Patriots Accused Of Deflating Footballs

[Favre4Ever+ 4,476]

Why didn't Dansby bring this up immediately after the game? Probably because it was a 40-point curb stomping? lol.

 

Waiting on some player from the 2009 Titans squad to suddenly make an accusation from the 59-0 snow game.

And that's part of the whole thing, IMO. These games that we know about, you are blowing teams out. Why does any shady activity need to happen at all? lol. Like, I just don't get the point of doing it unless they just use the shitshow teams to perfect their espionage acts against the better ones.

 

What's the point of a "gotcha" though? The Pats have already been made examples of in the past, and it serves no purpose to the league to say the reigning SB champs cheated.

 

Unless this is a league-wide issue, which I doubt.

 

Precisely.. The Pats are world champions. What is the league getting out proving they are cheats? Uhhh, nothing, really.

[Thanatos 2,847]

What's the point of a "gotcha" though? The Pats have already been made examples of in the past, and it serves no purpose to the league to say the reigning SB champs cheated.

 

Unless this is a league-wide issue, which I doubt.

 

Sure the first two sentences I'm not sure I agree with. Its the rest of the comment that is spot on.

 

Another problem has arisen. Ted Wells lied in the report and/or is simply incompetent:

 

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2015/05/14/wells-contradicts-his-own-report-regarding-mcnally-texts/

 

Contradicted his own report. Did he have the relevant texts regarding the 2014 season or did he not? He says two different things. Not to mention it is gross incompetency to not go through all those prior to interviewing McNally. Sure it would have taken awhile, but that's what you were hired for.

 

But yeah, this is all black and white, guise. Pats cheated terribly, the League wasn't setting up a sting, Goodell can do no wrong here.

 

But yeah, all I do in debates is just say "You're wrong."

 

@Mav, @Zack: Regarding the fumbling data, according to what I'm looking at, your data is incorrect, and/or based on old information. Over the past three years, 2012-2014, the Ravens and Saints have fumbled less often than the Patriots. Matt Ryan and Andy Dalton have fumbled less than Tom Brady. Not to mention that two of the variables involved in measuring fumble rates is sacks and scrambles. Tom Brady obviously very rarely scrambles, and the Patriots measured third least over the past three years in sacks taken, which would also reduce their fumbles.

 

Eliminating dome teams is dumb. Weather has a far lower impact on fumble totals than stuff like backup QBs playing. For example, the Saints fumbled three less times in the dome than on the road, (17 to 20) over the past three years. Its no coincidence that the Saints, Falcons, Ravens, Patriots, and Bengals have some of the lowest fumble rates the past few years: they nearly always play the same guy behind center.

Edited May 16, 2015 by Thanatos19

[Wattafan 28]

The penatly was too harsh.

All the league succeeded in doing was getting the Patriots backs up.

We could now see a long protracted battle that could even affect the regular season and therefor detrimental to the game.

A four game suspension would have been enough and would not have pissed them off to the point where they go through litigation.

[Vin+ 3,121]

 

The Associated Press reports the NFL plans to change guidelines regarding the way footballs are handled before a game.

The NFL will discuss the guidelines at the owners' meetings in San Francisco next week, though the change would not require a vote from the owners. Tom Brady was suspended for four games and the Patriots were fined $1 million and lost two draft picks for allegedly tampering with footballs before the AFC Championship game.

Source: The Associated Press

[Glanvilles Grits 142]

The penatly was too harsh.

All the league succeeded in doing was getting the Patriots backs up.

We could now see a long protracted battle that could even affect the regular season and therefor detrimental to the game.

A four game suspension would have been enough and would not have pissed them off to the point where they go through litigation.

 

See, I don't think the penalty was that far on the too harsh side... If, that is, they had substantial and proof without a doubt that he was involved in telling the ball boys he wanted the balls deflated below the legal psi.

 

That's the thing. They don't. I understand this is a sport league and not a court of law, but do you think someone could be convicted in a real court with the type of burden of proof that the NFL currently holds over Tom Brady? In terms of having nothing saying he did it and nothing saying he didn't, this is as 50/50 as it gets in my opinion. There's nothing proving either side right. Which is why there should be no suspension here.

 

 

Further, let's discuss Goodell sitting over and judging this appeal process. How is this right? It's not. I fully agree with the NFL Players Association on this one. A man who is involved in the case as a material witness or involved in the case as the man who gave the original punishment can't preside over an appeal. If that's the case, there is basically no way that Tom Brady and the Patriots can even come close to winning this appeal. It's just not right. Get an outside source, like we've seen on numerous other accounts with the NFL and their appeals process, to rule this situation.

Right now, Roger Goodell is trying to strong arm the NFLPA into acting as the "bad guy" for this case. I fully believe this is just an attempt for Goodell and his close personnel to regain their public figure.

