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Well if course it will be cheaper, it will be shittier.

Also Yang blatantly saying he will be fucking with doctors salaries can go get fucked, fucking douchebag.

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28 minutes ago, Omerta said:

Well if course it will be cheaper, it will be shittier.

Also Yang blatantly saying he will be fucking with doctors salaries can go get fucked, fucking douchebag.

Yang is saying they will be paid a salary instead of per patient. This is already done at plenty of hospitals to great effect.

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20 hours ago, seanbrock said:

Still don't trust Yang. I think his version of UBI is a scam to trick poor/low education/drug addicted people (and their children) into opting in for less money and phasing out social safety net programs while just raising inflation and prices on goods and services. 1000 a month is probably too much in some cases and too little in others depending on where you live. I get his argument about automation and it's absolutely correct. I'm not against UBI but I think this will hurt poor people the way he wants to do this and I just do not trust this dude one bit. I also really don't like his take on Julian Assange. 

I'm pissed that Sanders has been pretty much silent on Assange too tbh but at least he values the first amendment enough to say he shouldn't stand trial. Assange, other whistle blowers like Snowden and Manning and the first amendment are near the top as far as my issues go. I think Yang is a fucking snake and he's really smart.

I could be wrong. The only thing that gives me pause is the way he's covered in the media. People who want to stick it in the ass of poor people are generally lauded by the press but his stance on Assange is a big bugaboo for me.

 

Assange is a total and complete asshole and Yang is absolutely correct in his statement. Assange delivered some information for no other purpose than to potentially cause disruption and he should face some sort of justice for that. Just not by extradition, it sets too bad of a precedent. You guys still defending this fucker after everything that he has done is scary.

Edited by Thanatos

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39 minutes ago, Omerta said:

 

Also Yang blatantly saying he will be fucking with doctors salaries can go get fucked, fucking douchebag.

I understand how close this hits home for you so I’m not asking you to change your mind or anything ... and I love doctors. Great doctors. The best doctors. 

However, when we’re looking at the insane cost of healthcare in this country we really do need to look at the fact that we’re paying doctors more than double any other nation in world. 

Most doctors in this country end up being specialists, which is way different than any other country in the world as well. We need more general practitioners ... he’ll nurse practitioners can write scrips without supervision in most cases, IIRC... why do we need to bow to the hospital mafia exactly? 

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17 minutes ago, Thanatos said:

Yang is saying they will be paid a salary instead of per patient. This is already done at plenty of hospitals to great effect.

This should NEVER, and I mean NEVER happen. 

If certain hospitals want to do it, that is fine because their is options in the marketplace and they are still choosing to work there 

A president SHOULD NEVER mess with the wages of specific occupations, or any occupation other than minimum wage, and even the president can't do that. He is talking massive over reach here.

 

The more I read about Yang the more I can't stand his policy.

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3 minutes ago, DalaiLama4Ever said:

I understand how close this hits home for you so I’m not asking you to change your mind or anything ... and I love doctors. Great doctors. The best doctors. 

However, when we’re looking at the insane cost of healthcare in this country we really do need to look at the fact that we’re paying doctors more than double any other nation in world. 

Most doctors in this country end up being specialists, which is way different than any other country in the world as well. We need more general practitioners ... he’ll nurse practitioners can write scrips without supervision in most cases, IIRC... why do we need to bow to the hospital mafia exactly? 

The insane cost of healthcare can be dealt with in so many other areas than fucking with a doctor salary. 

 

There are 2 reasons doctors in this country deserve to make what they make.

Theyre better. You pay more for top talent, it is that simple.

The second is because their college costs more than any other profession. I had to pay down 800k in school when it was all said and done. Now that we benefit this greedy cocksucker decides she is overpaid? Fuck him. I'll vote Republican before I vote for this douche bag.

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4 minutes ago, Omerta said:

This should NEVER, and I mean NEVER happen. 

If certain hospitals want to do it, that is fine because their is options in the marketplace and they are still choosing to work there 

A president SHOULD NEVER mess with the wages of specific occupations, or any occupation other than minimum wage, and even the president can't do that. He is talking massive over reach here.

 

The more I read about Yang the more I can't stand his policy.

Healthcare is a right. It should not be a privately-owned, for-profit industry. I know you and I don't see eye to eye on this, but that's where Yang is coming from.

And @Favre Yang would absolutely beat Trump, because he pulls from both sides of the aisle.

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The only part Yang has right about healthcare is that he will keep private insurance around. He is hoping nobody will use it but when all the best doctors are in the private sector it won't be a mystery. He can get fucked.

