Tom The Great

[BwareDWare94 723]

You can make the "without" argument against everyone.

That's the point. Brady has had incredible special teams throughout his career, has had solid to great defenses for all but a season or two. He's had the same coach the entire time. Put Rodgers, Ben, Brees, etc. in that situation and they produce 5 championships, too

Edited February 16, 2017 by BwareDWare94

[Sarge+ 3,436]

If you penalize Brady for having Belechick and good defenses, then you have to penalize Joe Montana for having Bill Walsh, who was way ahead of his time, and that Jerry Rice guy. And SF had good defenses in the 80's too.

 

What a surprise... one player can't do it alone in the NFL even if they're the GOAT.

[seanbrock 1,684]

I'm not following your logic. Everybody agrees that you need a defense to win in the Super Bowl. We're arguing that team accomplishments should be weighted less in determining who is the greatest of all time. Counting stats and super bowl rings aren't the end all be all.

 

Let me put it this way, one of Ben Roethlisberger's worst years statistically was what I would argue might have been his best season. Put Charlie Batch in instead of him and the Steelers would have been drafting in the top ten even with an all time great defense. Troy Aikman won 3 rings, was he better than Dan Marino? I don't know if you'd find many people who aren't Cowboys fans that would say that. Hell even most Cowboys fans recognize Marino as a better QB than Aikman. Football is complicated. There are 21 other men on the field on every snap.

 

The reason why we're saying Brady isn't the GOAT is because his coach, the greatest coach of all time, has replaced player after player and kept on winning and that includes Brady. You could argue that Montana was replaced too but Steve Young is a hall of famer in his own right. Matt Cassel...not so much. 14-5 without Brady and at the minimum top 10 in every major passing statistical category. How many hall of fame QB's do you replace with some scrub and have their team look that good? Early in the year the Patriots looked like the best team in the league BY FAR without their two best players.

 

Brady was a back up QB in college and he started out as a back up in high school. He would almost certainly have not even been drafted if not for Belichick having the vision to draft him.

 

You want to Bring Montana into the conversation? Montana had been reduced to a back up role in college due to injury but never for long. He was one of the best come from behind QB's in NCAA history as well as NFL history. Montana's first Super Bowl team was far from stacked too. No Jerry Rice for that one and then you have his tenure with the Chiefs as an old man after numerous injuries and he took them to the AFCCG. Montana is undefeated in the super bowl with no INT's too. 11-0 TD:INT ratio. People acting like it's Brady because his TEAM wins a lot are way off base.

[Milla4Prez63 678]

Until someone else other than Brady wins a ring with Belichick, the whole anyone else can do it argument is just empty. Sorry.

[Thanatos 2,847]

Saints defense in 09 got scored on and teams put yards up against them but they also scored 8 defensive TD's and forced 39 turnovers. That's fucking insane.

 

The 2007 Giants defense played great in the playoffs too. Forced a lot of turnovers and allowed 16.2 ppg. They did the same thing in 2011 allowing even less ppg at 14. Their defensive line woke up and dominated.

 

The year the Colts won they forced 13 turnovers and scored 2 defensive TD's in the playoffs. They allowed 16.2 ppg too.

 

The 2012 Ravens weren't dominant in the playoffs but they forced turnovers. 6 int's. 4 fumble recoveries, but I would have to say the 2012 Ravens are the worst Super Bowl winning team of my life time.

 

Remember how we were talking about sample sizes? You're taking 3 games and saying that makes them a good defense.

 

The 2011 Giants are not a good defense. They did not make the playoffs because of their defense. Same with every other team on this list.

 

If your argument is just that the defense has to play well in all three or four playoff games, and it doesn't matter one whit what they did to get there, that'll require a bit more research.

 

Montana being undefeated in the SB is an incredibly dumb argument. Is it more impressive to get to seven SBs and win five of them, or only get to 4- thus getting knocked out in rounds prior to the SB- and win all of those? Far more impressive to get to 7 and win 5, IMO.

