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KempBolt

Your All Overrated Team

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That's probably the essence of the debate, honestly. I feel it should come into play more, and I obviously weigh it more when looking at or ranking players. Kemp, Thanatos, etc clearly don't.

Which is fine, of course. Lol. I understand and definitely agree that it might seem unfair to the likes of non-QBs and the like, but is it really fair to put less impactful players higher on the list simply because they aren't QBs? I would say no.

EDIT: Overall, I feel my list would be fairly balanced. It would probably be QB heavy... Weak on WRs, with a nice mix of a variety of positions throughout the rest. I think a list of mine would actually have a great position density than anything NFL.com or ESPN could provide. Kickers are pretty lame, but a punters importance cannot be overstated. Centers need more love (oline in general, really). Epic interior Dlineman never get he love unless they can rush the QB. Again, ptop heavy on QBs probably, but much more balanced throughout.
/edit

Again, it's a very delicate balancing act. Very subjective, naturally. And there is no right or wrong answer, at least in my opinion -- only different faces of the same die.

Edited by Favre4Ever

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Oh no, that's fine. Lol.

 

I do disagree with your example, because it doesn't really illustrate the point well. I think you are trying to give examples of something you don't really understand -- which makes the conversation increasingly difficult. Granted, it is my opinion, so I don't exactly expect you to get in my head and know how I view certain players... But Matt Ryan is clearly not one of them I view that highly.

 

And it also appears I value centers more than you think I do. Such an important and unheralded position.

 

 

For conversations sake, I would probably put most of my Top 10 QB list ahead of Johnson... Rodgers, Brady, Manning, , Brees, Rivers, Ben, etc etc. They are all great QBs in their own right and even the ones lower on the list still have more of an impact. When you start getting into the later teens though, like where Matt Ryan probably is, then you can really start debating the overall positive influence compared to the likes of CJ.

 

As for other positions, I would have to actually sit down and take time to put together lists and weight out what I feel their role is on the team compared to others positions to give you a fair and accurate example outside of QBs.

 

What it boils down to really is that WR just isn't that impactful or important of a position. Calvin Johnson is GREAT, surely... But without a doubt there are players worse at their position around the league who are better and definitely more impactful.

 

I wouldn't take a WR high in a "most valuable" draft, fantasy draft, or real NFL draft. The position simply is overrated as a whole, not just CJ.

 

Right here. You're describing making a list based on value. Which is different than a list based on who is best at their craft. If that's the list you want to make, then awesome. I'm just pointing out what kind of list it is.

 

Unless you think that Ben Roethlisberger and Philip Rivers are better at their jobs than Calvin Johnson is. In which case, I am just not really going to put any stock in your opinions. Which isn't the end of the world.

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Which is fine, of course. Lol. I understand and definitely agree that it might seem unfair to the likes of non-QBs and the like, but is it really fair to put less impactful players higher on the list simply because they aren't QBs? I would say no.

but nobody is giving a boost to a guy like Calvin Johnson simply because he's not a QB, they're just not giving a guy like Phillip Rivers a boost simply because he is a QB

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Right here. You're describing making a list based on value. Which is different than a list based on who is best at their craft. If that's the list you want to make, then awesome. I'm just pointing out what kind of list it is.

 

Unless you think that Ben Roethlisberger and Philip Rivers are better at their jobs than Calvin Johnson is. In which case, I am just not really going to put any stock in your opinions. Which isn't the end of the world.

I would take Ben over CJ 100 / 100 times. Rivers wouldn't be as dominant of a victory, because I feel he is more inconsistent -- but yes I value him more. And nope, not putting stock into my opinions is definitely not the end of the world. Far from it actually... And feel free to do (or not do? lol) so. Just do (or not do) so with actual opinions and actual substance and we will never have a problem. Lol. Pretty simple. :yep:

 

but nobody is giving a boost to a guy like Calvin Johnson simply because he's not a QB, they're just not giving a guy like Phillip Rivers a boost simply because he is a QB

I don't like viewing it like that exactly... I mean, at the absolute base of your point, I guess you are correct. I wouldn't go through and say.. Okay, JUST because this guy is a QB, he is moving up my list. You have to actually look at what they do, how they do it, and again, what impact or level of talent they bring to the table. A 5th, 6th, 7th QB on my list.. Ya, I think they bring more to the table, not necessarily just because they are QBs but because , but because of what they do.

