Jump to content
Sign in to follow this  
BwareDWare94

Ben Shapiro

Recommended Posts

That is not true, or at the very least not even close to definitive.

 

If it's not a mental disorder why is there such a high rate of suicide? Bullying? Try again--the vast majority of suicides have nothing whatsoever to do with bullying. If outside sources caused suicide we'd have way, way more suicides. On occasional bullying contributes, but it's an anomaly.

 

When it comes to gender dysphoria any treatment presently given is ineffective in curbing the suicide rate. We have not found the answer. That, and this is much more likely, we're ignoring the answer. Treat it humanely as a mental disorder.

 

Bware, it is safe to say you don't understand mental health issues. We have no idea how bullying affects an individual who later goes on to commit suicide. Don't even pretend for a second that you know what it's like to live as a transgender person, who is constantly at war with their own feelings and societal perceptions. I fully understand why a transgender individual would struggle with suicidality; the whole circumstances of being transgender are ripe with opportunities for depression to develop given how it's perceived and treated - especially by teenagers. Don't even pull the "treat it humanely as a mental disorder". You can't pull that card. You've demonstrated close to no respect for the reality of mental health issues in this thread, so you can't even pretend like you're respecting it. Society and the individuals that comprise it are still a long way from being able to grasp "oh, this mental health issue doesn't define who you are as a person?" among other very basic truths to the concept. Just "treating it like a mental disorder" is akin to saying "let's just acknowledge that they're crazy and move on with it" when you think about how 90% of people are going to interpret that statement.

 

And yes, there is a biological basis for transgenderism. It's irrelevant what you think. There is a biological basis for every perception you've ever had. There has never once been an unnatural thought process. If it was unnatural, it wouldn't happen. Simple as that. I've read that people who identify as transgender are more likely to have different hormonal balances than the standards for both sexes, but I'll try to find a legitimate source that backs this up.

 

Edit:

 

Wikipedia FTW. Google just gave me shit with no legitimate research backing any of the links.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Causes_of_transsexuality#Genetics

 

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3402034/

 

http://www.abc.net.au/science/articles/2008/10/27/2401941.htm

 

It's perhaps more appropriate to say that there is a suggested genetic component to being transgender.

Edited by OSUViking

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Mental health issues only define people when those issues are used as an excuse for how they treat other people.

 

Also, we need people to stop self-diagnosing

Edited by BwareDWare94

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Also, we need people to stop self-diagnosing

So who should diagnose stuff? You've made it clear you don't trust the general medical community.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Mental health issues only define people when those issues are used as an excuse for how they treat other people.

Also, we need people to stop self-diagnosing

No, mental health issues never define anyone. If someone has depression and is an asshole, they're an asshole because of who they are regardless of depression. Mental health issues don't make someone dangerous, and they don't make people shitty.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

So who should diagnose stuff? You've made it clear you don't trust the general medical community.

Where?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I feel like this is an area where I know just enough to be dangerous, so please bear with me and know that I'm very open to being corrected. 'Delusion' was almost certainly too strong of a term to use, so I'm gonna elaborate a bit. My understanding (and please see my first sentence) is that there's still an accepted treatment that's basically just counseling to get the person to be more comfortable with their birthsex. Whether that's an effective treatment is something I certainly don't have the training for, but it's the idea I was trying to get to which is that many people who oppose transgender rights think transgender people are just confused.

 

I certainly think there's a contingent that just has the "ew gross" reaction Thana mentioned, and much of it, like nearly all prejudices, comes from fear of the unknown. But, unlike the race debates Blots referred to (and that many people site) there is some question as to whether being transgender is truly an immutable characteristic or if they're just guys that like "girly" things. It may be a debate that we look back in 30 years with better science and wonder how anyone could be so stupid, but that doesn't change the legitimacy of the debate today.

Edited by oochymp
  • Upvote 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

If "being accepting" of transgenderism, supporting hormone treatments, and believing in sex reassignment had a positive effect at the macro level, I'd believe in it. It doesn't. They still face the same problems. They still kill themselves at an alarming rate. We don't have the answer.

 

Tolerance used to be "I disagree but it's a free country, do what you want," but now it's become "either bend to my view on this topic or you're a bad person!" I don't see enough significant evidence to treat being transgender as if it's just the way the person is and we can't help them without drastic medical action. That doesn't make me an asshole. Mistreating transgenders would make me an asshole. I won't do that, but I don't have to get in line to be a decent person.

Edited by BwareDWare94

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I still think the whole concept of gender is a big farce. If someone wants to label who they are as an individual as female or whatever, fine. Not a big deal.