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7 minutes ago, Omerta said:

The insane cost of healthcare can be dealt with in so many other areas than fucking with a doctor salary. 

 

There are 2 reasons doctors in this country deserve to make what they make.

Theyre better. You pay more for top talent, it is that simple.

The second is because their college costs more than any other profession. I had to pay down 800k in school when it was all said and done. Now that we benefit this greedy cocksucker decides she is overpaid? Fuck him. I'll vote Republican before I vote for this douche bag.

You'll help the GOP who uses 9/11 as a political bludgeon to get things passed, shits all over seniors and healthcare, refuses to even let us debate any election security bills (despite the fact we have proof Russia interfered in 2016), and denies the fact that climate change exists, in order to keep your AR-15s and your doctor's salaries intact. You got some weird priorities, bud. I get having lines in the sand, you just draw them in some weird places.

Also, doctors are not always better than other countries. And the average American doctor is certainly not twice as good as the average first world country's doctor.  We pay out the nose because of the hospitals and insurances collusion.

I do agree school for doctors is fucked up expensive, which is why if you actually read what Yang said here, he's not saying existing doctor's salaries would be enforced this way. He recognizes that issue. He's saying going forward, this is how it would be. Making education more accessible for everyone is also a key part of his platform here. (Also you guys would get an extra 2k/mo from UBI as well, that applies to everyone, not just the poor people.)

Edited by Thanatos

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7 minutes ago, Thanatos said:

You'll help the GOP who uses 9/11 as a political bludgeon to get things passed, shits all over seniors and healthcare, and denies the fact that climate change exists, in order to keep your AR-15s and your doctor's salaries intact. You got some weird priorities, bud. I get having lines in the sand, you just draw them in some weird places.

I do agree school for doctors is fucked up expensive, which is why if you actually read what Yang said here, he's not saying existing doctor's salaries would be enforced this way. He recognizes that issue. He's saying going forward, this is how it would be. Making education more accessible for everyone is also a key part of his platform here.

I absolutely would.

I don't understand why keeping what is granted to me in the bill of rights, and wanting to my wife to reap the benefits of her 2 decades of school is an odd priority.

The fact a bunch of liberal douchebags think she shouldn't disgusts me. To the point I will make a deal with the devil just to give them the finger.

You know we always talk about the American dream dying, and a part of it nobody talks about is because all these socialist cunts take from people in the middle class who have lived their life right just to give it to somebody else. It's bullshit and I will bit Republican the rest of my days until the Democrats unfuck themselves.

Sure I am biased but my wife has worked harder than any motherfucker here or running for president to get where she is at and it's appaling to hear how many people think she should be penalized for it.

Edited by Omerta

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2 minutes ago, Omerta said:

I absolutely would.

I don't understand why keeping what is granted to me in the bill of rights, and wanting to my wife to reap the benefits of her 2 decades of school is an odd priority.

The fact a bunch of liberal douchebags think she shouldn't disgusts me. To the point I will make a deal with the devil just to give them the finger.

You know we always talk about the American dream dying, and a part of it nobody talks about is because all these socialist cunts take from people in the middle class who have lived their life right just to give it to somebody else. It's bullshit and I will bit Republican the rest of my days until the Democrats unfuck themselves.

Sure I am biased but my wife has worked harder than any motherfucker here or running for president to get where she is at and it's appealing to hear how many people think she should be penalized for it.

Except, as I said, she wouldnt be. At all. It would be new doctors. So you'd fuck the entire world over to keep your assault rifles- which are absolutely not granted by the 2nd amendment- and your $$. Got it.

Edited by Thanatos

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3 minutes ago, Thanatos said:

Except, as I said, she wouldnt be. At all. It would be new doctors. So you'd fuck the entire world over to keep your guns and your $$. Got it.

Why should I care about them. It is obvious they don't care about me. People shouldn't ask for what they are not willing to give.

 

So new doctors will join a profession where the make half of their contemporaries? Ha, yeah. That will happen.

Edited by Omerta

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Just now, Omerta said:

Why should I care about them. It is obvious they don't care about me. People shouldn't ask for what they are not willing to give.

 

So new doctors will join a profession where the make half of their contemporaries? Ha, yeah. That will happen.

When the schooling for it costs a lot less you'd have more doctors entering the field, I assume would be the idea. You'd still be making a lot of money. I think most people who go into the health industry do it to help people, not make a million dollars.

