Steelers @ Bengals

[oochymp 2,393]

but also...McCarron set him up.

I was talking about this during the game, when did this attitude disappear? I remember growing up you'd see hits like that and the response was "QB should have seen him, you can't do that to your receivers" now we expect defenders to stop on a dime and risk letting receivers run around them. I don't necessarily disagree with the idea behind these penalties, but I don't like that it's removing the responsibility from the quarterbacks to be careful about where they're leading their receivers.

[56AceInDaPlace 110]

At the end of the day I'm going off stats, facts and the eye test as well.

 

Dalton 1 TD 6 Ints in the playoffs

 

Marvin Lewis 0-7 playoff record ( 0-5 w/ Bengals )

 

Those numbers dont look good at all. You would expect with the caliber of the team they have, they would have at LEAST 1 win. Add in Dalton stats and it's not a big secret as to why they can't win. If Dalton gets praise for MVP talk based on the year he had, he can get the blame for the poor play in the playoffs prior as well.

 

That's the way I see it. The Bengals are ok with Lewis leading them to a 1 and done. I can understand 2-3 years ( or times ) of having that outcome. But when it's been 5 straight, you have to wonder at that point. When is enough? Especially at how they lost this one!

 

Steelers had a 3rd string rb in. And an injured Ben. Still couldn't win. They imploded at the end.

 

I would have a higher standard for the team, and I'm not even a fan. I understand how talented they are but the QB play and head coach job, hasn't shown they can win when it matters. How can you argue that is my question?

[Cherry 1,302]

I can completely back removing Marvin from the HC job after the way they lost that game. He's not a coach who can keep his guys composed. He's a bystander to a very talented team. He gets good talent, but he can't manage it well. If he gets the axe I wouldn't be upset at all.

 

Dalton however is a much different case. As you said his stats are somewhat pathetic in the playoffs. Again I'd argue the sample size is too small and he is still developing. I really truly think Hue Jackson fixed him, at least for now. The first season the Bengals shouldn't have made the playoffs. They were a 4-12 team before that year and they lacked talent. I can't blame him for that loss, along with the fact he was a rookie QB. The following season the Bengals were once again average with talent and arguably overperformed.

 

In season 3 when they lost to the Chargers it was an inexcusable loss. The Bengals were insane that year and Dalton should shoulder the blame for that loss. He cost the Bengals the season that year. Season 4 was a bit interesting. The Bengals were so banged up that I really don't fault him for losing to the Colts. He played a very solid game against them but just had nobody to throw to.

 

Season 5 obviously he wasn't involved in the playoff game, but he had an MVP level season before the injury, and proved he wouldn't choke in big games. The 17-point comeback on the Seahawks would back the conclusion he isn't a choke artist, if that's what we're going to argue about. The two losses under Dalton were caused by a defensive collapse against the Cardinals and a complete failure of offense (outside Dalton) against the Texans.

 

I just can't see the argument for trying to move on from Andy after the season he's had and the amount he's developed. It just doesn't make sense. If he loses another playoff game or two I can see it. That's where it just goes a bit over the top. Right now I'd argue it's more about bad luck than Andy being shit.

[Zack_of_Steel+ 3,014]

https://usatthebiglead.files.wordpress.com/2016/01/capture_20160109_214003.jpg?w=1000&h=600&crop=1

 

This is illegal by the current NFL rules. If you want to argue it should be legal, okay. But currently this is not legal and it should not be framed as such.

 

No, you can't take a screenshot and call it illegal, that's bullshit. You're completely ignoring the the facet of the rule that accounts for incidental contact, as I stated in my original post. This would be like you taking a picture of someone's hand inside a facemask, but in real time it was there for a split second and unintentionally. That's an incidental facemask that used to be 5 yards, but is now legal. Same situation here.

 

If Hill had been running forward and Shazier had hit him, you'd absolutely be correct. The fact that he turned into it makes it incidental. Watch this in full speed and tell me his helmet is going to wreck him if he doesn't turn at the last second.

 

https://twitter.com/TheCauldron/status/686030842171375617?ref_src=twsrc^tfw

 

 

 

 

 

 

Also:

https://twitter.com/colin_dunlap/status/686532037315051520?ref_src=twsrc^tfw

https://twitter.com/gerrydulac/status/686608924078903296?ref_src=twsrc^tfw

Edited January 11, 2016 by Zack_of_Steel

[oochymp 2,393]

apparently I'm mistaken about everyone agreeing that Shazier's hit was a penalty so I'll give my thoughts more fully:

 

I'm not sure whether Bernard would be considered a defenseless player, but based on the league's definition I'd lean toward no. This one falls under another section, again I'll go to the rules:

 

RULE 12: ARTICLE 8. INITIATING CONTACT WITH THE CROWN OF THE HELMET

It is a foul if a runner or tackler initiates forcible contact by delivering a blow with the top/crown of his helmet against an opponent when both players are clearly outside the tackle box (an area extending from tackle to tackle and from three yards beyond the line of scrimmage to the offensive team’s end line). Incidental contact by the helmet of a runner or tackler against an opponent shall not be a foul.

that's a rule that was added recently, and I think Shazier's hit is a pretty clear violation

[Zack_of_Steel+ 3,014]

RULE 12: ARTICLE 8. INITIATING CONTACT WITH THE CROWN OF THE HELMET

It is a foul if a runner or tackler initiates forcible contact by delivering a blow with the top/crown of his helmet against an opponent when both players are clearly outside the tackle box (an area extending from tackle to tackle and from three yards beyond the line of scrimmage to the offensive team’s end line). Incidental contact by the helmet of a runner or tackler against an opponent shall not be a foul.