 

Bware, you keep mentioning hormonal treatments. Why the hell does that matter to you? If you're pro-choice, I'd expect that you'd be all for people having the choice to do whatever they want with their body. Let them face the consequences if it truly is so detrimental.

Edited by OSUViking

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

You're right about gender to an extent. Biological sex exists. Gender is the social construct of things we associate with each sex. To even use the word "gender" in most of this debate is actually wrong. People are trying to say they are a different sex, not gender.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

If "being accepting" of transgenderism, supporting hormone treatments, and believing in sex reassignment had a positive effect at the macro level, I'd believe in it. It doesn't. They still face the same problems. They still kill themselves at an alarming rate. We don't have the answer.

 

Tolerance used to be "I disagree but it's a free country, do what you want," but now it's become "either bend to my view on this topic or you're a bad person!" I don't see enough significant evidence to treat being transgender as if it's just the way the person is and we can't help them without drastic medical action. That doesn't make me an asshole. Mistreating transgenders would make me an asshole. I won't do that, but I don't have to get in line to be a decent person.

Well, a big part of the reason Tranny's kill themselves would probably be because most people are disgusted by it and ridicule them assault them and in some cases murder them. People need to be accepted by others to be healthy mentally. You might think YOU don't, but you would be wrong. People are social animals.

 

I agree with you about the social justice mentality though. Like I said in the flag thread. If you want to get somebody to understand your point of view it's probably not a good idea to start off by telling them they're an entitled asshole. An attack is always going to be met by some sort of defense. Trying to solve problem that way is an exercise in futility.

  • Upvote 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I agree with you about the social justice mentality though. Like I said in the flag thread. If you want to get somebody to understand your point of view it's probably not a good idea to start off by telling them they're an entitled asshole. An attack is always going to be met by some sort of defense. Trying to solve problem that way is an exercise in futility.

 

QFT

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Well, a big part of the reason Tranny's kill themselves would probably be because most people are disgusted by it and ridicule them assault them and in some cases murder them. People need to be accepted by others to be healthy mentally. You might think YOU don't, but you would be wrong. People are social animals.

 

I agree with you about the social justice mentality though. Like I said in the flag thread. If you want to get somebody to understand your point of view it's probably not a good idea to start off by telling them they're an entitled asshole. An attack is always going to be met by some sort of defense. Trying to solve problem that way is an exercise in futility.

You are reaching. There's no provable correlation between the way a small percentage of Americans treat them and their suicide rate. Suicide is not primarily caused by outside sources. It's caused by the feelings that come with the brain not producing the right chemicals often coupled with the individual's own abuse of addictive substances. There is no "final straw scenario."

 

Edit--I'm talking about all suicides.

Edited by BwareDWare94

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

You are reaching. There's no provable correlation between the way a small percentage of Americans treat them and their suicide rate. Suicide is not primarily caused by outside sources. It's caused by the feelings that come with the brain not producing the right chemicals often coupled with the individual's own abuse of addictive substances. There is no "final straw scenario."

 

Edit--I'm talking about all suicides.

 

Substance abuse can certainly contribute to suicide. You're severely underestimating how environment can impact mental health. Severely severely underestimating. I generally think the whole diagnostic process is arbitrary, but I almost always acknowledge that environment plays a huge role. Personality disorders and CPSTD literally cannot develop without environmental effects in the form of abuse or neglect. Social withdrawal caused by mistreatment from peers or self-perceived isolation (as is often the case with transgender individuals) can worsen depression.

 

The more I think about this, the more I wonder if transgender individuals "simply" experience depression as a direct result of how society perceives transsexuality/transgenderism/whatever is the proper term (someone please share which is the proper term). I would imagine it is akin to a homosexual individual committing suicide because of a lack of empathy, understanding, and support from both family and peers.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

Substance abuse can certainly contribute to suicide. You're severely underestimating how environment can impact mental health. Severely severely underestimating. I generally think the whole diagnostic process is arbitrary, but I almost always acknowledge that environment plays a huge role. Personality disorders and CPSTD literally cannot develop without environmental effects in the form of abuse or neglect. Social withdrawal caused by mistreatment from peers or self-perceived isolation (as is often the case with transgender individuals) can worsen depression.

 

The more I think about this, the more I wonder if transgender individuals "simply" experience depression as a direct result of how society perceives transsexuality/transgenderism/whatever is the proper term (someone please share which is the proper term). I would imagine it is akin to a homosexual individual committing suicide because of a lack of empathy, understanding, and support from both family and peers.

