Best Trio

[Turry 755]

Gronk>>>Graham. Jimmy is an over sized WR not a TE. A TE is a weapon in the passing game and one can block when he needs to and is effective doing it. Jimmy does not want to block and is a pussy when it comes to doing it. Saints announced last season they were going to a more running approach and traded Jimmy away. Why because he is a terrible blocker. Pretty sure the last few years he lined up out wide for more snaps than on the line.

[Sarge+ 3,436]

There's also no way Graham is a better route runner... watch a Pats game once and watch how wide open Gronk is...even against good defenses... he runs routes as well as anyone.

[Thanatos 2,847]

Dude this isn't 1980 the position of TE has evolved so much especially over the last 5-10 years. Do you realise there are receiving TE's who do still block but have a better ability to help out the passing game by being an extra receiver instead of blocking.

 

You do also realise that although a TE's primary job is to block but not their sole purpose?

 

By saying what your saying you are doing a huge discredit to more recieving TEs such as Gates, Witten, Bennett and Olsen who are more focused on the passing side than just blocking.

 

Also you understand the meaning of durability right? Graham has missed 1 game in 4 years due to an injury, he's had knocks the last two games but played through them and still put up good numbers. Gronk has missed 15 games in that same period..... Graham is more durable.

 

Also have you seen the two run routes? Graham is cleaner, sharper and quick in his routes compared to Gronk.

 

I'm not if it's just me and you don't want to lose a debate against or what, but your arguement is moronic. More so because my general perception and prefer is a guy like Graham instead of Gronk because that's basically what your trying to attack.

 

Okay, bud.

 

1. You're misrepresenting my position. I am in no way saying that a TE who puts up good receiving numbers is a bad TE. I am saying that that is not the sole basis on which we should judge TEs. It's not even, IMO, the primary basis. It does play a role. Were it the sole or primary basis, there'd be no real separation between TEs and WRs. Interestingly enough, even Graham considers himself a WR, not a TE, as he wanted to be paid like one.

 

2. Jimmy Graham is not one of those TEs who can both block and run solid routes and get yards. He does the yards part. He can't block worth a damn. Josh Hill is a better blocker than Graham, that's why Hill was put in on running plays last year more often than Jimmy.

 

3. In the last three years, Graham has had one great season- 2013. His numbers in 2014 and 2012 would be just fine if he were a well-rounded TE. But he is not. He is purely a receiving threat. Which means his numbers in 2012 and 2014 represent rather average seasons for him.

 

4. What is more, while Jimmy perhaps hasn't missed as many games as Gronk, he still was playing hurt and was clearly severely limited by it. He played anyway, and I give him credit for that, but to say Gronk has durability issues because of two fluky injuries is stretching it, to say the least. Do you understand the meaning of durability issues? Its not solely, "this guy got injured, therefore he has durability issues," which is apparently your interpretation.

 

5. To say that Witten, Gates, and Olsen are more focused on the passing side than blocking is just plain wrong. All three are good to great blocking TEs. Witten and Olsen are two of the best at that part of things.

 

6. Gronk is a far better route runner than Graham. As Sarge said, watch some Patriots games. Graham is a worse route runner than Vernon, Olsen, Gates, Witten, *insert competent WR here*. He gets open a lot of times by OPI and/or by simply being tall.

 

I'm not attacking that you would want Graham over Gronk, though that is crazy, its your opinion, have at it.

 

What I am attacking, is your reasoning, which makes no sense, as you say things that are simply false, such as Graham is the better receiver, the better route-runner etc.

 

Jimmy Graham is nothing more than a WR who happens to line up at the TE position. As a WR, he's a great one. What he is not, is a top-2 TE. I forgot about Gates, thank you for the reminder, so I'm not sure I'd even have Jimmy in my top-5 TEs- basically because he isn't really a TE at all.

Edited August 16, 2015 by Thanatos19

[ATL_Predator+ 1,196]

 

Okay, bud.

 

1. You're misrepresenting my position. I am in no way saying that a TE who puts up good receiving numbers is a bad TE. I am saying that that is not the sole basis on which we should judge TEs. It's not even, IMO, the primary basis. It does play a role. Were it the sole or primary basis, there'd be no real separation between TEs and WRs. Interestingly enough, even Graham considers himself a WR, not a TE, as he wanted to be paid like one.