This is exactly what I was responding to in my last post.

[oochymp 2,393]

This is exactly what I was responding to in my last post.

I don't see how Shazier leading with the crown of his helmet was incidental at all, you could convince me that the fact that he hit Bernard's facemask was incidental, but Shazier lowered his head to initiate contact through the crown of his own helmet, which is exactly what that rule speaks to

[Thanatos 2,847]

Shazier clearly lowers his head, Zack. He is intending to lead with his helmet. How is that incidental?

[Zack_of_Steel+ 3,014]

I don't see how Shazier leading with the crown of his helmet was incidental at all, you could convince me that the fact that he hit Bernard's facemask was incidental, but Shazier lowered his head to initiate contact through the crown of his own helmet, which is exactly what that rule speaks to

If Hill doesn't turn, the crown of the helmet doesn't have contact. It's pretty clear that if Hill doesn't turn, Shazier's helmet ends up on the left side of his body, or around his back.

 

Some frame by frames to illustrate. Notice that as he starts to lower his head and make the tackle, Hill is turned sideways with his back to the sideline. Once he turned, he put his body in the way of the crown of the helmet. Incidental contact. Also notice how Shazier's head still ended up on the left side of his body. Because that's how he was aiming before the last second turn.

[oochymp 2,393]

Because who would guess that Bernard might turn downfield?

[Sarge+ 3,436]

By the way, for all the bitching about Porter being on the field:

 

[Zack_of_Steel+ 3,014]

^I linked to that in my giant post earlier.

 

 

Because who would guess that Bernard might turn downfield?

What a pussy fucking statement. You know I'm right and won't admit it. Fucking please.

 

If he has to guess in miliseconds whether the guy is going to turn into his hit, it's incidental contact.

[oochymp 2,393]

sorry for the short (probably overly) snarky post, I was posting from my phone, but you're supposed to look while you tackle, he put his head down well before contact and that's what that rule I cited was designed to reduce

 

also, peripherally related but hilarious: Vontaze Burfict, Pacman Jones Being Evaluated Under the NFL’s Dipshit Protocol — SportsPickle — Medium

[Zack_of_Steel+ 3,014]

Sure, they've promoted the "heads up" movement, but poor tackling form is not inherently against the rules, it's more about intent. Like I said, unfortunate that Gio got destroyed, but I believe that the hit was an accident.

 

Also, something that should be noted is that the "official" rule book that the NFL releases is an abbreviated one compared to what the referees actually have. The rules are verbatim the same, but in the full version there are examples and clarifications. Back around 2007 or so someone used to post links to the leaks on Steeler Nation, but they've disappeared as the NFL started cracking down on people for "proprietary information violations".

 

The reason I mention this is, in these versions they expand upon what constitutes "incidental contact" and other such vague items.

 

 

EDIT: Since it seems some people didn't look into the links regarding the Porter situation, here's video of the entire thing from different angles.

 

-8:23 - 8:36, you can see Porter standing behind the trainers and AB, then Burfict walks up, talks to Porter, then goes to Brown and puts his hand on his shoulder.

-Trainer pushes Burfict away and his arm nicks Peezy in the head.

-Porter (still calm) talks to the ref, Wallace Gilberry locates Porter, nearly goes through a ref to get to him, and bumps him from behind into the circle of Bengals players.

-Gilberry follows through by getting into Porter's face, Burfict briefly grabs Porter's jacket, and then Pacman comes from nowhere and tries going through three refs to punch Porter.

 

EDIT2: I accidentally fucked up that first link, but it's fixed now.

Edited January 12, 2016 by Zack_of_Steel

[DBR96A 87]

 

Keep your head on a swivel and if Vontaze is such a dirty player you'd be aware of that so you'd at least be able to react to something like that happening.

 

Tis quite amusing that ZOS wants to take shots simply because I wanted the Bengals to win a game over the Steelers which they actually did..winning at beating themselves. Pittsburgh has proved nothing and has earned nothing so far being in a postseason they shouldn't be in? Is Ben an underrated elite QB? Absolutely. Did I used to not mind the Steelers a few years ago when they still had Polamalu, Clark, Ward, and Taylor? Absolutely. Has that perception changed now with dirty bastards like Shazier, Gay (Never liked him), DeCastro, and a few others? Yeah.

 

God forbid me want to see AJ McCarron see a playoff victory with the Bengals and players that I actually like in Green, Vontaze, Pacman, Whitworth, Dunlap, Nelson and numerous others. I should be taken to Mt. Calvary just like the last perfect man to walk the earth.