 

Yes, I realize this is basically splitting hairs.. And why I said you are probably technically correct.

 

Also, yes.. Nobody is boosting Calvin Johnson because he is a non-QB. If that's where part of his value comes from, I think that strengthens my point. It'd be like giving those guys a handicap, and I really don't believe in doing that. Not saying it's wrong if you do... But I would rather just look at the league and the players and just report what I see... What I won't do is artificially boost players not because of what they do on the field, but because of what position they DON'T play. That's what I feel is unfair.

 

Again.. Yes, you are right.. There would be a lot of QBs high on the list, especially higher, no doubt. But I feel that's the league landscape today. Why deny that or hand out handicaps to non-QBs? Eh, I don't really see the point. A ducks a duck, let's call it a duck.

 

As we become more and more pass happy, I feel the value of wide receivers will continue to drop. A WRs value has never been greater than the days of which the passing attack really began to take fire

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I would take Ben over CJ 100 / 100 times. Rivers wouldn't be as dominant of a victory, because I feel he is more inconsistent -- but yes I value him more. And nope, not putting stock into my opinions is definitely not the end of the world. Far from it actually... And feel free to do (or not do? lol) so. Just do (or not do) so with actual opinions and actual substance and we will never have a problem. Lol. Pretty simple. :yep:

 

Yes many would take Ben over CJ, because QB's are more valuable to football teams than wide receivers. Like you said here.

 

But that's not the same as saying that Roethlisberger and Rivers are better at their positions than Johnson is. Which, I notice, you didn't comment on.

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Ben and Phil are better players than Calvin Johnson.

Again, I don't want to sit here and sound like I am just trashing CJ. He's a great player, and for a division rival... I love watching him play the game. Supremely talented, but he just so happens to play a pretty invaluable position, IMO. Great / Elite / Whatever WRs don't win you games. They don't win you championships.

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Ben and Phil are better players than Calvin Johnson.

 

Again, I don't want to sit here and sound like I am just trashing CJ. He's a great player, and for a division rival... I love watching him play the game. Supremely talented, but he just so happens to play a pretty invaluable position, IMO. Great / Elite / Whatever WRs don't win you games. They don't win you championships.

 

Ok, so to be clear-- you're saying that Ben and Phil are better at QB than Calvin is at WR?

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I don't like viewing it like that exactly... I mean, at the absolute base of your point, I guess you are correct. I wouldn't go through and say.. Okay, JUST because this guy is a QB, he is moving up my list. You have to actually look at what they do, how they do it, and again, what impact or level of talent they bring to the table. A 5th, 6th, 7th QB on my list.. Ya, I think they bring more to the table, not necessarily just because they are QBs but because , but because of what they do.

 

Yes, I realize this is basically splitting hairs.. And why I said you are probably technically correct.

 

Also, yes.. Nobody is boosting Calvin Johnson because he is a non-QB. If that's where part of his value comes from, I think that strengthens my point. It'd be like giving those guys a handicap, and I really don't believe in doing that. Not saying it's wrong if you do... But I would rather just look at the league and the players and just report what I see... What I won't do is artificially boost players not because of what they do on the field, but because of what position they DON'T play. That's what I feel is unfair.

 

Again.. Yes, you are right.. There would be a lot of QBs high on the list, especially higher, no doubt. But I feel that's the league landscape today. Why deny that or hand out handicaps to non-QBs? Eh, I don't really see the point. A ducks a duck, let's call it a duck.

 

As we become more and more pass happy, I feel the value of wide receivers will continue to drop. A WRs value has never been greater than the days of which the passing attack really began to take fire

you may not intentionally be giving QBs a boost based on their position, but when you rank them higher "because of what they do" you're subconsciously giving them a boost because they're a QB, and you're certainly not alone, there's a reason most top 100 player lists have about a dozen QBs, though I would argue that a wide receiver can have a huge impact on individual games, I guarantee you defenses game planning for the Lions spend a lot more time talking about Calvin Johnson than they spend talking about Matt Stafford

 

and since you brought it up, I couldn't resist:

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Calvin Johnson has revolutionized the WR position and has set a new bar for kids coming out of college. He is the best, it isn't close, and cool that's settled.

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Ok, so to be clear-- you're saying that Ben and Phil are better at QB than Calvin is at WR?