[oochymp 2,393]

I reiterate

just for some background, the "more probable than not" standard is basically the preponderance of the evidence standard, which is the rule in most civil cases

[Thanatos 2,847]

I'm not arguing that, oochymp. There is no evidence. There's nothing at all except speculation.

[AL_Royalty 489]

Here's the thing: if Brady were told tomorrow that he was done, never to play football again, he would be rich for the rest of his days. That equipment dude actually NEEDS his check. Anyone who takes the stand that there's no proof Brady was involved is REALLY splitting hairs, and at this point it's just a ridiculous argument.

 

YoU're telling me that some equipment dude who actually has to work for a living for years to come is gonna risk his family's livelihood by just deflating footballs for no apparent reason? Pls stahp that nonsense. Please.

 

At the very least- the VERY least- Brady told this dude to do it. If the organization knew or not, they're still responsible for their team/company.

 

In every other industry, the responsibilities for the actions of an individual working for a company fall on the company itself. If one goes down, we all go down. Now everyone wants to run around playing lawyer, absolutely outraged by the egregious overstepping of Goodell with such an outlandish punishment for the poor little old Patriots?

 

I thought we were all tired of Goodell being soft on superstars, giving them preferential treatment and looking the other way for the beautiful people. He finally comes down hard on the darlings, and now THAT'S a problem? Cut. It. Out. Full house style.

Edited May 17, 2015 by AL_Royalty

[Sarge+ 3,436]

^ best post in this thread.

[Glanvilles Grits 142]

It's not that were tired of Goodell being soft imo. It's that were tired of Goodell going light on REAL crimes and hard on others with no proof at hand. The only outcome I see here in the next year or two is Goodell stepping down. Something needs to give

[Wattafan 28]

 

See, I don't think the penalty was that far on the too harsh side... If, that is, they had substantial and proof without a doubt that he was involved in telling the ball boys he wanted the balls deflated below the legal psi.

 

That's the thing. They don't. I understand this is a sport league and not a court of law, but do you think someone could be convicted in a real court with the type of burden of proof that the NFL currently holds over Tom Brady? In terms of having nothing saying he did it and nothing saying he didn't, this is as 50/50 as it gets in my opinion. There's nothing proving either side right. Which is why there should be no suspension here.

 

 

Further, let's discuss Goodell sitting over and judging this appeal process. How is this right? It's not. I fully agree with the NFL Players Association on this one. A man who is involved in the case as a material witness or involved in the case as the man who gave the original punishment can't preside over an appeal. If that's the case, there is basically no way that Tom Brady and the Patriots can even come close to winning this appeal. It's just not right. Get an outside source, like we've seen on numerous other accounts with the NFL and their appeals process, to rule this situation.

Right now, Roger Goodell is trying to strong arm the NFLPA into acting as the "bad guy" for this case. I fully believe this is just an attempt for Goodell and his close personnel to regain their public figure.

If it does go outside, then the defendants can raise all the inconsistencies in Goodell's decisions - iow, shift the limelight on him.

I can understand the league's wanting to lump past discretions into this one lump penalty, but there are other teams with multiple discretions as well.

Personally, I was shocked when I first heard the details of the penalty and I am not even a fan of the Pats.

If you want to get technical, then you give Brady a punishment ( the 4 game suspension) and the Pats organization a penalty ( either a million dollar fine or a first round draft pick). That would have been seen more just and right.

Imho.

[Vin+ 3,121]

Exponent, the research firm used, addresses this gauge issue in the report. I guess your opinion of it depends on what side of the argument you side with.

 

From page XIII of Appendix 1 in the report.

 

10. Overall, we determined that there was a small window in which it was theoretically possible to combine the factors listed in 7a through 7d above to achieve pressure levels that matched those recorded for both the Colts and the Patriots on Game Day, regardless of which gauge was used to measure the footballs pre-game, test them at halftime, or set them prior to our experiments. However, as described below, the precise combination of factors required for the Patriots halfime measurements to fall within the range predicted by the transient experiments while also matching the Colts halftime measurements to the predicted range required setting certain parameters -- particularly the timing of the halftime testing and the surface condition of the footballs -- at levels believed to be unrealistic and unlikely to have been present on Game Day. In particular:

 

a. If the Non-Logo Gauge was used pre-game, the Patriots average halftime measurement from Game Day is always lower than the pressures predicted by the transient curves. If one allows for the standard error associated with the Game Day measurements, the Patriots halftime measurements will overlap with the pressures predicted by the transient curves (with the Colts halftime measurements also matching the predicted range), but only in the outer range of the error band, and only if testing of the Patriots balls began immediately once the footballs arrived in the Officials Locker Room at halftime and took no more than 4 minutes. Based on information provided by Paul, Weiss, however, we understand that testing is likely to have begun no sooner than 2 minutes after the balls were returned to the locker room and is likely to have taken approximately 4 to 5 minutes.

b. If the Logo Gauge was used pre-game, the Patriots average halftime measurement will match the pressures predicted by the transient curves (with the Colts halftime measurements also matching the predicted range), but only if the testing of the Patriots balls began immediately once the footballs arrived in the Officials Locker Room at halftime and took no more than 4 minutes, and only if the majority of the Patriots game balls were wet. As noted, testing of the Patriots balls is likely to have taken approximately 4 to 5 minutes. Further, based on the statements made by Paul, Weiss (and subsequently conveyed to Exponent by Patriots ballboys and game officials, we understand that some of the Patriots game balls may have been damp when tested at halftime, but none were waterlogged.