 

Anyway, this all comes down to the Steelers are not a good team, with an abysmal defense skating by because another team beat themselves more than the Steelers could beat them.

 

You can rage and stuff all you want, but with a hobbling Ben and a concussed AB you're not going to have fun in Denver. Even with the most overrated playoff QB of all-time starting, you'll find a way to lose and your already overachieving playoff run will be over just like that.

 

Wow, the Steelers have fucked your mind, haven't they? You say they haven't proven or earned anything? Bitch, they're in the playoffs, like it or not! And they got there in spite of a) their elite franchise QB missing four games in the middle of the season, b) their backup QB missing the entire season, c) their third-string QB and an emergency QB each starting multiple games, d) their All-Pro C missing the entire season, e) their All-Pro RB missing the last eight games of the season, f) their starting LT missing the last 10 games of the season, g) their #2 WR being suspended for four games and missing a fifth due to injury, h) only three of the 11 starters on offense playing all 16 games, i) two of their four best players on defense each missing multiple games, j) two PKs missing the entire season, l) a third PK missing more FG attempts than he made and directly contributing to a loss before getting cut, m) having the seventh-highest Injury Impact to Team of all teams in the NFL (second-highest among playoff teams), and n) having the hardest schedule of all playoff teams in the AFC based on their opponents' combined winning percentage this season. So if you don't think they've proven or earned anything, then seriously, go fuck yourself.

 

By the way, if you want to bitch about the refs, then bitch about them letting A.J. Green get away with a false start right before he scored the go-ahead TD for the Bengals.

 

 

The TD clearly shouldn't have counted, but it ultimately doesn't matter to me since the Steelers won the fucking game anyway, despite the refs spotting the Bengals the lead with less than two minutes left in the game.

[Thanatos 2,847]

Oh puhlease. AJ Green making a great play on the ball isn't nullified by a 5-yard penalty that wasn't seen. Little stuff like that happens all the time.

[theMileHighGuy 656]

Stillers fans

[DBR96A 87]

Oh puhlease. AJ Green making a great play on the ball isn't nullified by a 5-yard penalty that wasn't seen. Little stuff like that happens all the time.

 

Well people have sure done a lot of crying about "teh rulez" lately, so I figured I'd show A.J. Green breaking a rule and getting away with it to illustrate how not one-sided the officiating was. By the letter of the law, they should have been moved back to the edge of FG range instead of being awarded six points and the lead. If that was Antonio Brown, the wailing and gnashing of teeth would never end.

[Cherry 1,302]

 

Well people have sure done a lot of crying about "teh rulez" lately, so I figured I'd show A.J. Green breaking a rule and getting away with it to illustrate how not one-sided the officiating was. By the letter of the law, they should have been moved back to the edge of FG range instead of being awarded six points and the lead. If that was Antonio Brown, the wailing and gnashing of teeth would never end.

Really it wouldn't. A false start is a lot more forgivable than a no-call on a hit that was leading with the crown of the helmet. The difference between a non-reviewed play that came out as a false start 2 days later is much different from something that pissed Bengals fans off so much they started throwing beer onto the field.

[oochymp 2,393]

 

Well people have sure done a lot of crying about "teh rulez" lately, so I figured I'd show A.J. Green breaking a rule and getting away with it to illustrate how not one-sided the officiating was. By the letter of the law, they should have been moved back to the edge of FG range instead of being awarded six points and the lead. If that was Antonio Brown, the wailing and gnashing of teeth would never end.

they weren't "awarded" six points because of a missed call, they earned six points through the play:

 

 

Sure, you could say they were given an opportunity they shouldn't have been given, but they still had to make that play to earn the points. That false start did nothing to give the Bengals an advantage. It didn't make the Steelers blow the coverage on Green, I doubt any of the Steelers even noticed, nobody reacted. Was it a violation? sure, but it didn't change the play at all. It was certainly much less egregious than calls that are routinely missed and wasn't nearly as significant as any of the hits we've talked about in this thread.

Edited January 15, 2016 by oochymp

[butta54 371]

Umm.....This game has been over for almost a week

[Vin+ 3,121]

 

Bengals WLB Vontaze Burfict (suspended) admitted he needs to change the way he plays.

"I play hard. Sometimes it gets me in trouble," Burfict said. "My style of play is aggressive, and [the game has] changed, and I have to change with it, and that play right there, I think if I wasn't number 55, I wouldn't have got flagged." Burfict is referring to the vicious hit he laid on a defenseless Antonio Brown at the end of Cincinnati's Wild Card loss. The hit would have drawn a flag regardless of who delivered it, but Burfict's history contributed to the league suspending him three games following the incident. It is great Burfict recognizes he needs to change, but it will take more than words to repair his reputation.

Source: ESPN

[oochymp 2,393]

I was with him until this:

I think if I wasn't number 55, I wouldn't have got flagged.

 

like the ESPN summary said his history may have contributed to the three game suspension, but the hit would have gotten flagged regardless of who gave it