That's getting into something a little different, I think. Strictly looking with position only..Ben and Phil have better QBs ahead of them, while Calvin really only has one person at his own position that I would consider. Not weighing in value.. Calvin is my #2 WR which technically, just from a numerical / looking at one position standpoint.. Calvin is higher.

 

But when putting together mega lists you can't form them like that. Just because you are the #1 or #2 WR doesn't necessarily put you over the #3 QB or #5 Safety or whatever it might be. If that's how we did things, the #1s at every position would be laid out in order, then the #2s at every position, etc etc.

 

What puts DT #7 ahead of K #2 or CB #5? I mean, even on the lists put up by NFL.com... How do you determine Calvin is above guys like Ben, Aaron Rodgers, Rivers, JJ Watt, etc etc etc. It's his perceived value or impact. It just so happens I don't value that as much as the NFL players putting this list together or most of you here.. Which, is of course fine.

 

Calvin is a better WR than Ben is a QB because the QB field is stronger and more valuable... There are guys above him. The WR crop is overall weaker, and less valuable, so Calvin's supreme talent ranks right at the top.

 

As I said to Oochy, we are splitting hairs here for sure and I understand the difficulty in differentiating... It's a balancing act.

 

you may not intentionally be giving QBs a boost based on their position, but when you rank them higher "because of what they do" you're subconsciously giving them a boost because they're a QB, and you're certainly not alone, there's a reason most top 100 player lists have about a dozen QBs, though I would argue that a wide receiver can have a huge impact on individual games, I guarantee you defenses game planning for the Lions spend a lot more time talking about Calvin Johnson than they spend talking about Matt Stafford

 

and since you brought it up, I couldn't resist:

Yup, that's basically what I said.

 

And I hate Matthew Stafford, so... wouldn't exactly disagree with you on your other point. There really isn't much to gameplan for... Line up and he will usually telegraph what he is doing (HINT: he is aimlessly and inaccurately over or underthrowing Calvin Johnson)

 

Calvin Johnson has revolutionized the WR position and has set a new bar for kids coming out of college. He is the best, it isn't close, and cool that's settled.

Not really.

Edited by Favre4Ever

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I wasn't talking about how they rank among their positions at all. That's sort of irrelevant because at any give time a position could be especially good or especially bad.

 

I'm asking if, in your opinion, Calvin is better at his job than Ben.

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Ben is a better and more valuable player. Calvin is higher on the WR list than Ben is on the QB list.

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Not really.

 

 

 

Yes really. One year goes by since his near 2,000 receiving season and he's no longer the undisputed #1 guy? Beating triple coverage on a consistent basis while being the only target on his team isn't insane? He makes going up in triple coverage look like cake. He's 3-4 more years of dominance away from hustling Jerry Rice for that #1 all-time spot...

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The fact he had a 2,000 yard season or might eventually be the greatest WR of all time doesn't add anything to the flasehood that he revolutionized the position.

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Calvin Johnson is a better WR(IMO, he's the greatest WR to ever play the game..Rice is ahead of him on lists due to tenure only) than Roethlisberger is a QB, but I'm not going to take CJ over Ben if I'm starting a team(assuming I'm given Ben at a decent age..if he starts to decline in his age, which is a possibility I guess given his physical abilities have always been a big part of his game, then you take CJ, I think).

 

I actually agree with Favre(shocker) in that when looking at making"best in the NFL list", you do have to have to factor in value. Ben is going to win you more games than Calvin, even if he can put up 300 yard receiving days, and ultimately, that's what matters.

 

Ranking players based off of just simply how good they are at their position should be kept solely to position rankings, as value should factor in higher than overall skill in a top 100 type list, because the end goal is taking a player who is going to give you the best chance to win.

 

That said, I dunno if I'd go as extreme as Favre in regards to which QBs he'd take over Calvin, but oh well.

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RE: "Value"

 

I always look at it from 'drop off' or 'position scarcity'.

 

What's the drop off from the #1 to #x QB. Let's say... Peyton Manning to... Big Ben? Significant, but maybe 33% at most (overall, accounting for all stats, wins, abilities, etc.)?

 

What's the drop off from the #1 safety to #x. Let's say... Earl Thomas to Matt Elam? That feels steeper.

