Twins kill mother in Saudi Arabia after she tried to stop them from joining ISIS

[Cherry 1,302]

Except they're still vastly uneducated and many of them support Sharia law. Middle East doesn't give a flying fuck about any equality or human rights.

[DonovanMcnabb for H.O.F 2,241]

I missed this post earlier, but I feel as if it should be addressed as it was probably aimed towards me, if not, then disregard.

 

 

As it is, the religion of Islam does need to reform to at least partially conform to western standards. As it is right now, the concept of Sharia Law is completely at odds with the rights and freedoms the western world currently enjoys. What the religion thought of certain institutions hundreds of years ago does not apply today. Things like beheading and amputation for committing petty crimes, or murdering people who commit anal sex...

 

The assertion that Islam needs to be reformed to conform to "Western standards" is false.

 

There are numerous examples of countries made up primarily of Muslim demographics, or that has a large group of Muslims that manages to offer freedoms that most aligns with "western worlds". And the ones that don't in many cases outside of Iran and Sadia Arabia (that's complicating in more ways then one) have many issues that have nothing to do with religion playing a role.

 

Turkey is nearly 100% Muslim, and one of the most religious nations in the world, and have a western style democracy. There are over 250 million in Indonesia, and a vast majority of them outside of a small minority manage to practice it without being intolerant of others. These examples are not perfect, but these countries in of themselves for more reasons then just religion aren't either.

 

But at a basic level this notion isn't valid. Because there are Muslims all over the world, even here in America who manage to coexist, and in many ways befriend people with far different beliefs and, at worst treat them no differently then conservative Christians, while still adhering to the principles that actually make them Muslims, not just claiming the tittle to practice violence.

 

While ISIS may be a radical terrorist group, they believe they are practicing in the Islamic faith, therefore they are. We can still write them off as nothing more than a radical sect, like the Westboro Baptist church doesn't represent the whole of Christianity, but they are Christians in a deluded perverted sense.

 

If an someone needs to justify his actions with quotes from scriptures that can be easily misinterpreted, it's because the actions and intentions aren't justified in those societies without those explanation.

 

The fact of the matter is that is not that simple, a person can claim to be a Christian, but if everything he says and does proves otherwise, then he isn't a Christian. It's no different here. Except this is worse. Because of the consequences of thinking that way has far reaching consequences on multiple fronts.

[RazorStar 4,025]

ISIS may not be Muslim in action, but if they say they are something, then they are. Because perception is reality, regardless of logic or reason. Just like when a Protestant says they're Christian, but actively make their community a worse place or fail to treat people of a different nationality with respect. They're still Christian, they're just doing a real shitty job of it.

 

As for the Turkish government, the constitution they have is built on three facets, Kemalism which is basically embracing universal suffrage, democracy, and civil and political equality for both genders. Secularism, which is straight forward enough, the separation of church and state, and modernization which is again, straight forward. It's certainly easy to see that when a country conforms to western standards, it doesn't matter what religion their people preach, there will be separation of church and state. If a person is willing to accept these compromises to their faith, then people can live acceptable lives, even if they find your life choices to be wrong. The issue with Islam (and most religions) is that when their tenets are put into law, they are simply unacceptable for modern times and go against basically everything a modernized western world would stand for.

 

If you can compromise on your faith though, then you'll do just fine. But then... I suppose you wouldn't truly be a member of your faith if you compromised on it?

[Thanatos 2,847]

Turkey also just threw a man in jail for comparing its prime minister to gollum. So there's that.

[blotsfan 2,112]

Yeah I agree with Dmac but Turkey is a pretty awful example given current events. A country like Jordan would be better.

[BwareDWare94 723]

Has anybody here read or studied the Koran? I've always been tempted to read religious texts just for context and a more thorough perspective in arguments like these, but I'd obviously have to start with the Bible since I suppose I'm a Catholic Christian, even if I'm a liberal Catholic, which really doesn't make sense.

[Favre4Ever+ 4,476]

Has anybody here read or studied the Koran? I've always been tempted to read religious texts just for context and a more thorough perspective in arguments like these, but I'd obviously have to start with the Bible since I suppose I'm a Catholic Christian, even if I'm a liberal Catholic, which really doesn't make sense.

Does it really not make much sense? The church has probably the most moderate Pope in history, or at least in recent modern times. "Liberal" may never completely happen, but it's not like there is only one type of Catholic or Christian.

Edited July 9, 2016 by Favre4Ever

[DonovanMcnabb for H.O.F 2,241]

ISIS may not be Muslim in action, but if they say they are something, then they are. Because perception is reality, regardless of logic or reason. Just like when a Protestant says they're Christian, but actively make their community a worse place or fail to treat people of a different nationality with respect. They're still Christian, they're just doing a real shitty job of it.

 

Even if I agreed with the oversimplified idiosyncratic view that "perception is reality" applies when talking about extremism and straight up terrorism, perception can and should change when challenged by reason.

