Confederate Flag Ruling

[oochymp 2,393]

I'm sure most everyone has seen something about the ruling that SCOTUS handed down today in Walker v. Sons of Confederate Veterans, but just in case not I'll give a little recap and a link to the opinion. This case involved a proposed vanity license plate proposed by the Texas Division of the Sons of Confederate Veterans that was rejected largely because it included the Confederate Flag. The SCV sued the Texas DMV (referred to as "the Board" throughout the opinion so I'll do the same) claiming that the rejection of the plates constituted a violation of the group's First Amendment right to free speech. The District Court ruled in favor of the Board, the Fifth Circuit reversed that ruling in a split decision, and it was appealed to SCOTUS. Today, SCOTUS released it's opinion in favor of the Board on the grounds that the custom plates constitute government speech and are therefore not controlled by the free speech clause.

 

Here's the opinion: http://www.supremecourt.gov/opinions/14pdf/14-144_758b.pdf

 

I agree with the result, but not the reasoning, I think it borders on the absurd to call custom license plates government speech so I hope they narrow this finding soon. I think that SCOTUS was afraid to refer to the Confederate Flag as 'offensive' which forced them through these legal gymnastics to reach this verdict. Anyone else have any thoughts?

[blotsfan 2,112]

I know very little about law but the confederate flag is racist

Edited June 19, 2015 by blotsfan

[oochymp 2,393]

Before I start on this I want to lead with I agree that the confederate flag has been used far too often by racist people to convey racist viewpoints to say that it symbolizes anything but those racist viewpoints to the average person seeing it.

 

Having said that, one thing that's really irritating me about the discussion over the confederate flag (by which I mean the lists of reasons it shouldn't be flown because that's the only side of the 'discussion' I've seen) is the insinuation that the South had a monopoly on racism in the 1860s. Yes, slavery was awful, yes, slavery needed to be ended, yes, slavery was the worst thing that was happening to blacks in the 1860s. Having said all of that, there were a lot of racists in general in the 1860s. A lot of the people fighting to keep slavery out of the West just didn't want blacks there, a lot of abolitionists wanted to send blacks 'back' to Africa (even though many of them were part of families that had been in America for multiple generations)

 

The point I'm going for here is that the Civil War was a lot more complex than the vast majority of people want to admit, and that certainly includes those who diminish the role of slavery in the decision of many states to secede. That said, we don't need a clear answer on what the Civil War was about to recognize that this flag has been used by so many racist groups in the last 150 years that separating it as a symbol from the racist acts committed underneath it is nearly impossible.

 

I think if the conversation about the flag could be separated from the Civil War then a lot more people would be on board with removing it, because the bottom line is even if someone thinks that flying the confederate flag thinks they're conjuring an image like this:

 

they need to recognize that what most people are seeing is something more like this:

[RazorStar 4,025]

[Favre4Ever+ 4,476]

Fair warning... I haven't read any posts here yet. I wanted to give my opinion before potentially being influenced one way or another by different links or people and if I change afterwards, so be it.

There has been a big hoopla about the confederate flag for some time and it was rejuvenated with the shootings down in South Carolina. My opinion is that political correctness is bullshit and the people who want to blame the confederacy or the ideas of 'racism' or things like that on are ridiculous.

It's a flag... Any power that it has is given to it by the people. Empowering symbols and words does nothing but create fear and loathing.

[Guest Phailadelphia]

This should have happened 160 years ago. What kind of country glorifies a part of its history where a group of states seceded and tried to break up the Union over the issue of slavery? It's literally the worst thing the US has ever done but the South is littered with monuments to the Confederacy and for all the wrong reasons.

[CampinWithaMissingPerson 2,025]

[oochymp 2,393]

I'm also getting annoyed with the "oh, your ancestors fought for the Confederacy? your ancestors fought for slavery" narrative. Most of the soldiers didn't own slaves, most Southerners didn't own slaves by the Civil War, the people who did own slaves at that point were the very wealthy and when was the last time the very wealthy actively participated in any war? So you're going to tell me that thousands of men who didn't own slaves fought so that the wealthy people in their society could keep their slaves? I can't buy that argument, for the most part soldiers were fighting because they put their loyalty to their state over their loyalty to the national government, and given climate of that time period that shouldn't be a surprise to anyone.

[Maverick 791]

If you know the type of guy I am, you probably already know my mindset behind this so I'll spare my words, but I will say one thing that's kind of odd to me:

 

You wouldn't see another country allowing a defeated side's battle flag to be flown of an enemy nation that waged war against them.

Edited June 25, 2015 by Maverick

[blotsfan 2,112]

It's not even that. I don't care when people fly the British flag. It's just that the confederacy was founded because people wanted the right to own slaves.

