Midseason MVP Candidates?

[DBR96A 87]

I think ya'll are mistaking my "Brady is better than Roethlisberger" argument for a "Roethlisberger sucks" argument, and that may be my fault for lack of clarity, the point I'm trying to get at is that Brady's recent resurgence has been in line with his past production, so it's easier to project it to continue, conversely Roethlisberger's recent statistical explosion is an outlier when you look at his career so it's harder to project out, there are certainly a lot of variables in play, Roethlisberger is clearly playing with the best oline he's ever had (you're welcome for Munchak) and I'll take ya'll's word on the offensive system changes since you clearly are more in touch with what's going on in Pittsburgh, but regardless of what you're looking at projections are extremely difficult

 

as I said in my last post, if Roethlisberger continues anywhere near his production over the last two weeks then he'll definitely a frontrunner for MVP, and if Brady continues on his current trajectory he'll definitely be a frontrunner for MVP, and if you asked me right now which is more likely I'd say Brady based largely on past performance

 

That's a fair assessment. The only thing I'd disagree with is his two six-TD games being outliers, because he had two four-TD games last season despite the offense around him being even younger and more inexperienced than it is now. The second half of last season offered some glimpses of the offense's capabilities once everything came together.

 

Some of last season's inconsistency carried over into the beginning of this season, but it's worth noting that the Steelers have scored at least 30 points in five of their nine games this season, which compares favorably to most other teams with viable franchise QBs:

 

 

5 of 8 - Philadelphia

5 of 9 - Indianapolis

5 of 9 - New England

5 of 9 - Pittsburgh

4 of 8 - Denver

4 of 8 - Green Bay

4 of 9 - Dallas

4 of 9 - San Diego

3 of 8 - Cincinnati

3 of 8 - Kansas City

3 of 8 - Miami

3 of 8 - New Orleans

3 of 8 - New York Giants

2 of 8 - Atlanta

2 of 8 - Seattle

2 of 9 - Baltimore

2 of 9 - Carolina

1 of 8 - Arizona

1 of 8 - Detroit

1 of 8 - San Francisco

0 of 8 - Chicago

 

(Teams with rates identical to the Steelers are shaded in BLUE. Teams with former Steelers offensive coordinators as head coaches are shaded in RED.)

[Thanatos 2,847]

 

 

I have no idea why you even typed the first part of your post. I said nothing about Ben having(or not having) the worst o-line in the league in his career. I simply said that Manning and Brady have dealt with awful offensive lines in their career and have adjusted accordingly, and they would do so in Pittsburgh as well. Brady had arguably the worst offensive line to begin this season and adjusted accordingly.

 

And I dunno of any QBs outside of Brady and Manning that are offensive coordinators on the field. Not sure even Rodgers or Brees can say that. Running the 2 minute drill/no huddle is a bit different. While it still requires the QB calling the plays, it's something you do over and over in practice, with the assistance of coaches. Brady and Manning have the ability to say fuck you to the offensive coordinator's play call and do whatever they want. They've earned that right, I guess.

 

Could Ben be successful at that too? I dunno, maybe. Would have to see him try it first, but I dunno if Haley or Tomlin think highly enough of him to do that. Brady and Manning aren't handcuffed to their OCs cause they earned the right to be their own OCs on the field when they want to be through the work they put in on the practice field, film room and results they produce on a yearly basis on the field. There's arguments that can be made that they're the two greatest QBs to ever play the game. I personally have Brady as the 2nd greatest ever and Manning somewhere around the 5-8 range at the moment.

 

No one, outside of you and a couple other Steeler fans are going to make the argument that Ben is on that level. And you believing that is your right, I guess, just don't think you'll have much luck getting any non-Steeler fan to believe that. I'm maybe the biggest Big Ben fan outside of the Steelers fanbase, as I'm sure several here can back up by how often I speak highly of him, but I'm not going to exaggerate his accomplishments to the point of putting him on an arguably greatest QB of all time level.

 

Anyway, gotta get back to work. I'll respond to any other posts later if need be.

 

Naw, see, the difference is the rest of us dont put Manning that highly. Nor Brady, for that matter. I'm not a Steelers fan either, but Big Ben is the most underrated QB in the NFL by the general public.

 

Someone was talking to me the other day and said that all Cam would "ever amount to is Big Ben." And I was like, uh, okay, was that supposed to be an insult?

 

Ben is definitely in this conversation.

[.AirMcNair. 1,232]

 

Naw, see, the difference is the rest of us dont put Manning that highly. Nor Brady, for that matter.

 

 

[Thanatos 2,847]

I don't believe Brady is the second best quarterback of all time, and I don't really see that as a shocking thing lol.

[DBR96A 87]

 

 

I have no idea why you even typed the first part of your post. I said nothing about Ben having(or not having) the worst o-line in the league in his career. I simply said that Manning and Brady have dealt with awful offensive lines in their career and have adjusted accordingly, and they would do so in Pittsburgh as well. Brady had arguably the worst offensive line to begin this season and adjusted accordingly.