Forgot you have zero empathy for others, my bad. Let me try a different tack. You care about the world you will be leaving your kids at all, then?

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Just now, Thanatos said:

When the schooling for it costs a lot less you'd have more doctors entering the field, I assume would be the idea. You'd still be making a lot of money. I think most people who go into the health industry do it to help people, not make a million dollars.

Forgot you have zero empathy for others, my bad. Let me try a different tack. You care about the world you will be leaving your kids at all, then?

I have zero empathy versus people who don't care how their bullshit effects me. Pot meet kettle. 

There is a zero sum game here. Once you begin trying to take things that belong to me two things can happen.

I let it happen and hope you make good on your promise to help the whole wide world. Historically this has never worked no matter how much we try. More money to the government means worse deficits, history shows this with a 100% certainty.

Or I fight back with my money and my vote and wait until a more sensible solution or candidate is found.

And don't gaslight me with this climate change shit. It's a problem and there are Republicans who acknowledge it. None of them are running for president, but looking at the numbers if America is the only country to drop out of the Paris agreement we will be responsible for .3 Celsius in 2100.

Yes I'm willing to make sure my kids don't become destitute so we can all feel good about sticking it to millionaires because,"yay liberalism" for something that won't be solved with any bullshit proposal out their right now.

 

ESPECIALLY considering the people who are proposing these are so fucking stupid it is bewildering. When they rubber stamp a plan from Broecker, Mann, or Hansen then I'm listening. But when we have a dumbass like AOC writing shit....fuck that. Show me an actual commitment instead of just more political handwringing.

And how does my AR contribute to climate change lol? Are they that powerful now?

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11 minutes ago, Thanatos said:

When the schooling for it costs a lot less you'd have more doctors entering the field, I assume would be the idea. You'd still be making a lot of money. I think most people who go into the health industry do it to help people, not make a million dollars.

Yes, this is the general idea Yang has. 

Stop artificially restricting the number of doctors we have (through various means). Tuition costs... Number of approved residency slots... licensing BS... And as I mentioned earlier, allowing nurse practitioners to do their jobs. Why overpay for a doctor when it is something the nurses can do? 

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10 minutes ago, Omerta said:

I have zero empathy versus people who don't care how their bullshit effects me. Pot meet kettle. 

There is a zero sum game here. Once you begin trying to take things that belong to me two things can happen.

I let it happen and hope you make good on your promise to help the whole wide world. Historically this has never worked no matter how much we try. More money to the government means worse deficits, history shows this with a 100% certainty.

Or I fight back with my money and my vote and wait until a more sensible solution or candidate is found.

And don't gaslight me with this climate change shit. It's a problem and there are Republicans who acknowledge it. None of them are running for president, but looking at the numbers if America is the only country to drop out of the Paris agreement we will be responsible for .3 Celsius in 2100.

Yes I'm willing to make sure my kids don't become destitute so we can all feel good about sticking it to millionaires because,"yay liberalism" for something that won't be solved with any bullshit proposal out their right now.

 

ESPECIALLY considering the people who are proposing these are so fucking stupid it is bewildering. When they rubber stamp a plan from Broecker, Mann, or Hansen then I'm listening. But when we have a dumbass like AOC writing shit....fuck that. Show me an actual commitment instead of just more political handwringing.

And how does my AR contribute to climate change lol? Are they that powerful now?

Not saying your AR contributes to climate change? Not sure where you got that from. I'm just pointing out you're supporting by far the worse of the two parties because they agree with you on keeping your military grade weaponry.

All I hear is "This won't solve it, this won't solve it," etc etc. When A) it's worked plenty of times elsewhere and you have zero evidence it wont work here and B) the GOP isn't putting forward anything at all to deal with the problem.

The GOP is never going to do anything about climate change, half their money comes from big oil.

The idea is to lead. America not being in the agreement means we're not part of the discussion at all. It wasn't a great agreement, let's not kid ourselves here. But the idea is that we need to part of the discussion and we're not right now. Hell, as far as I know, Trump still thinks climate change is a hoax invented by the Chinese.

Your kids won't become destitute, quit hyperbolizing. 

Historically it has worked beautifully in like, oh i don't know, literally every other first world country in the world right now. 

Gaslight? It's ironic you use that word when its Trump and the GOP's side job at this point. Also don't think you're using that word correctly. The GOP does nothing on climate change. Trump put a climate change denier in charge of the EPA. If you re-elect Trump, it's just going to get worse.