That's the point. Brady has had incredible special teams throughout his career, has had solid to great defenses for all but a season or two. He's had the same coach the entire time. Put Rodgers, Ben, Brees, etc. in that situation and they produce 5 championships, too

 

"Incredible Special teams"- that cost him a chance to win the AFCCG in OT last year, and forced him to go for two twice in the SB just to send it into OT.

 

Arod never leads that comeback. Neither does any other QB, possibly ever, certainly out of those who are currently playing.

Edited February 17, 2017 by Thanatos

[Piggly Wiggly 960]

Fucking hilarious to see how many of you pussies are in denial about TFB being the GOAT. The Brady isn't shit without Belichick/Belichick isn't shit without Brady narrative is so played out.

 

And for the ''Pats went 11-5 with Matt Cassel at the helm LOLZ!!!!'' crowd, did you idiots even actually watch a single game from 2008? The Pats had the fortune of having an extreme cupcake schedule that year. And the few good teams they did face, noodle arm Cassel and the Pats got taken to the shed... losing by 20 to San Diego and by 23 to Pittsburgh, for example. You think a year after going 16-0, a Brady-led Pats team is getting blown the fuck out by the Chargers? LOL.

 

I'd like to say Brady's two best seasons (never minding statistics) were in 2006 and 2013. In '06, Brady had BUMS (Reche Caldwell, Troy Brown's ancient ass, Ben Watson... are you fucking kidding me LOL!!!!) as receivers, a burnt out Corey Dillon, and an aging defense. The result? 12-4 season and on the door step of Super Bowl XLI... Pats had a 21-3 lead in AFCCG, but Colts offense gassed that aging defense out. But nah, let's discredit Brady, and say it was all because of Belichick.

 

In 2013, I really don't think I've ever seen a more type of true ''MVP'' type of season from Brady. I believe it was statistically one of his worst seasons, but it was incredible how many comebacks he led (for example beating Denver when Pats were down 24-0 at the half), and with how the lack of weapons he was surrounded by just like he was in 2006. Not to mention about half the fucking team was on injured reserve. Yet it was another 12-4 season with an AFCCG appearance. It was all Belichick, though.... and the kicking game.

 

 

Can't wait to see the .gifs and pics rolling out of the Pats ring ceremony in June...

 

 

 

[oochymp 2,393]

Until someone else other than Brady wins a ring with Belichick, the whole anyone else can do it argument is just empty. Sorry.

who else has had the opportunity? Drew Bledsoe might have done it in '01 if he hadn't gotten hurt, but we'll never know, beyond him the only QB not named Tom Brady who has started the majority of a season was Matt Cassel and he missed the playoffs at 11-5, otherwise you've got the Browns of the early '90s led by and end of career Bernie Kosar and Vinny Testaverde

[Warhorse 132]

No one changes anyone else's mind about powerfully charged subjects...sports, politics, religion, etc. If you love Brady, hate him, or just respect him, your opinion will not change except by your own accord. All one does here is sharpen their own slant, by grinding their opinionated knife on the whetstone of other's opinions.

 

So here is mine....sharpen away.

 

I do not judge QB's by their rings. The QB position is the most important in the game of football, but it's importance does not lend to directly connecting championships with greatness. Brady was a big factor in the number of championships that the Patriots have won in the last 20 years. To say that they would have been accomplished with another QB is absurd....to say that he was the main reason why they were accomplished...is equally absurd.

 

I judge a QB by many things. Accuracy, intelligence, toughness, strategy, athleticism, speed, strength, knowledge, preparation, and on and on. In a previous post, I alluded to Brady's short to mid field accuracy. I also highly respect his preparation, knowledge, mental toughness, strategy, and football intelligence. But he lacks some aspects of the position that remove him from being the best.....although it is folly, IMO, to actually choose one that is the best, because in every scenario, we are comparing apples to oranges.