That's not the reason a homosexual would commit suicide! They would have to literally be suicidal beforehand. People are not driven to suicide.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Sure, I can agree they're likely depressed independent of homosexuality or transsexuality. Both of those, and how they're perceived and treated in society, can and will worsen depression if they face a lack of support from their family and peers (which is often the case).

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Outside sources are a miniscule factor if one at all.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Bware, you're the one claiming that external sources have no effect on suicidality. Back this up. I'm not going to waste my time arguing with you because you don't want to hear anything that doesn't back up what you believe. Provide empirical, peer-reviewed sources that state outside sources don't impact suicidal thoughts.

  • Upvote 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Yeah, we love ya BWare but you're talking out of your ass.

  • Upvote 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

That's not the reason a homosexual would commit suicide! They would have to literally be suicidal beforehand. People are not driven to suicide.

Where are you getting this? People can absolutely be bullied into committing suicide. There are certainly multiple factors, but people are absolutely driven to suicide.

  • Upvote 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Is it safe to assume that you don't have sources to back yourself up, Bware?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4304582/

 

http://m.huffpost.com/us/entry/4002897

^it's Huffington Post but there are cited statistics in the piece

 

https://www.google.com/amp/s/cdn.relaymedia.com/amp/www.poynter.org/2013/bullying-is-not-on-the-rise-and-it-does-not-lead-to-suicide/227095/

 

Suicide is 10X more complicated than the brash, near-sighted oversimplification of "so and so was bullied into suicide." That idea is completely asinine. There are a million stressors in this world and most of them are realities that are not going away. Bullying is one of those realities.

 

We are focusing on the wrong thing with bullying, because we can't be sure that kids and adults aren't bullied. What we can do is raise them to stand up for themselves. Instead of telling young kids to run to a teacher when they're bullied, how about we tell them to stand up for themselves? There won't always be someone in authority to resolve issues, so to teach them young to run away and not stand up for themselves is permanently damaging.

 

I will teach my son, if I have one, to punch a bully in the mouth. I will teach my daughter, if I have one, to not be so caught up in what everyone else is doing and "what's in" to instead find her own identity.

 

Raise strong children who can withstand normal bullying. Don't raise weak crybabies who will never lose the mindset of victimhood

Edited by BwareDWare94
  • Upvote 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4304582/

 

http://m.huffpost.com/us/entry/4002897

^it's Huffington Post but there are cited statistics in the piece

 

https://www.google.com/amp/s/cdn.relaymedia.com/amp/www.poynter.org/2013/bullying-is-not-on-the-rise-and-it-does-not-lead-to-suicide/227095/

 

Suicide is 10X more complicated than the brash, near-sighted oversimplification of "so and so was bullied into suicide." That idea is completely asinine. There are a million stressors in this world and most of them are realities that are not going away. Bullying is one of those realities.

 

We are focusing on the wrong thing with bullying, because we can't be sure that kids and adults aren't bullied. What we can do is raise them to stand up for themselves. Instead of telling young kids to run to a teacher when they're bullied, how about we tell them to stand up for themselves? There won't always be someone in authority to resolve issues, so to teach them young to run away and not stand up for themselves is permanently damaging.

 

I will teach my son, if I have one, to punch a bully in the mouth. I will teach my daughter, if I have one, to not be so caught up in what everyone else is doing and "what's in" to instead find her own identity.

 

Raise strong children who can withstand normal bullying. Don't raise weak crybabies who will never lose the mindset of victimhood

 

 

 

See here is what is going to happen. You are going to make a rational statement, then the leftists get here. They are going to reply with,"Instead of raising kids to stand up to be bullies, lets raise our kids not to be bullies." ignoring all rationality and trying to continue to live in their fantasy world where all people can be good. I agree with you, sometimes, people are going to be assholes for no particular reason at all (here comes the,"You mean just like you", yes just like me). The question is do you have a enough self-worth and self-respect to do something about it.

 

Bullying will never go away, ever. Raise a fighter. Just make sure they know that not every dissenting opinion is hate speech, and their opinion is not the only valid one in the universe because then you create a cry bully.

Edited by Omerta
  • Upvote 1
  • Downvote 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

"Our study highlights the need to view suicide in youth as arising from a complex interplay of various biological, psychological, and social factors of which bullying is only one."

 

It says it right there. I'm fully aware of how complex the circumstances of suicide are. I fully recognize that it's not as simple as attributing one factor. But you said that external factors have minimal effect, and that's just objectively wrong. Neglect, abuse, bullying, whatever... If a person is depressed and they experience those things, their symptoms will worsen.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
Sign in to follow this  

  • Chatbox

    TGP has moved to Discord (sorta) - https://discord.gg/JkWAfU3Phm

    Load More
    You don't have permission to chat.
×