AOC is taking up what seems to be insane proposals because we are close to running out of time. I don't agree with everything she says, to be clear, but I understand why she is saying it. This is an imminent crisis in need of a solution. And if we're gonna talk ridiculousness, the right has plenty of ridiculous people, like the congressman who doesn't want background checks because then he couldn't loan guns to his friends. AOC is just in their heads 24/7, because she is hardcore focused on 24/7 by Fox News and the right because she scares the shit out of them and the older generation who watches them.

Edited by Thanatos

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7 minutes ago, Thanatos said:

Not saying your AR contributes to climate change? Not sure where you got that from. I'm just pointing out you're supporting by far the worse of the two parties because they agree with you on keeping your military grade weaponry.

All I hear is "This won't solve it, this won't solve it," etc etc. When A) it's worked plenty of times elsewhere and you have zero evidence it wont work here and B) the GOP isn't putting forward anything at all to deal with the problem.

The GOP is never going to do anything about climate change, half their money comes from big oil.

The idea is to lead. America not being in the agreement means we're not part of the discussion at all. It wasn't a great agreement, let's not kid ourselves here. But the idea is that we need to part of the discussion and we're not right now. Hell, as far as I know, Trump still thinks climate change is a hoax invented by the Chinese.

Your kids won't become destitute, quit hyperbolizing. 

Historically it has worked beautifully in like, oh i don't know, literally every other first world country in the world right now. 

Gaslight? It's ironic you use that word when its Trump and the GOP's side job at this point. Also don't think you're using that word correctly. The GOP does nothing on climate change. Trump put a climate change denier in charge of the EPA. If you re-elect Trump, it's just going to get worse.

AOC is taking up what seems to be insane proposals because we close to running out of time. The Right has plenty of ridiculous people, like the congressman who doesn't want background checks because then he couldn't loan guns to his friends. AOC is just spent time on 24/7 by Fox News and the right because she scares the shit out of them and the older generation who watches them.

Ok I'll stop hyperbolizing if you do.

AOC scares nobody, or at least shouldn't. She is a fucking moron. Did you read the green new deal? I did. It is the most hilarious comedy script I have ever seen.

I absolutely used gaslighting correctly. You are implying I would be crazy to be ardently opposed to Yang. I am not. I would be voting against my own self interest. 

So we should just talk about climate change? There is too much talk. That's all the Paris agreement is. 

This isn't a problem for politicians to solve. It is a problem climatologists solve and politicians ruthlessly implement. But they won't because ALL OF THEM are bought orbwe would have a solution by now. Don't think for a second this is something Dems are serious about.

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Bernie has been fighting against climate change since the 80s. The Dems are absolutely serious about stopping it. As I said, whether out of the goodness of their hearts or because they make money on it, they are the only party who is actively trying to stop what is a global crisis. The GOP is actively contributing to hasten our destruction.

Gaslighting is making people believe something that happened didn't happen by denying so vehemently that you make the person question whether or not it actually did happen. Like when Trump denies making fun of a disabled reporter. Or when the abuser convinces the abused they're the ones at fault. I suppose this second definition would very loosely fit what you're claiming is going on. It's not, of course.

I am not at all saying you'd be crazy to be opposed to Yang. I'm saying you supporting the GOP over Yang- or honestly anyone else, if its for the same reason- just to throw the bird at the world is what is nuts. Correct me if I'm wrong here, but you don't actually agree with either side. Yet you're going to vote for Trump despite *knowing* he's a complete moron that could potentially help accelerate climate change and continue to fuck over the US in general, just to say fuck you to the libs. This is worse than someone who votes for Trump out of sheer ignorance. You KNOW what he is. You're too smart not to know what he is. Whether or not you admit it, voting for the GOP right now is voting for Trump and his policies. And yet because you cannot even fathom the idea of giving up your assault rifle- note that as a veteran, you'd almost certainly be exempt here, unless you have a history of mental illness or something- you're going to vote for him anyway- THAT is your line in the sand. No matter how bad the GOP is on actual real world matters that affect actual real world people, you do not care. You don't care enough, I should say.

You don't care enough about people who aren't as well-off as you can afford to be running a company and having a wife who is a doctor. This does not in the slightest mean either of you don't deserve to be well-off. The two concepts are not mutually exclusive. Nor does it mean you haven't done your part to help society. But when an opportunity is presented to prevent things like a man dying from diabetes because he has to ration his insulin, or another man who couldn't afford his cancer meds, so he chose to die with dignity instead of putting his family through bankruptcy, you balk at the idea of giving up an extra 10-15% in taxes to help those kinds of people out. Medical bankruptcy is one of the most common types of bankruptcies in the US. It is ludicrous to have to pay $8,000 to have a baby. It is insane to be charged $27,000 for an overnight stay in the ER when nothing was even done to you. Read some of the stories out there. 

