Best Trio

[Favre4Ever+ 4,476]

Good thing the smart people of TGP have taken your original question and made it more practical and about who has the best players at those positions.

If you want to to know who the best pass catchers are, let's talk about the best WR Corps. Although that poll would probably end up more lopsided than this one.

[Dutch 874]

Boom Dmac! Good post man

Edited August 21, 2015 by Dutch

[Thanatos 2,847]

Not really. He basically didn't answer my question.

 

"Because other people say he's a TE" is not an argument. Let's be real, the only reason the Saints wanted him listed as a TE was because they get to pay him less. Same reason why Graham wanted to be a WR, so they'd have to pay him more. The argument is completely invalid both ways.

 

D-Coords handle him no different than they would a great WR that also lined up there, so that's kinda invalid.

 

Saying that he gets all that attention because they have no other real threat is actually 100% true. Calvin Johnson would get more attention if Golden Tate weren't on the team. It's a simple matter of fact statement. Jimmy Graham gets a massive amount of attention because he's a great player on a team with no other great threats. If you, for example, take Demaryius Thomas or Dez Bryant and put them on the same team with Jimmy Graham, he will get less attention. There's no argument against that.

 

He simply can't block. Period. He's a receiving threat, nothing more, albeit a very good one. That doesn't make him a TE. And if I want an actual tight end, I will take Gronk, Olsen, and Witten over Graham, since all of them are nearly as good or better than Graham at receiving, and vastly superior blockers. Davis and Gates, I'm unsure about, but they are close as well. Davis might also be over Graham, but idk what that was last year.

[Turry 755]

 

 

The fact of the matter is that the TE position today is no longer what the position used to be, and its been like that for a while. You can be a TE in today's league while being a below average to bad run blocker.

 

He's a TE, the league considers him a TE, his coaches consider him a TE, his contract makes him a TE and D-Coordinators handle him like they would handle a great receiving TE.

 

Which is the exact reason Graham lost his appeal, because if we are to pretend like he isn't a TE because he hasn't met some arbitrary quota of blocking plays, or be able to block at a certain level, then there's a whole line of TEs who would also no longer be considered TEs.

 

Also, your insercion that Graham gets all this attention just because he is the only weapon they have on offense is blatanly false. He gets this much attention because if he doesn't have at least two, three guys on him, or a #1 corner on him, he's destroying defenses, and because he's one of the best red zone threats regardless of positions.

 

He spent 67% of his snaps off-line, "only" 22% of his snaps were out wide. And the amount of time he spent off-line had/has more to do with the fact the Saints threw the ball more then almost everyone else and spent more time in the shotgun/pistol more then anyone else then anything else.

 

That same year Gonzalez ran more routes off the line then Graham, and right behind Graham was a handful of tight ends who ran a lot of their routes either out wide, or in the slot including Gronk. So all these guys should be stripped of being labeled TEs?

 

 

My bad 22% of those snaps were out wide the rest were in the slot. Ive seen WR's who block better in the run game or at least show an effort to block than Graham. While yes the NFL is a passing league you still gotta run you still gotta block. When you have other players on different teams and coaches talking about your blocking or lack of it really says something especially when you play TE.

 

As for the bolded part. Last year when that Graham and Saints shit was going down. The franchise tag for a TE compared to a WR was about 5.5 million. So of course the Saints coaching staff and the ownership are gonna say he is a TE, Like sarge said Jimmy does not consider himself a TE. Looking at last seasons numbers he was not top ten in any Receiving categories. Bennett caught more passes. Four other Tight ends had more yards including Delanie Walker.

Edited August 21, 2015 by monstersofthemidway

[Dutch 874]

So TE's that comes into the game just to solely run block and seldomly go out for passes aren't TE's? Are we to rename them as offensive linemen? No, not at all. TE is a hybrid position and whatever role the "coach" decides to use the TE for tactical/strategically advantages is the coaches preference. OLB that specialize in rushing the passer and rarely drop into coverage or aren't that good at it, do we start calling them defensive ends?

 

It's the coaches job to utilize the players characteristics in ways that create mismatches. Graham is a much better receiving threat than a blocker. Does that make him not qualify to be a TE? No.