Accordingly, within the range of game conditions and circumstances most likely to have occurred on Game Day (based on information provided by Paul, Weiss), including the timing of various events that are understood to have occurred in the Officials Locker Room during halftime, we have identified no combination of the environmental factors listed above that could reconcile the Patriots halftime

 

[BucD+ 648]

Here's the thing: if Brady were told tomorrow that he was done, never to play football again, he would be rich for the rest of his days. That equipment dude actually NEEDS his check. Anyone who takes the stand that there's no proof Brady was involved is REALLY splitting hairs, and at this point it's just a ridiculous argument.

YoU're telling me that some equipment dude who actually has to work for a living for years to come is gonna risk his family's livelihood by just deflating footballs for no apparent reason? Pls stahp that nonsense. Please.

At the very least- the VERY least- Brady told this dude to do it. If the organization knew or not, they're still responsible for their team/company.

In every other industry, the responsibilities for the actions of an individual working for a company fall on the company itself. If one goes down, we all go down. Now everyone wants to run around playing lawyer, absolutely outraged by the egregious overstepping of Goodell with such an outlandish punishment for the poor little old Patriots?

I thought we were all tired of Goodell being soft on superstars, giving them preferential treatment and looking the other way for the beautiful people. He finally comes down hard on the darlings, and now THAT'S a problem? Cut. It. Out. Full house style.

Killed it.

[Thanatos 2,847]

Here's the thing: if Brady were told tomorrow that he was done, never to play football again, he would be rich for the rest of his days. That equipment dude actually NEEDS his check. Anyone who takes the stand that there's no proof Brady was involved is REALLY splitting hairs, and at this point it's just a ridiculous argument.

 

YoU're telling me that some equipment dude who actually has to work for a living for years to come is gonna risk his family's livelihood by just deflating footballs for no apparent reason? Pls stahp that nonsense. Please.

 

At the very least- the VERY least- Brady told this dude to do it. If the organization knew or not, they're still responsible for their team/company.

 

In every other industry, the responsibilities for the actions of an individual working for a company fall on the company itself. If one goes down, we all go down. Now everyone wants to run around playing lawyer, absolutely outraged by the egregious overstepping of Goodell with such an outlandish punishment for the poor little old Patriots?

 

I thought we were all tired of Goodell being soft on superstars, giving them preferential treatment and looking the other way for the beautiful people. He finally comes down hard on the darlings, and now THAT'S a problem? Cut. It. Out. Full house style.

 

Your entire post is a strawman argument.

 

They aren't claiming the balls were deflated without Brady's knowledge by those guys. They weren't deflated at all is the Patriots argument, given that the gauge used by Walt Anderson, according to his best recollection, would result in 10 of the 12 balls falling within what you would expect given the pressure variances resulting from the temperature. The Wells Report assumes Anderson was incorrect on this point and that he used the other gauge. The Patriots are therefore claiming *no one* deflated the balls, and that its simply Mother Nature that is responsible.

 

Exponent, the research firm used, addresses this gauge issue in the report. I guess your opinion of it depends on what side of the argument you side with.

 

From page XIII of Appendix 1 in the report.

 

 

So they needed to be measured within 4 minutes, and Exponent is like, well based on what someone told us, it took 4-5. Kinda cutting it a bit close there, don't you think? If they're off by less than a minute in their guesstimation, the Patriots balls would fall within the ranges predicted.

 

Also, do they say anything about having no starting point? No one wrote down what the PSI was at the beginning of the game, to my knowledge, they simply rely on what Walt Anderson remembers them to be, (and then ignores that memory when choosing which gauge he used, but I digress). Without a starting point, this entire thing doesn't really work.

 

Exponent is nothing but a schill that provides whatever answers whoever hired them want to find. As shown by their report that second-hand smoke doesn't cause cancer, that toxic waste in the Amazon doesn't contribute to any sort of disease, etc.

 

As for why Goodell would want to come down on the Patriots, its a PR move. The League was rocked with scandals this past season, and he takes the most innocuous one of all to make an example of the Pats so he can point to it and be like, "See? I learned from the Ray Rice thing." Does it really make sense if you think about it, given the utter lack of evidence for his position? Not really. But then, this is Roger Goodell we are talking about, the man who currently thinks it is okay for him to be both a witness and a judge in the same case.