40% of Americans cannot cover a $400 surprise bill, and many of these hospital visits are just that. On top of that, even for people who do have insurance, many times that insurance is just trying to figure out how to get out of paying the claim and if they do figure it out, then bam, you still get hit with a bill.

You keep saying the doctors are better so we're fine with being charged more. Where does it end there? Doctors should, at least I would hope, keep on getting better. Should we keep on getting charged more? If they are 10 times better than everyone else, should we be charged ten times as much as we are now? Society has a vested interest in making sure the population is healthy, not the least of which reason is because its less expensive in the long run. Making being a doctor more accessible to people by making it cost less to get that education means more doctors which drives costs down for the general public. Having the best doctors in the world does not make your healthcare system the greatest. Having great doctors and an affordable system that can cover everyone- that would be the greatest healthcare system in the world.

Edited by Thanatos

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2 minutes ago, Thanatos said:

Gaslighting is making people believe something that happened didn't happen by denying so vehemently that you make the person question whether or not it actually did happen. Like when Trump denies making fun of a disabled reporter. Or when the abuser convinces the abused they're the ones at fault. I suppose this second definition would very loosely fit what you're claiming is going on. It's not, of course.

I am not at all saying you'd be crazy to be opposed to Yang. I'm saying you supporting the GOP over Yang- or honestly anyone else, if its for the same reason- just to throw the bird at the world is what is nuts. Correct me if I'm wrong here, but you don't actually agree with either side. Yet you're going to vote for Trump despite *knowing* he's a complete moron that could potentially help accelerate climate change and continue to fuck over the US in general, just to say fuck you to the libs. This is worse than someone who votes for Trump out of sheer ignorance. You KNOW what he is. You're too smart not to know what he is. Whether or not you admit it, voting for the GOP right now is voting for Trump and his policies. And yet because you cannot even fathom the idea of giving up your assault rifle- note that as a veteran, you'd almost certainly be exempt here, unless you have a history of mental illness or something- you're going to vote for him anyway- THAT is your line in the sand. No matter how bad the GOP is on actual real world matters that affect actual real world people, you do not care. You don't care enough, I should say.

You don't care enough about people who aren't as well-off as you can afford to be running a company and having a wife who is a doctor. This does not in the slightest mean either of you don't deserve to be well-off. The two concepts are not mutually exclusive. Nor does it mean you haven't done your part to help society. But when an opportunity is presented to prevent things like a man dying from diabetes because he has to ration his insulin, or another man who couldn't afford his cancer meds, so he chose to die with dignity instead of putting his family through bankruptcy, you balk at the idea of giving up an extra 10-15% in taxes to help those kinds of people out. Medical bankruptcy is one of the most common types of bankruptcies in the US. It is ludicrous to have to pay $8,000 to have a baby. It is insane to be charged $27,000 for an overnight stay in the ER when nothing was even done to you. Read some of the stories out there. 

40% of Americans cannot cover a $400 surprise bill, and many of these hospital visits are just that. On top of that, even for people who do have insurance, many times that insurance is just trying to figure out how to get out of paying the claim and if they do figure it out, then bam, you still get hit with a bill.

You keep saying the doctors are better so we're fine with being charged more. Where does it end there? Doctors should, at least I would hope, keep on getting better. Should we keep on getting charged more? If they are 10 times better than everyone else, should we be charged ten times as much as we are now? Society has a vested interest in making sure the population is healthy, not the least of which reason is because its less expensive in the long run. Making being a doctor more accessible to people by making it cost less to get that education means more doctors which drives costs down for the general public. Having the best doctors in the world does not make your healthcare system the greatest. Having great doctors and an affordable system that can cover everyone- that would be the greatest healthcare system in the world.

gaslight
[ˈɡaslīt]VERB
gaslighting (present participle)
1.)manipulate (someone) by psychological means into questioning their own sanity.
 
No I cant stand either side. And how do I know none of the rest of the people running are complete morons? This is a legit question because I think bernie, Kamala, Warren, are of average intelligence, Biden is certainly below at the moment, Im not sure where to put Yang because he says really dumb shit for a smart person. The GOP-yeah they are all stupid. I do like Dan Crenshaw though. If there was a veteran exemption and taking it away from people who arent trained THEN MAYBE, but I am sure there are civilians out there who are qualified and I dont think his rights are any less important than mine. So if neither party is particular intelligent and one party cant stand me because I am a straight, white, rich, male why do they deserve my vote over teh idiot bully who wants one more person in his gang? This encompasses the entire problem. Neither party is doing anything to earn my vote.
 