 

2. Jimmy Graham is not one of those TEs who can both block and run solid routes and get yards. He does the yards part. He can't block worth a damn. Josh Hill is a better blocker than Graham, that's why Hill was put in on running plays last year more often than Jimmy.

 

3. In the last three years, Graham has had one great season- 2013. His numbers in 2014 and 2012 would be just fine if he were a well-rounded TE. But he is not. He is purely a receiving threat. Which means his numbers in 2012 and 2014 represent rather average seasons for him.

 

4. What is more, while Jimmy perhaps hasn't missed as many games as Gronk, he still was playing hurt and was clearly severely limited by it. He played anyway, and I give him credit for that, but to say Gronk has durability issues because of two fluky injuries is stretching it, to say the least. Do you understand the meaning of durability issues? Its not solely, "this guy got injured, therefore he has durability issues," which is apparently your interpretation.

 

5. To say that Witten, Gates, and Olsen are more focused on the passing side than blocking is just plain wrong. All three are good to great blocking TEs. Witten and Olsen are two of the best at that part of things.

 

6. Gronk is a far better route runner than Graham. As Sarge said, watch some Patriots games. Graham is a worse route runner than Vernon, Olsen, Gates, Witten, *insert competent WR here*. He gets open a lot of times by OPI and/or by simply being tall.

 

I'm not attacking that you would want Graham over Gronk, though that is crazy, its your opinion, have at it.

 

What I am attacking, is your reasoning, which makes no sense, as you say things that are simply false, such as Graham is the better receiver, the better route-runner etc.

 

Jimmy Graham is nothing more than a WR who happens to line up at the TE position. As a WR, he's a great one. What he is not, is a top-2 TE. I forgot about Gates, thank you for the reminder, so I'm not sure I'd even have Jimmy in my top-5 TEs- basically because he isn't really a TE at all.

Couldn't have said it better.

 

Great post.

[DonovanMcnabb for H.O.F 2,241]

I really don't know how anyone can argue that Graham is not the second best tight end in the NFL.

 

Only other TE with even an argument at this point as the second best if it's not Graham, is Olsen.

[Favre4Ever+ 4,476]

Dmac smokin' some of that doo doo ass shit again guys, don't mind him.

 

Jason Witten is still alive. Has been and remains one of the best TEs in the league -- and he's been doing it for a decade. It's been said already so I don't want to keep rehashing everything, but Graham is a one-dimensional player. Graham got overrated something fierce just because of some of the receiving numbers he's put up -- and yes only some of them. He isn't even a consistently GREAT/Elite receiver, IMO.

[DonovanMcnabb for H.O.F 2,241]

Rofl, Jason Witten is better then Jimmy Graham? Graham is without a doubt the second best TE in the NFL. Blocking aside, it's not even close. Graham is by far and away the best receiving TE in the league not named Gronkowski.

 

The only reason Graham is not in a class of his own below Gronk is because he can't block. And you guys can keep trying to act like blocking is a legitimate reason to downplay the dominance of a TE, but the truth of the matter is that a TE's impact on a run game is minuscule at best compared to the amount of impact being an elite receiving threat at TE makes to a team's passing game.

[Favre4Ever+ 4,476]

Rofl, Jason Witten is better then Jimmy Graham? Graham is without a doubt the second best TE in the NFL. Blocking aside, it's not even close. Graham is by far and away the best receiving TE in the league not named Gronkowski.

 

The only reason Graham is not in a class of his own below Gronk is because he can't block. And you guys can keep trying to act like blocking is a legitimate reason to downplay the dominance of a TE, but the truth of the matter is that a TE's impact on a run game is minuscule at best compared to the amount of impact being an elite receiving threat at TE makes to a team's passing game.

 

Tim Tebow is better than Aaron Rodgers aside from the whole accuracy, arm strength, vision, footwork, throwing motion, release, mobility, pocket awareness, anticipation, and general decision making stuff.

You are just overrating Jimmy Graham something fierce. Jason Witten > Jimmy Graham all day every day for the last decade.

[DonovanMcnabb for H.O.F 2,241]

Gee, I never knew Tim Tebow in the few seasons he's been in the league had outperformed Aaron Rodger's best seasons twice, already.