 

Also, just because other guys like Olsen, Witten, Davis (etc) may block better than Graham doesn't mean they are better than Graham. Matte Forte is all around complete RB who not only runs the ball but is very effective catching the ball too. Does that mean he's been better than A.P who primarily just runs the rock because Forte would be considered a more complete package? Randy Moss ran a limited route tree and wasn't a good blocker. Would a WR who had a superior route tree and a better blocker be considered better than Moss? No. That's because what Moss could do was so effective and productive that is surpasses what the other guys brought to the table.

 

Graham is far from a good blocker but he is asked to do so. The coaches determine how they want to use the players. That doesn't make Jimmy Graham any less of a TE.

[Cherry 1,302]

Only TE close to Jimmy Graham for the #2 spot is Greg Olsen. Olsen just way more well-rounded. Witten isn't bad but he's not nearly the threat catching passes that Graham is.

[Dutch 874]

As for the bolded part. Last year when that Graham and Saints shit was going down. The franchise tag for a TE compared to a WR was about 5.5 million. So of course the Saints coaching staff and the ownership are gonna say he is a TE, Like sarge said Jimmy does not consider himself a TE.

Of course Graham tried to label himself as a Wr. It was all about the money. When it's time to hang the cleats up and it's possibly hall of fame time, he'll change his tune and be shouting TE

[Favre4Ever+ 4,476]

I wouldn't even begin about the Hall of Fame yet for Jimmy Graham. I know you just said 'possibly', but damn... Lol. Standards just continue to drop , don't they?

[Dutch 874]

Standards dropping? So if Graham continues to produce at the level he's been playing at, he can't be considered for the hall? Stop it lol. Hes only putting up historic numbers. The man has 51 TDs in 5 years. He's averaging 10 tds a season in his career and out pacing the GOAT Tony Gonzalez by 21 Tds at this point in his career and more yards and receptions. I guess it's unreasonable to think if he keeps it up he can possibly ly make it

Edited August 21, 2015 by Dutch

[Bangy 19]

The reaction of hate towards Jimmy Graham as a TE is ridiculous.

 

It doesn't matter if he can't block for shit, the position of TE has evolved so much it now at a point where that is almost irrelevant. The effect a TE now has isn't in blocking for the run game it's generally about how effective they are in the pass game.

 

JD you had full on hate for Jermichael Finley when he was a Packer, that wasn't because of his ability to block either, you were at that point just focused on his ability in the passing game.

Graham is listed as a TE, the NFL recognise him as a TE, he only tried to get WR money for just that the money. Jimmy's contribution to the passing game is immense and to say that he isn't a Top 2 TE let alone Top 5 is ridiculous.

There is also little to know claim to saying that he can't get into the HoF, as a TE is receiving numbers are pretty damn good and has been consistently one of the best in that area of the game in his position.

[FartWaffles 1,857]

ITT: Bangy gettin' trolled.

[Thanatos 2,847]

He's broken 1,000 yards receiving twice out of four starting years and can't block worth shit. Clearly, Hall of Fame.

 

"Consistently been one of the best" is stretching it. A lot.

Edited August 21, 2015 by Thanatos19

[Dutch 874]

He's broken 1,000 yards receiving twice out of four starting years and can't block worth shit. Clearly, Hall of Fame.

 

Don't forget the 51 Tds and the 889 and 982 yard campaigns as well. Hmm, Tonys first four starting seasons, he only recorded one 1,000 yard season and an 800 and 900 yard season. Hmm, Interesting that Gates only has two 1,000 yard seasons out of his entire 13 year career.

 

It's funny that F4E brought up standards dropping and then to see standards suddenly rise. 1,000 yards out of a TE was rare. Tony only did it 4 times in 17 seasons. And apparently Screw colossal TD numbers lol. 889 yards and 10 TDS, 982 yards and 9 TDS is a lot of what those 2 hall of famers numbers look like averaged out but apparently 1,000 is the mark now. The extreme position some of you guys take is hilarious sometimes

Edited August 21, 2015 by Dutch

[56AceInDaPlace 110]

People hating on Jimmy Graham is crazy. Everyone is entitled to their opinions of players. But there is such thing as a bad opinion lol.

 

So some of you here, CAN HONESTLY say.. if Graham signed with your team, you wouldn't be excited as hell? To have a top tightend on your team? Feel your team improved big time with a weapon?

 

So what he can't block. I understand wanting the full package in a position. But he is a top talent receiving threat. Redzone threat. He has been a top threat for awhile now. So you would rather take a decent receiving tightend, who can block well over Graham? I don't get it.