 

Statistically, using AV, the Peyton/Elam vs. Ben/Thomas combo would yield 26 vs. 24 AV, a slight win for the Peyton/Elam crew by 8.3%. It's not that big of a difference (and that's just using AV, which might not be the best indicator of 'true talent').

 

It's the same thing in baseball. There are certain positions (C, SS and maybe 2B) where the talent gap is so significant that it's almost smarter to have Troy Tulowitzki and Francisco Liriano than Felix Hernandez and Jordy Mercer. If nothing else the 'value' derived by each pair is about equal.

 

I guess what I'm saying is that in a 'full NFL redraft' I go the 'Bill Cowher route' and skimp on QB, loading up on 'undervalued/underappreciated positions' like FS/SS, DT/NT, LT, C and/or MLB first ('build up the middle') and roll with a 'game manager' QB (Alex Smith/Andy Dalton type).

 

It's proven to yield winners in the past.

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RE: "Value"

 

I always look at it from 'drop off' or 'position scarcity'.

 

What's the drop off from the #1 to #x QB. Let's say... Peyton Manning to... Big Ben? Significant, but maybe 33% at most (overall, accounting for all stats, wins, abilities, etc.)?

 

What's the drop off from the #1 safety to #x. Let's say... Earl Thomas to Matt Elam? That feels steeper.

 

Statistically, using AV, the Peyton/Elam vs. Ben/Thomas combo would yield 26 vs. 24 AV, a slight win for the Peyton/Elam crew by 8.3%. It's not that big of a difference (and that's just using AV, which might not be the best indicator of 'true talent').

 

It's the same thing in baseball. There are certain positions (C, SS and maybe 2B) where the talent gap is so significant that it's almost smarter to have Troy Tulowitzki and Francisco Liriano than Felix Hernandez and Jordy Mercer. If nothing else the 'value' derived by each pair is about equal.

 

I guess what I'm saying is that in a 'full NFL redraft' I go the 'Bill Cowher route' and skimp on QB, loading up on 'undervalued/underappreciated positions' like FS/SS, DT/NT, LT, C and/or MLB first ('build up the middle') and roll with a 'game manager' QB (Alex Smith/Andy Dalton type).

 

It's proven to yield winners in the past.

 

The problem with the Bill Cowher route is it showed he couldn't win a superbowl until he had a competent QB to go along with an incredible D.

 

2000 Ravens is the only real "recent" example of a team winning it all without a good(whether good meaning having a good career, or just being good for that post season run, ala Joe Flacco), and even then Dilfer was at least average-ish that year to go along with arguably the greatest D to ever play the game.

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What are you arguing is best value, not best player.

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What are you arguing is best value, not best player.

 

I'm combining value with skill. Ben is a borderline elite QB who brings a ton of value to his team in regards to how much he increases their chance to win. Calvin Johnson is arguably the greatest WR to ever play the game but he doesn't increase the chance to win games nearly as much as Ben.

 

That makes Ben, IMO, the better overall player.

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No. Just no. That makes Ben overall better VALUE to whatever team has him, not the better skilled player. You are simply confusing the two terms.

 

I cannot believe this is actually a discussion. You are completely misusing the word.

Edited by Thanatos19
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No. Just no. That makes Ben overall better VALUE to whatever team has him, not the better skilled player. You are simply confusing the two terms.

 

I cannot believe this is actually a discussion. You are completely misusing the word.

 

You can judge your players off of skill alone if you want to, I never said you couldn't. I said I feel value should factor in to the decision, and thus it does for me. Thus, to ME, Ben is the OVERALL better player. There's no word I'm misusing, given OVERALL to me factors in value. The point of football is winning. Ben gives me a better chance to win than CJ. Given the skill gap between the two, although it's there, is not astronomical, that makes Ben higher in MY opinion.

 

I dunno what issue you're having with grasping that concept that I want the person who is extremely skilled himself and also gives me a better chance to win.

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Ofc if you are starting a team, you take Ben. It doesn't make Ben better than Megatron. The QB position is simply that important. Value vs skill.

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I think what we're learning here is that 'better' is an incredibly subjective term

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Indeed. Both value lists and rankings based simply on the author's opinion of who is better or worse are interesting. I'm just pointing out that there is a difference.

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I think Matthew Stafford, Micheal Sam, and Richard Sherman are overated.


And every FA the Redskins will or have ever signed. Except Pierre Garcon he helped me in FF, and helped the skins in real life too I guess

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