 

As for the Turkish government, the constitution they have is built on three facets, Kemalism which is basically embracing universal suffrage, democracy, and civil and political equality for both genders. Secularism, which is straight forward enough, the separation of church and state, and modernization which is again, straight forward. It's certainly easy to see that when a country conforms to western standards, it doesn't matter what religion their people preach, there will be separation of church and state. If a person is willing to accept these compromises to their faith, then people can live acceptable lives, even if they find your life choices to be wrong. The issue with Islam (and most religions) is that when their tenets are put into law, they are simply unacceptable for modern times and go against basically everything a modernized western world would stand for.

 

I bought up Turkey and other places like it specifically because of their secular government.

The fact that a country made up of essentially 99% Muslim is able to live and observe their faith in a secular government country -peacefully- without compromising their faith or way of life is proof that Islam doesn't preclude people from living in a liberal society.

Even discounting such countries, the simple fact that most of the Muslims that make up the Islamic religion don't live in the Middle East, and don't speak Arabic and live in countries in Europe, America, etc, automatically makes that idea null.

If you can compromise on your faith though, then you'll do just fine. But then... I suppose you wouldn't truly be a member of your faith if you compromised on it?

 

 

This has nothing to do with compromising on your faith. It simply has to do with understanding that not everyone agrees with your religious views, and that that's OK. Something that real Muslims already know.

 

I am a Christian, I don't support same sex marriage for anyone, I don't support abortion (in most situations) for anyone, the list goes on. But I would only ever call out other Christians who do these things (and expect the same in return) because that's exactly what the Bible says to do, Christian things are for Christians. It doesn't mean we shouldn't tell the world that these things are wrong, it means we shouldn't force others to agree. And while I vote based on my faith because it is my moral code of conduct, I also understand that not everyone agrees with me, or are Christians and therefor for that reason (and others) agree with the idea of seperation of church and state, and the democratic process.

 

That same principle litterally applies for Muslims. Its no different, and you shouldn't take my word for it, look around the world at the ever growing population (and majority) of Muslims who live that way.

Edited July 9, 2016 by DonovanMcnabb for H.O.F

[Thanatos 2,847]

Has anybody here read or studied the Koran? I've always been tempted to read religious texts just for context and a more thorough perspective in arguments like these, but I'd obviously have to start with the Bible since I suppose I'm a Catholic Christian, even if I'm a liberal Catholic, which really doesn't make sense.

 

I have. If you thought the Bible had some confusing shit in it, the Quran is ten times worse.

[Cherry 1,302]

______________¶___

|religion of peace ||l |\__,__

|______________|||__|__|__|]

(@)@)*********(@)(@)**(@)

.

Edited July 15, 2016 by Chernobyl426

[blotsfan 2,112]

A higher percentage of US Gun owners are criminals than Muslims are terrorists.

[Cherry 1,302]

What's your definition of criminal? Criminal as in used a firearm with intent to kill or injure? Or criminals as in "got a DUI once but is a gun owner"

[DonovanMcnabb for H.O.F 2,241]

You were on here posting your agenda with ignorance about a matter that you knew nothing about even before the facts have come out. Again pointing fingers on an entire religion based off what seems to be, currently, a lone crazy individual who wanted nothing but to cause mayhem.

 

To this point, nothing points to this guy being a part of ISSIS, aside from a name that sounds Middle Eastern.

 

Play on playa.

Edited July 15, 2016 by DonovanMcnabb for H.O.F

[Cherry 1,302]

You were on here posting your agenda with ignorance about a matter that you knew nothing about even before the facts have come out. Again pointing fingers on an entire religion based off what seems to be, currently, a lone crazy individual who wanted nothing but to cause mayhem.

 

To this point, nothing points to this guy being a part of ISSIS, aside from a name that sounds Middle Eastern.

 

Play on playa.

Majority of the reports I've been seeing have said he was Muslim and a few have said he screamed some radical shit before being shot and killed. I refrained from saying anything earlier until more facts came out but it's looking a lot more like a radical attack than anything else at this point.

 

I find it interesting that we continue to see new ways of mass killing despite the huge crackdown on guns in Europe. Oh you want to ban guns? I'll just kill 80+ people with a truck.

[DonovanMcnabb for H.O.F 2,241]

Well IDK what sources you go to, but even here in Barcelona every news source is saying that no terrorist organization have taken credit for this, and no mosques, or Muslim leaders in Nice have ever been affiliated with him (a "Muslim" terrorist who's not even known by any leader of Islam organizations in his location).

 

But let's blame that religion for this one too, no point in waiting for actual facts.

Edited July 15, 2016 by DonovanMcnabb for H.O.F

[BwareDWare94 723]

Well IDK what sources you go to, but even here in Barcelona every news source is saying that no terrorist organization have taken credit for this, and no mosques, or Muslim leaders in Nice have ever been affiliated with him (a "Muslim" terrorist who's not even known by any leader of Islam organizations in his location).

 

But let's blame that religion for this one too, no point in waiting for actual facts.

Well, to be fair, ISIS tends to not claim attacks anymore

[Thanatos 2,847]

They claimed one like a week ago. Are you two just watching Faux News or what?