[Thanatos 2,847]

Don't forget the 51 Tds and the 889 and 982 yard campaigns as well. Hmm, Tonys first four starting seasons, he only recorded one 1,000 yard season and an 800 and 900 yard season. Hmm, Interesting that Gates only has two 1,000 yard seasons out of his entire 13 year career.

 

It's funny that F4E brought up standards dropping and then to see standards suddenly rise. 1,000 yards out of a TE was rare. Tony only did it 4 times in 17 seasons. And apparently Screw colossal TD numbers lol. 889 yards and 10 TDS, 982 yards and 9 TDS is a lot of what those 2 hall of famers numbers look like averaged out but apparently 1,000 is the mark now. The extreme position some of you guys take is hilarious sometimes

 

Tony Gonzalez was an all-round great TE. Jimmy Graham is not. As said earlier, his numbers in the other two seasons are great if he's a well-rounded TE, but all he is is a receiving threat, and as such those numbers indicate lackluster seasons.

 

By no means am I, or even Favre, I think, saying Graham can't make the Hall of Fame but people anointing him as a shoo-in five years into his career based on two years of great receiving stats alone is kinda jumping the gun.

Edited August 22, 2015 by Thanatos19

[Dutch 874]

 

Tony Gonzalez was an all-round great TE. Jimmy Graham is not. As said earlier, his numbers in the other two seasons are great if he's a well-rounded TE, but all he is is a receiving threat, and as such those numbers indicate lackluster seasons.

 

By no means am I, or even Favre, I think, saying Graham can't make the Hall of Fame but people anointing him as a shoo-in five years into his career based on two years of great receiving stats alone is kinda jumping the gun.

 

Impact on football games is what makes players great. Graham may not be the best blocker but he undoubtedly impacts football games to a great degree. Those other two seasons are great because of his impact in those games was great. I don't see how those other two seasons weren't great receiving seasons. 800-900 yards with about 8 TDs just about defined Tony G's entire receiving career. So I would argue and say he's had 4 great seasons. Despite him not being a great blocker doesn't mean he didn't have a great year because again, you can't refute his great impact on games.

 

All players are better in some facets of their game over others. Not all RBs are good or effective in their receiving ability. However, they can still impact the game greatly and be great. By your logic of reasoning, Moss can't be great because he wasn't a complete receiver. He didn't block well. Most of his success came off of only 4 routes. But what he could do he did at an elite level and his impact tremendously affected the game. The same thing with Graham. No one, you or anyone else can refute Jimmy Graham's impact on games. He might not be able to block very well but he sure enough take over a game and that's what makes him great. The impact he has on the game.

Edited August 22, 2015 by Dutch

[Favre4Ever+ 4,476]

Don't forget the 51 Tds and the 889 and 982 yard campaigns as well. Hmm, Tonys first four starting seasons, he only recorded one 1,000 yard season and an 800 and 900 yard season. Hmm, Interesting that Gates only has two 1,000 yard seasons out of his entire 13 year career.

 

It's funny that F4E brought up standards dropping and then to see standards suddenly rise. 1,000 yards out of a TE was rare. Tony only did it 4 times in 17 seasons. And apparently Screw colossal TD numbers lol. 889 yards and 10 TDS, 982 yards and 9 TDS is a lot of what those 2 hall of famers numbers look like averaged out but apparently 1,000 is the mark now. The extreme position some of you guys take is hilarious sometimes

You have to take the era and time they played into consideration. Tony Gonzalez ( and other guys like him ) set a new standard for TEs, what he did was arguably the best ever.... He created a new bench mark. Now guys like Gronk are taking that a step further.

 

So... why do we expect more from Jimmy Graham? Because everything he's doing... We've seen it before. And add to the fact that he is truly the definition of one-dimensional... And you kinda need that one dimension to really be special.

 

You have to be able to make those separations. We have to be able to separate and evaluate on each players merits based on the time they have played. There are a lot of mediocre and even bad QBs these days that put up better numbrs than the likes of Bart Starr, Johnny U, etc... Who was better? Every "Good" WR these days tops the numbers of a Don Hutson... Doesn't make them better than Hutson.

 

In this era of super pass heavy offenses and lots of scoring... Jimmy Graham just really doesn't measure up, IMO. You look at where he lines up, you look at what he does... Yes, sometimes he makes big flashy plays.. But at the end of the day, I don't think his production has lived up to the billing or praise he gets.