Edited May 17, 2015 by Thanatos19

[oochymp 2,393]

I don't know much about the science involved, but my understanding was that there was no way that environmental factors could have caused the balls to deflate

[Thanatos 2,847]

I don't know much about the science involved, but my understanding was that there was no way that environmental factors could have caused the balls to deflate

 

It depends on which gauge was used to measure the balls. One of them measured 0.4 PSI lower than the other.

 

The Pats argument is that the higher gauge was used to measure the balls pre-game, when Anderson said they were at 12.5, (again based on his best recollection, no one bothered to write this down even with the NFL having been tipped off beforehand that there may be something wrong with the balls), and then the other gauge was used to measure the balls during halftime.

 

The refs said that the lower gauge was indeed used during halftime, so Exponent's argument turns on whether or not the same gauge was used pre-game or not. Walt Anderson's best recollection is that he used the higher-measuring gauge, but Exponent practically ignores this because it would undermine their conclusions.

 

I also have a question here. Would it have been all that hard for Exponent to run a little experiment? Recreate the conditions as closely as possible and then see what the PSI change was?

Edited May 17, 2015 by Thanatos19

[Vin+ 3,121]

https://s3.amazonaws.com/s3.documentcloud.org/documents/2073724/wells-report-to-the-nfl-on-deflategate-at-the.pdf

 

Skip to page 144. That begins the Exponent findings.

[Vin+ 3,121]

 

A "high-ranking NFL source" tells Sports Illustrated's Greg A. Bedard that the Patriots' decision to forego an appeal of their Deflategate punishment does not include a tacit agreement that Tom Brady's suspension will be reduced.

Owner Robert Kraft is getting praised for having some sort of master plan, but it appears he's going more by gut feel. It stands to reason to any logical person that Tuesday's announcement will work in Brady's favor as he works to get his four-game ban reduced. It also remains possible Kraft and commissioner Roger Goodell reached a wink/nod agreement behind closed doors.

Source: Greg A. Bedard on Twitter

[Vin+ 3,121]

 

NFL commissioner Roger Goodell stated Wednesday that he is open to hearing any "new information" Tom Brady can offer in connection with his Deflategate suspension, prior to Brady's appeal.

NFL Network's Ian Rapoport came away believing the "door seems very open" to a reduction of Brady's four-game ban. On Tuesday, owner Bob Kraft announced the Patriots would not appeal their $1 million fine and loss of draft picks, which led some observers to speculate the Pats might have a tacit agreement that the NFL would, in turn, back off on its discipline of Brady. Brady initially balked at providing the league with his cellphone and email. Perhaps the suspension will be reduced if he gives them those things now.

Source: Ian Rapoport on Twitter

[Favre4Ever+ 4,476]

Nobody even asked for his cell phone to begin with. They wanted him to give his cell phone to his agent who would than answer questions... Lol. Guilty. Guilty. Guilty.

[Thanatos 2,847]

The NFLPA is the one that told Brady not to give up his cell phone records, even through his agent. They didn't want the precedent to be set.

 

Why do they need his texts, btw? Texts go two ways, they have the other two guys phones, if there was any direct contact between them, they'd already have those conversations.

Edited May 21, 2015 by Thanatos19

[Vin+ 3,121]

 

Contacted by Profootballtalk.com, the NFL office stated Friday that there is no date currently set for the appeal of Tom Brady's four-game suspension.

Although owner Bob Kraft backed down from the league, Brady isn't, and is pursuing a reduction of his ban. For selfish reasons (read: fantasy magazine deadline), our hope is there will be a resolution in Brady's case by early June.

Source: Profootballtalk on Twitter

 

 

 

 

The NFL has rejected the NFL Players Association's motion for Roger Goodell to recuse himself from Tom Brady's four-game suspension appeal.

The rejection may not bode well for Tom Terrific's chances of having his ban eliminated, unless of course the Patriots have a wink-nod agreement with Goodell, as has been rumored and/or speculated. We still tentatively expect Brady's suspension to be reduced, but probably not rescinded altogether.

 

 

Tack on more games, Rog.

[Favre4Ever+ 4,476]

Sometimes I don't understand the NFLPA (or any union probably)... Like, I understand it's their job to look out for the players and what not... but Tom Brady is a cheater. In the interest of every other player in the league, I feel like they should also take a stand against him.

I just hate unions.

[Cherry 1,302]

but Tom Brady is a cheater.

That's the issue. We don't officially know yet.

[Thanatos 2,847]

I think Favre has a valid point though. Even if the NFLPA thought/knew he was, they'd still take his side. It's what unions do, and it is kinda dumb.