 

There's really only so much adjusting a QB can do if he has Chris Kemoeatu or Doug Legursky starting at any position on the offensive line, or a system of offense with few checkdowns. Bruce Arians is a poor man's Mike Martz. Kurt Warner could sling it, but Martz got him killed nonetheless.

 

I've never been very critical of Todd Haley because I understood that the entire offense around Roethlisberger just needed to be blown up and rebuilt first. The only pieces left on offense from the Arians era are Ramon Foster, Maurkice Pouncey and Antonio Brown. (Roethlisberger and Heath Miller are from the Ken Whisenhunt era.) Every other player is Haley's, including all the backups.

 

Haley has been uneven in his play-calling, but Arians averaged three good game plans per season, which Haley has already exceeded this season. And it's becoming glaringly obvious that Haley is a much better talent evaluator than Arians ever was.

[oochymp 2,393]

with two weeks to go it feels like a good time to bump this thread

 

Watt has continued his excellent season, but as much as the fact that he plays defense gets in his way I think the bigger obstacle is the likelihood that Houston misses the playoffs, with two games left they're tenth in the AFC and two games out of a WC spot, so even if they win they can be eliminated this week if Baltimore and Pittsburgh both win

 

I have to admit I was wrong on the Brady/Roethlisberger question, mainly in regards to Roethlisberger, while both are looking at very good seasons Roethlisberger has continued his pace, already hitting a career high in yards, he's near his career high in QB rating, and at only three behind his career high in TDs with two weeks left it's hard to see him not getting that, though I will point out that in the five weeks since Ben threw 12 TDs in two games he's only thrown 7, Brady is on pace to maintain about his average stats

 

front runners right now probably have to be Luck and Big Ben

Edited December 18, 2014 by oochymp

[ATL_Predator+ 1,196]

Numbers might not show it...and by God I hate Dallas more than most people on this site...

 

But what about Demarco Murray?

 

Without Demarco Murray. The Cowboys are not where they are at today...maybe not even at .500. The plan to let Murray run the rock all season has done great things for Dallas.

 

Not a stretch with his play and importance to the Cowboys success this year...

 

Would also like to throw Gronkowski out there too. Pats have been undefeated since his return, and a healthy Gronk is about as destructive as they come.

 

Food for thought.

[RazorStar 4,025]

Aaron Rodgers.

[Thanatos 2,847]

with two weeks to go it feels like a good time to bump this thread

 

Watt has continued his excellent season, but as much as the fact that he plays defense gets in his way I think the bigger obstacle is the likelihood that Houston misses the playoffs, with two games left they're tenth in the AFC and two games out of a WC spot, so even if they win they can be eliminated this week if Baltimore and Pittsburgh both win

 

I have to admit I was wrong on the Brady/Roethlisberger question, mainly in regards to Roethlisberger, while both are looking at very good seasons Roethlisberger has continued his pace, already hitting a career high in yards, he's near his career high in QB rating, and at only three behind his career high in TDs with two weeks left it's hard to see him not getting that, though I will point out that in the five weeks since Ben threw 12 TDs in two games he's only thrown 7, Brady is on pace to maintain about his average stats

 

front runners right now probably have to be Luck and Big Ben

 

Baltimore can't win if the Texans do, because they are playing each other.

 

Front runners without mentioning A-Rod? I get that the Bills shut him down, but he's still a frontrunner in this conversation.

[oochymp 2,393]

Baltimore can't win if the Texans do, because they are playing each other.

 

Front runners without mentioning A-Rod? I get that the Bills shut him down, but he's still a frontrunner in this conversation.

fair enough, I should have looked at the slate of games before posting that, my general point, that the odds are slim that Houston makes the playoffs

[Wattafan 28]

With Tony Romo and Russell Wilson also coming into the MVP conversation, JJ Watt's chances of taking it have gone up.

Add to that the fact that Rogers has not been, well Rogers of late while JJ actually seems to be getting better and that whole D feeds off him, puts has his nose in front. If he does not win it, the mind boggles at what a defensive player has to do to do so.

If you didn't watch the Texans Ravens game, I suggest you do yourself a favour and enjoy possibly the greatest ever to play his position just to marvel.

He may not have had the gaudy numbers like he did some of his other games, but his performance was stellar.

One play that will stick in my mind was when he had been completely gassed on one knee late in the game but would not go off the field, lined up on the next play and played well, like Watt and produced a great TFL to send the Ravens O off the field.

My admiration for him went up another notch.

Edited December 23, 2014 by Wattafan

[oochymp 2,393]

I still think the Texans have to make the playoffs for Watt to get serious consideration, I take issue with calling a player on a non-playoff team the most valuable player in the league

[Maverick 791]

I still think the Texans have to make the playoffs for Watt to get serious consideration, I take issue with calling a player on a non-playoff team the most valuable player in the league

This. Not a snowball's chance in hell Watt is even considered unless the Texans make the playoffs.

[RazorStar 4,025]

The Texans can't make the playoffs so there is no hope for Defensive MVP. He deserves it to be certain, but the Browns can't win another football game this year.

