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Bangy

Great Britain Leaves The European Union

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Which is probably for the best. Brexit is precisely why the public should be kept away from policy making.

Yeah democracy is bad because I don't like the end result :^)

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I don't think I agree with that. Brexit was a case of the people voting the wrong way, but there have been many cases where popular votes have overridden what the government wanted. Look at all the states with gay marriage legalized by popular vote.

 

Brexit is bad, but I don't think it would be right for this vote to have happened and then be ignored.

Finally we agree on something Blots. :p

 

Regardless of the results, the key to a truly free society is to allow people to govern themselves. If they vote for something and the vote passes, then no matter what the issue is, that should be what goes (assuming it doesn't infringe on the rights of other citizens.)

 

As much as I disagree with Bernie's policies if he were to have become the president I would accept it without a second thought. Uprooting the will of the people for the belief you're protecting them is the first step towards an authoritarian government.

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The vote wasn't wrong to do in the slightest. The majority of the country we're at a point where they felt change was needed. Now whether this happens is interesting to see as I don't see there being any way of an appeal winning.

 

I'll be honest the hard brexit would likely have fucked us harder than Trump being president. I voted stay but a soft brexit will help with EU trade and world wide.

 

People forget that the shitter jobs that the people on benefit don't even want to the NHS need foreign workers as they power so many industries in the UK that it be a disaster to go hard brexit.

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Finally we agree on something Blots. :p

 

What are you talking about? We're both voting for Hillary. Granted, I'm not as passionate of a supporter as you seem to be, but we still like the same candidate.

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What are you talking about? We're both voting for Hillary. Granted, I'm not as passionate of a supporter as you seem to be, but we still like the same candidate.

But of course :yep:

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I will say, I think it was wrong the way it was worded. The vote shouldn't have been on "Should we leave the EU?" It should've been "should we leave the EU on this date, and do x with our trade agreements and y with our borders...etc" With a decision this massive, the full actions the government would take if it passed should've been outlined.

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Guest Phailadelphia

I don't think I agree with that. Brexit was a case of the people voting the wrong way, but there have been many cases where popular votes have overridden what the government wanted. Look at all the states with gay marriage legalized by popular vote.

 

Brexit is bad, but I don't think it would be right for this vote to have happened and then be ignored.

I won't dispute #2. My point was it shouldn't have been allowed in the first place.

 

With regard to #1, I have mixed emotions about the popular vote. On key issues like Brexit, it's impossible for the general population to learn and fully understand both the political and economic implications of leaving the EU. Moreover, if you recall, immediately after the vote there was a heavy sense of regret coming out of Britain with many voters saying things like "we wanted to make a statement so we voted in favor of it but we didn't think it would actually pass." Brexit is a classic example of cutting off the nose to spite the face. The popular vote resulted in a wildly irresponsible decision.

 

To parlay this into the US system of federalism, the states have a rich history of suppressing civil rights and liberties of citizens, where federal institutions like the SCOTUS have been instrumental in steering the country towards moral ends despite the protest of the general population. Additionally, a system in which the popular vote is allowed to determine issues equivalent to Brexit only serves to undermine our elected officials, who we elect to make these decisions on our behalf and a court system we put in place to serve as a check on those elected officials. Theoretically, the popular vote doesn't--and shouldn't--have a place in this system.

 

I think I've said this here before, but between Brexit & Donald Trump, 2016 has not been a good year for democracy. They are stark examples of its dangers & limitations.

 

To sum it up, people's (speaking very generally here, not about anyone specifically) blind faith in the popular vote as an infallible public good is unnerving to me.

 

Edit: And I don't expect this to be a popular opinion here. I'm still struggling with it myself but as of today that's how I feel about it.

Edited by Phailadelphia
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I won't disagree that public vote is a dangerous thing. It is wrong that someone who researches candidates be on an equal playing field as someone who does not. It is also wrong that someone who studied politics in school be on an equal playing field as someone who just researches candidates. That said, if you try to draw the line anywhere you're gonna face backlash. I'd be pissed if you were allowed to vote I was not. Just like some jackass who wants to build a wall would be pissed if I could vote and they could not. Let the public guide themselves and hope for the best results.

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"The right to violate the rights of the people belong to the people. In other words, when the people gave power to Hillary, or to an incomparably smaller man like Donald Trump, the responsibility belongs to the people. It belongs to no one else. That's the important point. The sin of dictatorship is that the people can push off the failures of government onto one man."

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The US has the most sophisticated and extensive system of propaganda in the history of the world. The war for your mind starts as soon as you're capable of understanding the English language. You're indoctrinated as a child by school and a constant barrage of advertisements and entertainment. Our major news networks and newspapers are owned by a handful of people. I would say it's not quite so simple as the quote you posted Razor. Our government was designed to be a plutocracy from day one. If you read anything James Maddison said in the federalist papers you would understand that. People have fought over the years for rights to participate in government and negotiate their terms of labor and payment and personal freedoms and there's a constant roll back of these rights. Innovations in propaganda have caused people to consent to these police that are against their interests.

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Guest Phailadelphia

I won't disagree that public vote is a dangerous thing. It is wrong that someone who researches candidates be on an equal playing field as someone who does not. It is also wrong that someone who studied politics in school be on an equal playing field as someone who just researches candidates. That said, if you try to draw the line anywhere you're gonna face backlash. I'd be pissed if you were allowed to vote I was not. Just like some jackass who wants to build a wall would be pissed if I could vote and they could not. Let the public guide themselves and hope for the best results.

Right. To be clear, I wasn't advocating for taking away voting rights. I believe everyone deserves the right to vote. I'm saying simply that the popular vote on matters of policy is a bad idea. We should take our elections more seriously and vote in better candidates who will address issues based on substance and expertise.

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