 

Stop that nonsense. Even excluding Graham who is easily a better TE then Witten, there are at least 4 TEs I would take before Witten.

[Cherry 1,302]

Greg Olsen is the only TE near Jimmy right now IMO (Gronk obv #1). Honestly it just depends on what you want in a TE. If you want a WR, Jimmy is your guy. If you want the total package you'd take Witten or Olsen.

[oochymp 2,393]

Stop that nonsense. Even excluding Graham who is easily a better TE then Witten, there are at least 4 TEs I would take before Witten.

now that's crazy talk

[Thanatos 2,847]

Jimmy Graham isn't a TE. He's a WR.

[56AceInDaPlace 110]

Gee, I never knew Tim Tebow in the few seasons he's been in the league had outperformed Aaron Rodger's best seasons twice, already.

 

Stop that nonsense. Even excluding Graham who is easily a better TE then Witten, there are at least 4 TEs I would take before Witten.

 

So besides Gronk and Graham, who are the other 4? Vernon Davis, Greg Olsen? Who are the other 2?

 

While I agree Graham is the 2nd best tightend, idk if there is 4 other TE'S before Written.

Edited August 19, 2015 by 56AceInDaPlace

[DonovanMcnabb for H.O.F 2,241]

now that's crazy talk

 

...What's crazy is that people still think Witten to be a top 5 TE...

 

So besides Gronk and Graham, who are the other 4? Vernon Davis, Greg Olsen? Who are the other 2?

 

While I agree Graham is the 2nd best tightend, idk if there is 4 other TE'S before Written.

 

Olsen, Bennett, Kelce, Cameron, Gates are all guys I would take today over Witten. And Vernon Davis is only now out contention because he played so bad last year when he was healthy.

[BC 331]

I feel like guys like Kelce and Cameron are guys still trying to get Witten-like results. Hard to knock Witten on much of anything. Taking Witten off the 'boys seems a lot more significant than subtracting the others from their respective teams. The way there is rarely missed blocks from the guy and how they can generally anticipate 750-1000 yards from the guy might have something to do with it.

[56AceInDaPlace 110]

...What's crazy is that people still think Witten to be a top 5 TE...

 

 

 

Olsen, Bennett, Kelce, Cameron, Gates are all guys I would take today over Witten. And Vernon Davis is only now out contention because he played so bad last year when he was healthy.

Hell no on Kelce and Bennett and Cameron. I disagree but that's just me.

[Favre4Ever+ 4,476]

 

...What's crazy is that people still think Witten to be a top 5 TE...

 

 

Olsen, Bennett, Kelce, Cameron, Gates are all guys I would take today over Witten. And Vernon Davis is only now out contention because he played so bad last year when he was healthy.

Dmac, do you even know what you are saying right now? Why are you so down on Jason Witten? I know he is getting a bit older, but I don't think he is dropping off much, if at all.

 

[DonovanMcnabb for H.O.F 2,241]

You're talking about Graham being overrated, if anything this thread proves it's Witten who's "overrated with a fierce".

 

At this point in his career he's nothing more then a checkdown option, and it's not like he's some godly blocker, either. There's really no argument for Witten as a top 5 TE in the league. Let alone better then Graham.

[Favre4Ever+ 4,476]

You're talking about Graham being overrated, if anything this thread proves it's Witten who's "overrated with a fierce".

 

At this point in his career he's nothing more then a checkdown option, and it's not like he's some godly blocker, either. There's really no argument for Witten as a top 5 TE in the league. Let alone better then Graham.

I agree that there shouldn't be an argument for Witten in the Top 5... It should just kind of be obvious that he is there. DEFINITELY better than Graham. 33 year old Jason Witten runs circles around that pretty average WR you are defending. lol

[seanbrock 1,684]

Ok, JD is much smarter about football than this and is CLEARLY just trolling right now. Ask defensive coordinators on all 32 NFL teams who they'd rather face out of any TE not named Rob Gronkowski and I guarantee you Jimmy Graham is at the top of the list of guys they don't want to see come Sunday. Is he even a competent blocker? No, but don't forget Tony Gonzalez was never a blocker either. That's just simply what makes Gronk so special is that he can put up first team All Pro WR numbers at TE while being probably the best blocking starting TE in the league. That's why I said that in my book he's already the GOAT.