[DonovanMcnabb for H.O.F 2,241]

People hating on Jimmy Graham is crazy. Everyone is entitled to their opinions of players. But there is such thing as a bad opinion lol.

 

So some of you here, CAN HONESTLY say.. if Graham signed with your team, you wouldn't be excited as hell? To have a top tightend on your team? Feel your team improved big time with a weapon?

 

So what he can't block. I understand wanting the full package in a position. But he is a top talent receiving threat. Redzone threat. He has been a top threat for awhile now. So you would rather take a decent receiving tightend, who can block well over Graham? I don't get it.

 

And again, the thing is that people can act like blocking for a TE is a big deal but the reality is that it really isn't.

 

The amount of impact an elite blocking TE can have on the game is minimal compared to the amount an elite receiving TE can have in a game.

 

The Seattle Seahawks run the ball more then almost any team in the league and they gave up a 1st rd. pick and a guy who was an all-pro in 2013, and one of the best centers in the league who just so happens to specialize in run blocking.

 

It's a whole bunch of noise being made about nothing.

You have to take the era and time they played into consideration. Tony Gonzalez ( and other guys like him ) set a new standard for TEs, what he did was arguably the best ever.... He created a new bench mark. Now guys like Gronk are taking that a step further.

 

So... why do we expect more from Jimmy Graham? Because everything he's doing... We've seen it before. And add to the fact that he is truly the definition of one-dimensional... And you kinda need that one dimension to really be special.

 

You have to be able to make those separations. We have to be able to separate and evaluate on each players merits based on the time they have played. There are a lot of mediocre and even bad QBs these days that put up better numbrs than the likes of Bart Starr, Johnny U, etc... Who was better? Every "Good" WR these days tops the numbers of a Don Hutson... Doesn't make them better than Hutson.

 

In this era of super pass heavy offenses and lots of scoring... Jimmy Graham just really doesn't measure up, IMO. You look at where he lines up, you look at what he does... Yes, sometimes he makes big flashy plays.. But at the end of the day, I don't think his production has lived up to the billing or praise he gets.

 

This makes no sense. How does he, "not measure up" when he's putting up numbers that rivals some of the greatest to ever do it?

Edited August 22, 2015 by DonovanMcnabb for H.O.F

[Favre4Ever+ 4,476]

 

Only TE close to Jimmy Graham for the #2 spot is Greg Olsen. Olsen just way more well-rounded. Witten isn't bad but he's not nearly the threat catching passes that Graham is.

Witten caught a higher % of the passes thrown his way... He averaged more yards per catch. He averaged more yards running after the catch.... He dropped fewer passes.... He fumbled less. Granted, he scored fewer TDs.. But looking at the weapons of Dallas and the weapons of New Orleans, that isn't exactly surprising.

 

Witten > Graham

 

 

 

 

And again, the thing is that people can act like blocking for a TE is a big deal but the reality is that it really isn't.

 

The amount of impact an elite blocking TE can have on the game is minimal compared to the amount an elite receiving TE can have in a game.

 

The Seattle Seahawks run the ball more then almost any team in the league and they gave up a 1st rd. pick and a guy who was an all-pro in 2013, and one of the best centers in the league who just so happens to specialize in run blocking.

 

It's a whole bunch of noise being made about nothing.

 

 

 

This makes no sense. How does he, "not measure up" when he's putting up numbers that rivals some of the greatest to ever do it?

Because in this era of football.. From a pure pass catching TE.. You expect him to put up big numbers. It's nothing new. Like I mentioned with QBs these days... Of course they are putting up better numbers than years prior. I would expect them too. Defenses are penalized for looking at offensive players incorrectly, scoring is up, passing efficiency is at it's pinnacle. Take your game to the next level or get out. Jimmy Graham can get out. And I can honestly say I would not want him on my team.

Edited August 22, 2015 by Favre4Ever

[DonovanMcnabb for H.O.F 2,241]

Because in this era of football.. From a pure pass catching TE.. You expect him to put up big numbers. It's nothing new. Like I mentioned with QBs these days... Of course they are putting up better numbers than years prior. I would expect them too. Defenses are penalized for looking at offensive players incorrectly, scoring is up, passing efficiency is at it's pinnacle. Take your game to the next level or get out. Jimmy Graham can get out. And I can honestly say I would not want him on my team.

 

Lol, again, this makes no sense. Because Graham is putting up numbers that even the greatest of all time never put up, and that's from a guy who's only been playing football for 6 years.

