equally strong argument against that, along these same lines. I suppose then, that this argument is more anti-Calvinistic Christianity than Arminian Christianity.)

 

Even if we grant that God has perfect foreknowledge of what will happen, could we ever say that someone who allows that girl to be raped and killed with full power to stop it is perfectly good and worthy of worship? I just don't see how that can fit with the image presented of a holy and just God.

 

You can, of course, insert whatever example you like- the Holocaust, Stalin, Polpot, etc. All the catastrophes and tragedies in human history; God is somehow justified in allowing them to happen because of the good that came out of them? I just don't see it.

[blotsfan 2,112]

To play devils advocate (or Angels advocate), the theological explanation is that if God meddles when bad things are happening, it takes away any value from someone being good. If you are good when you can't do evil, that means you made a conscious choice. If you're good because evil is impossible, your character means nothing.