It would cost FAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAR more than 10 to 15%. Anybody who tells you that is full of shit. Consider this, North CArolina thought about single payer, once the person who proposed it figured out how much it would cost, they killed their own bill. IT would have been twice the state budget. California had it on the table, until they realized it would cost 400 billion dollars. The medicare tax we pay right now is projected to run out 3 years faster than we thought so taxes for it are going to increase it now to cover the small percentage it covers now. We are struggling to pay for "Medicare for Some" what do you think "Medicare for All" is going to cost.
 
AS for the hospital stays or the $27000 dollar ER visit when nothing was done, or the insulin, none of those are doctors. The funny part is the thing you listed that does require a doctor was the cheapest thing you mentioned with having a baby. That should tell you doctors are not the problem. I have given you 5 ways we could cut our medical expenses by 60%, and could actually be done by the president alone, but you still want to have a medicare for all system we cant pay for.
 
AS for the insurance company just trying to get out of paying the claim, is anecdotal evidence on your part that there is no proof of other than people who who say that stuff. The only time that is true is when you go out of network, but as far as you getting sick, going to the doctor and that dirty insurance guy trying to stiff you is more fantasy than fact, although it does happen.
 
You know what also makes a healthy population, non smoker, non alcoholics, and people who dont eat themselves into oblivion. 40% of the country is obese.  Roughly 20% are smokers, and 15 million people are alcoholics. That shit is expensive in the long run, so if you have a medicare for all that requires people to make progress on that before we foot the bill for the literal *THOUSANDS* of diseases those things cause. I am not down for paying for peoples poor choices. I shouldnt have to pay for your lung cancer when you have smoked for 40 years. I shouldnt have to pay for your heart transplant, when you have been obese because you refuse to change your lifestyle. Ironically they dont give obese people hearts and do you know why, because medical professionals realize they are a bad bet. Now this isnt to be a dick, if you are happy being fat, man, do you. You want to smoke a pack a day, do you, but people shouldnt have to pay the consequences of your shit choices.
 
If you want to exclude self inflicted medical conditions then we can start talking medicare for the rest.
 
Most people dont do medical school because of the cost of being a doctor. It is a well known fact being a doctor more than pays for itself. It is the AT MINIMUM 12 year commitment in most cases that turns people off. IF you want to be a surgeon add 3 years. Most people dont want a 20 year commitment. Most people would take a 4 year degree that would run up 800 in debt if after that 4 years they were making close to 500K . The math is simple, it is the commitment. So it is not a money thing in most cases.
 
Nobody has a great healthcare system right now. Ill take my plan over medicare for all.
 
 
 

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45 minutes ago, Omerta said:
gaslight
[ˈɡaslīt]VERB
gaslighting (present participle)
1.)manipulate (someone) by psychological means into questioning their own sanity.
 
No I cant stand either side. And how do I know none of the rest of the people running are complete morons? This is a legit question because I think bernie, Kamala, Warren, are of average intelligence, Biden is certainly below at the moment, Im not sure where to put Yang because he says really dumb shit for a smart person. The GOP-yeah they are all stupid. I do like Dan Crenshaw though. If there was a veteran exemption and taking it away from people who arent trained THEN MAYBE, but I am sure there are civilians out there who are qualified and I dont think his rights are any less important than mine. So if neither party is particular intelligent and one party cant stand me because I am a straight, white, rich, male why do they deserve my vote over teh idiot bully who wants one more person in his gang? This encompasses the entire problem. Neither party is doing anything to earn my vote.
 
It would cost FAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAR more than 10 to 15%. Anybody who tells you that is full of shit. Consider this, North CArolina thought about single payer, once the person who proposed it figured out how much it would cost, they killed their own bill. IT would have been twice the state budget. California had it on the table, until they realized it would cost 400 billion dollars. The medicare tax we pay right now is projected to run out 3 years faster than we thought so taxes for it are going to increase it now to cover the small percentage it covers now. We are struggling to pay for "Medicare for Some" what do you think "Medicare for All" is going to cost.
 