[FartWaffles 1,857]

The problem with the award is the word Valuable. Obviously the quarterback is the most valuable position in football. If the award was called the Most Oustanding Player, no one would question giving the award to Watt.

 

As for the playoffs argument, you can have the best football player on a team and not make the playoffs. I just find it funny that Watt can't win MVP, because his team had Fitzpatrick, Mallett, Savage, and Keenum all play at quarterback. So everything he has done this year just gets pushed away.

[oochymp 2,393]

you're right, the argument hinges on the 'valuable' aspect of the award, because the Texans could miss the playoffs without Watt and they're missing the playoffs with Watt, so how 'valuable' is he really?

 

and I realize that by this reasoning a player who makes his team a 10-6 team rather than an 8-8 team is more valuable than a player who makes his team an 8-8 team rather than a 2-14 team, but IMO the difference between a 10-6 team and an 8-8 team is much bigger than the difference between an 8-8 team and a 2-14 team

 

also, I don't really agree with the notion that Watt's accomplishments just get pushed away, he will be the DPOTY by a huge margin

Edited December 23, 2014 by oochymp

[FartWaffles 1,857]

So just answer this with yes or no only. I don't want to hear any bs semantics. If Fitzpatrick doesn't shit the bed against the Giants and Steelers, and the Texans had made the playoffs would you say Watt is worthy of the MVP award?

[Cherry 1,302]

So just answer this with yes or no only. I don't want to hear any bs semantics. If Fitzpatrick doesn't shit the bed against the Giants and Steelers, and the Texans had made the playoffs would you say Watt is worthy of the MVP award?

-nevermind misread-

Edited December 23, 2014 by Chernobyl426

[oochymp 2,393]

So just answer this with yes or no only. I don't want to hear any bs semantics. If Fitzpatrick doesn't shit the bed against the Giants and Steelers, and the Texans had made the playoffs would you say Watt is worthy of the MVP award?

Yes, because then you're talking about a guy who brought a mediocre team into the playoffs, rather than a guy who makes a bad team mediocre

[FartWaffles 1,857]

Yes, because then you're talking about a guy who brought a mediocre team into the playoffs, rather than a guy who makes a bad team mediocre

Well I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on this one. The MVP is an individual award, so I just don't see how a teammate holding the team back should affect the player in question. That's all I had left in me to say on this subject.

 

/rant

[oochymp 2,393]

Let's take it the other way, if Watt was having the season he's having on a 2-14 team headed for the first pick, would you still argue he deserves MVP?

[FartWaffles 1,857]

Let's take it the other way, if Watt was having the season he's having on a 2-14 team headed for the first pick, would you still argue he deserves MVP?

Yes, because I don't think the team performance should hinder the individual player if he's having an MVP caliber year. I'd say the same if next year Mettenberger threw for 60 TDs and 6,000 yards, but the Titans had a historically bad defense and always gave up at least one more point than Mett would put up.

 

You put Watt on the Packers with the year he is having and Aaron Rodgers wouldn't even be the MVP of his own team.

[.AirMcNair. 1,232]

The problem with the logic that a player can be MVP on a bad team is that Most Valuable Player would mean player most valuable to his team's success, and there's no real success in going 2-14 or whatever. You might could make that argument under a scenario like you listed, where a player leads his unit to being the best in football but the team still loses games because of the other side, but going off of last year where the Texans were 2-14, and their defense was 7th in yards allowed and tied for 24th in points allowed per game, that argument doesn't really work for last year.

 

It's why there exists OPOY/DPOY. Those go to the BEST offensive and defensive player. Not the one most valuable to a team's success. Tom Brady was the MVP last year, in my opinion, but Peyton Manning was far and away the best offensive player.

[Wattafan 28]

Yes, because I don't think the team performance should hinder the individual player if he's having an MVP caliber year. I'd say the same if next year Mettenberger threw for 60 TDs and 6,000 yards, but the Titans had a historically bad defense and always gave up at least one more point than Mett would put up.

 

You put Watt on the Packers with the year he is having and Aaron Rodgers wouldn't even be the MVP of his own team.

^^^This^^^

I'll repeat it - if a defensive player cannot win MVP with the season Watt has had, then I can't ever see a defensive player ever winning it as there will always be a standout QB.

They may as well just call it Most Valuable Offensive Player and be done with it.

Hope you don't mind me borrowing that Fart.

Edited December 24, 2014 by Wattafan

[Wattafan 28]

you're right, the argument hinges on the 'valuable' aspect of the award, because the Texans could miss the playoffs without Watt and they're missing the playoffs with Watt, so how 'valuable' is he really?

 

and I realize that by this reasoning a player who makes his team a 10-6 team rather than an 8-8 team is more valuable than a player who makes his team an 8-8 team rather than a 2-14 team, but IMO the difference between a 10-6 team and an 8-8 team is much bigger than the difference between an 8-8 team and a 2-14 team

 

also, I don't really agree with the notion that Watt's accomplishments just get pushed away, he will be the DPOTY by a huge margin

But like you said elsewhere, his team is not headed to the playoffs...