 

You're saying he needs to take his game to the next level, when he's already at a level that only one other TE has ever matched, and that one TE happens to be Gronk.

[Favre4Ever+ 4,476]

 

Lol, again, this makes no sense. Because Graham is putting up numbers that even the greatest of all time never put up, and that's from a guy who's only been playing football for 6 years.

 

You're saying he needs to take his game to the next level, when he's already at a level that only one other TE has ever matched, and that one TE happens to be Gronk.

You're putting all TEs in the history of the NFL ont he same pedestal and grading them by the same token. That sir... Is what makes no sense.

[Dutch 874]

We aren't going to try and downplay the value of a pass catching TE now lol... No way that blocking that you guys are over valuing surpasses putting points on the board. We are talking about a TE that has scored the 2nd most TDs of any offensive player in the league not named Dez Bryant. Sorry, but you can't down play that by saying it's been done before by other TEs. Actually, it's never been done before by other great TEs; 45 TDs . It's even rivaling all time great WR's such as Jerry Rice who scored 49 TDs in his first 4 years. That can't be minimized by downplaying it as if it's normal or everyone is doing it. The only TE's that are doing it are Gronk and Graham. No one else. 45 TDs in 4 years starting. That's history bro. You can't refute that.

[Favre4Ever+ 4,476]

It's not that I am over valuing blocking... It's the fact that I value it at all that really upsets you guys. It just comes down to me valuing versatility and you guys not. Nothing wrong with that, but that's the core of the argument, I think. Gronk is the best TE in the league by a large margin, IMO. That is the pedestal that Graham has to reach for me. Graham isn't even CLOSE to touching the greatness that is contained within Gronk's game. Maybe it's unfair to think of it that way.. I guess that's for you to decide... But every week, in this era... I see a bigger pass catching threat than Graham in Gronk.. Plus he can actually do other things.

 

Gronk is like.. the 'perfect' TE. Everyone should aspire to be and play like him. Graham seems like a cheap, faulty knock off and wannabe. He does one thing well, and even that is a stretch to me. I mean, talking about how "great" he is you mention his TDs and that's it... Eh. Nice... I am not very impressed honestly. You score TDs, you make a nice catch once in a while.. cool. Whatever. haha.

Personally, I would prefer a player less capable as a pass catcher and more capable in every other area compared to a guy like Graham. I would take that other player 10x out of 10 without questioning it. I will take the Gronks, Wittens, Olsens every... single... time...

I had a cheap Jimmy Graham knock off for a long time, his name was Jermichael Finley and i felt he stunted our offense no matter how big of a "mismatch" ESPN told you he was.

[Dutch 874]

No where did I compare Graham with Gronk. Gronk is the best TE in the league. Also, I'm not frustrated that you value blocking. That's great when a players strength is versatility in their game. However, to act as if "pfft, what Graham is doing is ordinary." and in all reality he's writing history. The level that Graham is playing at and how he impacts the game out weighs what the other lower tier TEs bring even with their versatility. TDs say so. But apparently to you, scoring TDs isn't impressive. lol for trying to downplay the very objective and purpose of an offensive game plan which is scoring TDs. Graham only excels in the entire objective of an offense What's even funnier is mentioning Jermicheal Finley at all.

[Favre4Ever+ 4,476]

I am not saying you compared them. I am saying I am... I am looking at what Gronk can do and does do... And if we are talking about Graham as "By Far" the clear #2, he better kinda sorta stack up. And he doesn't, IMO.

 

He made so much of an impact that the Saints looked horrible and decided to trade him. He's put some good years up, no doubt... But other years are just kinda like.. "Ya, OK". It's not that I want to undervalue him scoring TDs, but like I said before... When that's the ONLY thing he has. I just, I don't know, want more. Bubba Franks was a RZ monster for Brett Favre... great dude, but I am not saying he is one of the best ever or even of that decade / era.

I just look for a lot more out of players than one facet to their game. Maybe that's just something that has been forced onto me, being a Packers fan.. Watching Mike and Ted draft WRs and make them learn every position on the field (Both outside spots and slot responsibilities). Watching them draft lineman and move them all around. Watching them draft DBs and moving them from CB to S or some such thing.

I value versatility a lot. I just do. It's part of the reason why I've never been in love with AP as much as most people. Don't get me wrong, I have said before... Dude is GREAT. One of the best runners I've seen. But I would take a guy like JC all day.