AS for the hospital stays or the $27000 dollar ER visit when nothing was done, or the insulin, none of those are doctors. The funny part is the thing you listed that does require a doctor was the cheapest thing you mentioned with having a baby. That should tell you doctors are not the problem. I have given you 5 ways we could cut our medical expenses by 60%, and could actually be done by the president alone, but you still want to have a medicare for all system we cant pay for.
 
AS for the insurance company just trying to get out of paying the claim, is anecdotal evidence on your part that there is no proof of other than people who who say that stuff. The only time that is true is when you go out of network, but as far as you getting sick, going to the doctor and that dirty insurance guy trying to stiff you is more fantasy than fact, although it does happen.
 
You know what also makes a healthy population, non smoker, non alcoholics, and people who dont eat themselves into oblivion. 40% of the country is obese.  Roughly 20% are smokers, and 15 million people are alcoholics. That shit is expensive in the long run, so if you have a medicare for all that requires people to make progress on that before we foot the bill for the literal *THOUSANDS* of diseases those things cause. I am not down for paying for peoples poor choices. I shouldnt have to pay for your lung cancer when you have smoked for 40 years. I shouldnt have to pay for your heart transplant, when you have been obese because you refuse to change your lifestyle. Ironically they dont give obese people hearts and do you know why, because medical professionals realize they are a bad bet. Now this isnt to be a dick, if you are happy being fat, man, do you. You want to smoke a pack a day, do you, but people shouldnt have to pay the consequences of your shit choices.
 
If you want to exclude self inflicted medical conditions then we can start talking medicare for the rest.
 
Most people dont do medical school because of the cost of being a doctor. It is a well known fact being a doctor more than pays for itself. It is the AT MINIMUM 12 year commitment in most cases that turns people off. IF you want to be a surgeon add 3 years. Most people dont want a 20 year commitment. Most people would take a 4 year degree that would run up 800 in debt if after that 4 years they were making close to 500K . The math is simple, it is the commitment. So it is not a money thing in most cases.
 
Nobody has a great healthcare system right now. Ill take my plan over medicare for all.
 
 
 

Uh what? It's not anecdotal at all. It's literally their job to figure out how to pay the least amount of money out on claims. It has to be. And as for the anecdotal part, I do have a bit more cause to talk here than most. I work in pharmacy. About 15-20% of my time at work is calling insurance companies to try to get them to cover something. Insurance is shady as fuck, dude. 

I actually agree with you. Self-inflicted medical conditions are out. Burden of proof that it is self-inflicted is on the insurance though.

8k is still way too much lol. 

It wouldn't be paid for JUST with the tax, but most plans that have been thought out have about that amount as an increase. Countries with medicare for all have the happiest citizens- that's a fact. We're lagging way behind here.

I call bs on the money claim. It flat out cuts out a large % of people who simply cannot afford to go into med school. You don't know for a fact that going into it means you will in fact come out a doctor. If you fail out you're just in a ton of debt.

We don't give obese people hearts because we don't have enough to go around and we'd rather not use it on someone who is likely to die either way. It's a hard choice to make, which is why donating your body to science should be mandatory, so we can have more organs to help save people who are still alive. Or at least the default option that you should have to opt out of at the DMC instead of the other way around.

Edited by Thanatos

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10 minutes ago, Thanatos said:

Uh what? It's not anecdotal at all. It's literally their job to figure out how to pay the least amount of money out on claims. It has to be. And as for the anecdotal part, I do have a bit more cause to talk here than most. I work in pharmacy. About 15-20% of my time at work is calling insurance companies to try to get them to cover something. Insurance is shady as fuck, dude. 

I actually agree with you. Self-inflicted medical conditions are out. Burden of proof that it is self-inflicted is on the insurance though.

I call bs on the money claim. It flat out cuts out a large % of people who simply cannot afford to go into med school. You don't know for a fact that going into it means you will in fact come out a doctor. If you fail out you're just in a ton of debt.

We don't give obese people hearts because we don't have enough to go around and we'd rather not use it on someone who is likely to die either way. It's a hard choice to make, which is why donating your body to science should be mandatory, so we can have more organs to help save people who are still alive. Or at least the default option that you should have to opt out of at the DMC instead of the other way around.

Its absolutely anecdotal. only 14% of claims are denied. another 14% say they were offered to little, but I mean people expect free so of course. So under the ABSOLUTE WORST 28% of people get teh shaft with only 14% getting denied that is what the numbers bear out.

Burden of proof should be on the doctor. Insurance companies arent doctors so their can be a difference between someone having a 100 pound tapeworm is just someone who does not take care of themselves.