 

I do have a compromise though. They won't use the flag we've all seen, but they can use the last flag of the confederacy:

 

[Bucman 891]

1st amendment - Freedom to be a pussy.

[RazorStar 4,025]

second amendment - you can't say pussy, that's offensive

[JetsFan4Life 542]

I am just so fucking sick of the Confederate flag. Was there way more to the Confederacy than the fact they wanted slavery? Absolutely. But they wanted slavery and were willing to fight for it, to the point that they were trying to BREAK AWAY FROM THE UNION. Yet people claim it's American to wave that Confederate flag when all they were doing was trying to leave the Union.

 

Oh yeah and they're losers. Never won a war. Never won shit. Lo. Sers.

[Thanatos 2,847]

I am just so fucking sick of the Confederate flag. Was there way more to the Confederacy than the fact they wanted slavery? Absolutely. But they wanted slavery and were willing to fight for it, to the point that they were trying to BREAK AWAY FROM THE UNION. Yet people claim it's American to wave that Confederate flag when all they were doing was trying to leave the Union.

 

Oh yeah and they're losers. Never won a war. Never won shit. Lo. Sers.

And none of that gives you or the government the right to prohibit flying one.

[blotsfan 2,112]

Which no one has suggested should happen.

[JetsFan4Life 542]

And none of that gives you or the government the right to prohibit flying one.

 

Nope. Part of what makes this country great and why it is retarded to try and secede from it, let alone promote that idea by waving that flag.

[Thanatos 2,847]

Nope. Part of what makes this country great and why it is retarded to try and secede from it, let alone promote that idea by waving that flag.

Do you think the average person who waves it is promoting the idea of seceding from the Union?

[blotsfan 2,112]

No, they're promoting the idea that white people are superior to black people.

[Cherry 1,302]

No, they're promoting the idea that white people are superior to black people.

Even though someone I know has three black siblings, she's obviously promoting white supremacy by keeping stuff with the confederate flag on it.

[blotsfan 2,112]

I'm Jewish, if I have stuff with Swastikas all over it, does that change the meaning of the symbol?*

 

 

 

*the answer is no

[JetsFan4Life 542]

Do you think the average person who waves it is promoting the idea of seceding from the Union?

 

No, because the average person waving it is a dumb hick who doesn't even know 2+2.

 

What it doesn't change is what it means to a growing population in our country that continues to get discriminated against everyday.

Edited June 27, 2015 by JetsFan4Life

[ATL_Predator+ 1,196]

It's stupid.

 

It's offensive.

 

It's Unamerican in every form. In fact, it's a form of anarchy which is against the U.S. government.

 

It should've been banned when the fucking Civil War is over, and it has always enraged me every day driving in bumfuck central PA seeing bikers and losers with lifted trucks that embrace a 'redneck' lifestyle.

 

Burn them all.

[Cherry 1,302]

I'm Jewish, if I have stuff with Swastikas all over it, does that change the meaning of the symbol?*

 

 

 

*the answer is no

I'd say there is a pretty big difference between the nazi flag and the confederate flag.

[CampinWithaMissingPerson 2,025]

I always looked at people who repped the Confederate Battle Flag as yet another segment of people who refused to fully integrate into American society. I looked at them no different than any immigrant who refused to speak english when they got here, which ironically lots of those types of folks swear they hate

 

They never let go. Until you fully integrate into popular American culture you will forever be marginalized. This happens to any group in America. So to keep holding on to this divisive symbol is just hurting themselves. I don't get it because I've never identified with that flag, being a redneck or the south in general. It's just not who I was/am. I've got some family on my dad's side who are definitely rednecks/white trash but even they don't fly that flag or have it on their cars, anything.

 

Y'all notice how many exploitative type TV shows there are about making fun of rednecks now? They're everywhere. All aimed to indulge in the obvious differences of that segment of society. Is it that much different than the old Blaxploitation films? This is what happens when you continue to hold out and separate yourself from everyone else, you get marginalized.

 

Anytime you refuse to integrate this is going to happen, but there's this weird romanticized phenomenon with shit like this. The same reason that little fuckboy Roof or whoever his name is that sparked this debate had those patches on his jacket of the old Apartheid South African and Rhodesian flags. He's holding on to those dinosaurs. It's very American however to have that "independent" spirit. So this gets romanticized. But really, we're just humans, and humans are social animals. If you go against the pack, you get left. America is finally ready to leave, so either those people can hold on and get left behind or let go and continue to ride. Their choice.

[blotsfan 2,112]

I'd say there is a pretty big difference between the nazi flag and the confederate flag.

Yeah the nazis enslaved and committed genocide on Jews for 10 years or so. The US did it to black people for hundreds.