 

Graham makes defenses adjust their whole scheme and a lot of times they just simply can't stop him. Guys on here are knocking him because he's tall and can out jump everyone for the ball which I think is beyond retarded. It's part of what makes him so unstoppable at times. Look at the attention Graham gets when he's on the field and look at the production in the face of the double and sometimes triple coverage. If you ignore that then you're basically just a hater.

[Thanatos 2,847]

Graham got all that attention because he was on the Saints, and who do the Saints have that's anything better than a glorified #3 WR.

 

Sean, I was knocking him for being tall and getting open because Bangy's argument is that he was getting open because he's some superb route runner, which he isn't.

 

Your point about who would people rather face is irrelevant because I could name at least six or seven WRs teams would want to face less than Graham. Comparing him to TEs is silly because he isn't a TE. You can't rank him with the tight ends because the job he performs is solely being a receiving threat.

 

Gonzalez may not have been a world-beater at blocking, but he was far and away a better blocker than Graham is. I remember a block he threw on Greg Hardy a couple years back that was just a de-cleater, as Gruden calls it.

 

Answer this one please: Beyond the fact that he sometimes lines up as a TE, is there any other reason for Jimmy Graham to be counted as a TE?

Edited August 20, 2015 by Thanatos19

[Turry 755]

2013 season he spent 67 % of his snaps out at wide, Last year no idea what the number was. Dude is an oversized WR not a TE.

[Sarge+ 3,436]

Jimmy doesn't even consider himself a TE, so why should we?

[DonovanMcnabb for H.O.F 2,241]

Graham got all that attention because he was on the Saints, and who do the Saints have that's anything better than a glorified #3 WR.

 

Sean, I was knocking him for being tall and getting open because Bangy's argument is that he was getting open because he's some superb route runner, which he isn't.

 

Your point about who would people rather face is irrelevant because I could name at least six or seven WRs teams would want to face less than Graham. Comparing him to TEs is silly because he isn't a TE. You can't rank him with the tight ends because the job he performs is solely being a receiving threat.

 

Gonzalez may not have been a world-beater at blocking, but he was far and away a better blocker than Graham is. I remember a block he threw on Greg Hardy a couple years back that was just a de-cleater, as Gruden calls it.

 

Answer this one please: Beyond the fact that he sometimes lines up as a TE, is there any other reason for Jimmy Graham to be counted as a TE?

 

The fact of the matter is that the TE position today is no longer what the position used to be, and its been like that for a while. You can be a TE in today's league while being a below average to bad run blocker.

 

He's a TE, the league considers him a TE, his coaches consider him a TE, his contract makes him a TE and D-Coordinators handle him like they would handle a great receiving TE.

 

Which is the exact reason Graham lost his appeal, because if we are to pretend like he isn't a TE because he hasn't met some arbitrary quota of blocking plays, or be able to block at a certain level, then there's a whole line of TEs who would also no longer be considered TEs.

 

Also, your insercion that Graham gets all this attention just because he is the only weapon they have on offense is blatanly false. He gets this much attention because if he doesn't have at least two, three guys on him, or a #1 corner on him, he's destroying defenses, and because he's one of the best red zone threats regardless of positions.

2013 season he spent 67 % of his snaps out at wide, Last year no idea what the number was. Dude is an oversized WR not a TE.

 

He spent 67% of his snaps off-line, "only" 22% of his snaps were out wide. And the amount of time he spent off-line had/has more to do with the fact the Saints threw the ball more then almost everyone else and spent more time in the shotgun/pistol more then anyone else then anything else.

 

That same year Gonzalez ran more routes off the line then Graham, and right behind Graham was a handful of tight ends who ran a lot of their routes either out wide, or in the slot including Gronk. So all these guys should be stripped of being labeled TEs?

Edited August 20, 2015 by DonovanMcnabb for H.O.F

[oochymp 2,393]

the funny thing about this argument is that the thread is looking at trios grouping TEs in there as pass catchers, so you could argue that for the purposes of this thread the blocking ability doesn't matter

 

that said, there wasn't really much discussion over whether anyone even approaches Pittsburgh's trio, so I guess it's good that this thread took on a life of its own