I call bs on your claim it is money lol. My wife is from a poor farming town in Nebraska, she had ZERO fucking money. I am pretty sure her 3rd year of college when her mom died of OVarian cancer they were bankrupt. And sure so it is still not a money issue. IT is a you know being able to be a doctor issue. IF we are being real, not everyone can be a doctor, so you have to be realistic with your expectations of yourself. If there is a question of whether you can do it or not, dont. Which is why the pay is what it is. IF you yourself just said most dont because they would fail and dont want the bill supply and demand says the ones who can need to be properly compensated.

Exactly. That last statement is exactly what I said. They are a bad bet. I disagree with your position on mandatory organ donation as well. That is some midevil shit yo, people waiting for you to die to get your organs lol.

Edited by Omerta
Draconian shit

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19 minutes ago, Omerta said:

Its absolutely anecdotal. only 14% of claims are denied. another 14% say they were offered to little, but I mean people expect free so of course. So under the ABSOLUTE WORST 28% of people get teh shaft with only 14% getting denied that is what the numbers bear out.

Burden of proof should be on the doctor. Insurance companies arent doctors so their can be a difference between someone having a 100 pound tapeworm is just someone who does not take care of themselves.

I call bs on your claim it is money lol. My wife is from a poor farming town in Nebraska, she had ZERO fucking money. I am pretty sure her 3rd year of college when her mom died of OVarian cancer they were bankrupt. And sure so it is still not a money issue. IT is a you know being able to be a doctor issue. IF we are being real, not everyone can be a doctor, so you have to be realistic with your expectations of yourself. If there is a question of whether you can do it or not, dont. Which is why the pay is what it is. IF you yourself just said most dont because they would fail and dont want the bill supply and demand says the ones who can need to be properly compensated.

Exactly. That last statement is exactly what I said. They are a bad bet.

I'm not saying most would fail, I'm saying the idea of going into it not knowing whether or not you're going to pass is what scares people, because if you fail you're just completely screwed. Sure if you pass you're good, but its a huge risk to take is my point.

It's only a bad bet because we don't have enough to go around, was my point. We need more organs. (This sounds creepy, lol.)

You... damn. You really have no idea, do you? "14% were offered too little because people just want things for free." You've just bought in hook, line, and sinker to the entire propaganda of poor people just want free shit handed to them. More than 1/4 of people with insurance don't get covered or only get "covered" like the dude yesterday who was told his medicine was covered and then when he came to pick it up he still had a $1200 copay. This is not even talking about all the millions of Americans who can't even afford insurance. And you're apparently just... completely okay with that.

I think I'm done with this conversation. We both clearly have completely different priorities, what is right, and the responsibility of a society to take care of the people in it. There's no further point to discussion. 

Edited by Thanatos

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I think you misunderstood my intent. When I say people expect free, I am saying people truly have no idea what medical things cost. So when they get the bill, they say things like,"It shouldn't cost that much, it's just (insert procedure)" people have no earthly clue what things cost, so they have unrealistic expectations some of that 14% of the time. 

And that glosses over the point that insurance is not these demons people say they are and that is taking every complaint as fact that it happened exactly as the person making the complaint says.

And if you don't want to continue that's fine with me. We both knew going in we don't agree on insurance/healthcare.

Edited by Omerta

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4 minutes ago, Omerta said:

I think you misunderstood my intent. When I say people expect free, I am saying people truly have no idea what medical things cost. So when they get the bill, they say things like,"It shouldn't cost that much, it's just (insert procedure)" people have no earthly clue what things cost, so they have unrealistic expectations some of that 14% of the time. 

And that glosses over the point that insurance is not these demons people say they are and that is taking every complaint as fact that it happened exactly as the person making the complaint says.

And if you don't want to continue that's fine with me. We both knew going in we don't agree on insurance/healthcare.

The only thing I will say is the idea that it should cost that much is what is total baloney. It's a made up price by the hospital and the insurance, it doesn't cost that much. They just overcharge out the ass.

Insurance's job is to make money. By definition, that involves paying as little as possible on claims.

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It's not really the hospital, or insurance. I mean it is but it is the suppliers. The people who make these products are the real problem. I only know this to be true because I saw an invoice once. You and I buy a splint that is bad ass for what? 5 bucks maybe???

Medline charges over 15 times that. A banana bag that tages $6 to make. Over 100. I mean the hospital makes there's to be sure, but these medical supply people are the biggest fucking crooks imo.

And the insurance thing is barely overblown by anecdotal evidence. Only 14% of claims are denied which is a far cry from lunacy.

Edited by Omerta

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