 

But if I had to consider one QB, it would not be a commonly chosen QB. It would be based on all those things, and many more. When I think of all things, my choice is Warren Moon. He did all things possible out of the QB position. He had top accuracy over the middle, short range, and could throw a deadly accurate 35 yard frozen rope. He could tuck it in and get tough yards. He did it with different coaches, different coordinators, different teams, and even in different leagues. But, as I said, it IS folly to choose the best, so therefore, Moon is not the best.

[seanbrock 1,684]

Warren Moon, interesting choice. He was putting up some crazy stats for the era he was in. Never saw him play though tbh.

[SteVo+ 3,702]

No one changes anyone else's mind about powerfully charged subjects...sports, politics, religion, etc. If you love Brady, hate him, or just respect him, your opinion will not change except by your own accord. All one does here is sharpen their own slant, by grinding their opinionated knife on the whetstone of other's opinions.

 

 

[seanbrock 1,684]

It's a sports message board. We argue about shit. It's what keeps members active. It would be boring as fuck if everybody had the same opinion and nobody would ever post anything. Stevo, your attempt at pragmatism sucks. lol j/k you know I love you. Go birds.

[SteVo+ 3,702]

It's a sports message board. We argue about shit. It's what keeps members active. It would be boring as fuck if everybody had the same opinion and nobody would ever post anything. Stevo, your attempt at pragmatism sucks. lol j/k you know I love you. Go birds.

 

That's my style. Commenting on the goings-on without actually contributing anything of substance.

[BJORN 679]

who else has had the opportunity? Drew Bledsoe might have done it in '01 if he hadn't gotten hurt, but we'll never know, beyond him the only QB not named Thomas Edward Patrick Brady Jr. who has started the majority of a season was Matt Cassel and he missed the playoffs at 11-5, otherwise you've got the Browns of the early '90s led by and end of career Bernie Kosar and Vinny Testaverde

There is more evidence to suggest Bledsoe would not have done it in 01. Cassel never won anything in NE and he replicated his good year in KC with similar results.

Edited February 17, 2017 by BJORN

[Vin+ 3,121]

If you penalize Brady for having Belechick and good defenses, then you have to penalize Joe Montana for having Bill Walsh, who was way ahead of his time, and that Jerry Rice guy. And SF had good defenses in the 80's too.

 

What a surprise... one player can't do it alone in the NFL even if they're the GOAT.

Good. Now that we're in agreement, where do we go?

 

Elway took some meh teams to a few Super Bowls, where does he fit?

[BJORN 679]

But he looks like a horse.

[Vin+ 3,121]

We've all got our crosses to bear.

[Sarge+ 3,436]

Good. Now that we're in agreement, where do we go?

 

Elway took some meh teams to a few Super Bowls, where does he fit?

 

At no point does Elway ever enter the conversation, IMO.

 

Not that he wasn't great. But we're talking the best of the best here.

[RazorStar 4,025]

And that conversation ends with Trevor Siemian, super bowl winning QB.

[blotsfan 2,112]

And that conversation ends with Trevor Siemian, super bowl winning QB.

 

This joke has literally never been funny.

 

Your joke when you respond to this post with "but its not a joke" will also not be funny.

[RazorStar 4,025]

The only thing that gets under blots' skin easier than Agent Orange is Trevor Siemian, super bowl champion.

[Warhorse 132]

Good. Now that we're in agreement, where do we go?

 

Elway took some meh teams to a few Super Bowls, where does he fit?

I like the Bradshaw argument. Surely he is top 5 with all those rings?

[.AirMcNair. 1,232]

The total rings argument is stupid, but even if it were being used, Bradshaw wasn't even half the QB that Brady is, so it's not even really relevant.

[BwareDWare94 723]

Rings are not the be all end all in a team game, period.

[Sarge+ 3,436]

Some QBs have rings. Some QBs have stats.

 

 

Brady has both.

[BwareDWare94 723]

So does Ben. So would Brees if he had better pieces. So would Rodgers if GB ever assembled a complete team, but they always seem to have a glaring weakness.

 

Tom Brady without the coaching continuity would not have the same resume.