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blotsfan

Confederate Flags and Statues Must be Removed

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Your choice was a nazi sympathizer or a not-nazi sympathizer. You chose the nazi sympathizer.

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I voted for transparency. I voted for a wake up call. Looks like I voted for activism and change. I decided not to vote for the lesser of two evils. Hopefully the power struggle in the DNC turns out to be a good thing. Hopefully people come out in vote in congressional and local primaries and elections.

 

Hell, hopefully the Libertarian's can take over the Republican Party because I'd much rather work with a Libertarian that wants to stay out of foreign wars and leave my rights alone over War Hawking, wire tapping Neo Cons.

 

Trump has the ability to accomplish BOTH of those things just by his very existence. Imagine what our country would look like being run by Progressives and Libertarians instead of bought out corporate hacks.

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Spin it however you want. You voted for a nazi sympathizer to be president.

Edited by blotsfan

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My further problem with tearing down public and historical property illegally... other than it being illegal anyway... Is that why is it all of a sudden a problem now? I mean, the Civil War was waged over 150 years ago, those monuments and statues placed in that era. Slavery has been gone, the Civil Rights movement successful... Yet now, those monuments are problem. That's just weird to me.

And the people we "worship" are all sinners, so it seems a bit hypocritical to me.

Our founding fathers were mostly slave-owners and traders... Some of the wealthiest and most prominent in all of the nation. I think we all agree that slavery is and was awful. Do we tear down the monuments of Washington and Jefferson? Why do we still have these racists on our money?

Reverend Martin Luther King and most of the rest of the Civil Rights movement (just like other people of the time) were sexist, chauvinist pigs -- denying women prominent leadership roles in the national movement for Civil Rights. They were able to take more charge locally, but you had amazing, smart, and talented women who were denied the right to talk at the March on Washington simply because of their gender. Martin Luther King used to write, for a short period, an advice column for Ebony... IN this column he told battered women to self-reflect because they did something wrong to cause their husbands to beat them... He told women with cheaters for husbands to study their husbands mistress to figure out what their husbands really like and want...He told boys who had feelings for other boys that they should seek psychiatric help...Why do the monuments of a sexist, anti-gay marriage* man get to stand and be honored?

For the record, and before anyone takes this out of context.. I am not suggesting we tear down monuments of Washington, Jefferson, King, etc. I am merely posing the questions and trying to point out that we've happily glorified imperfect people our entire history.

 

In the past, we've been able to separate history and common practices of the era from the heroes we choose to put on pedestals. Nowadays, where everyone looks to get offended over everything.. It's a different story, and where it leads, if anywhere will be interesting to say the least.

 

* - This is a tad of a stretch and assumption on my part. King rarely spoke about gay marriage publicly, if ever. Even people in his own family can't agree on what his opinion would have been on the topic. However, if you want to convince me that a pretty conservative southern baptist preacher was pro gay marriage, I think that might be even more of a stretch. If there is other information out there to contradict my thoughts on this, please share them.

Edited by Olenna4Ever
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Your choice was a nazi sympathizer or a not-nazi sympathizer. You chose the nazi sympathizer.

Christ man. We get it. Trump sympathizes with Nazis. Pick a different argument. It's a shitty thing to support but just repeating this over and over accomplishes absolutely nothing. Before you respond, no I did not vote for Trump.

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Until a trump voter shows remorse for their vote, they can't say "we need to come together." There is no coming together with nazis. Their goal is to kill anyone that doesn't fit into their limited worldview. There is no compromising with them.

 

And holy shit, think about it. The president of the United States had a rant showing his support for Nazis. What other arguments are needed? What else is there?

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Baltimore knows what's up.

https://mobile.nytimes.com/2017/08/16/us/baltimore-confederate-statues.html?_r=0&referer=https://t.co/i1EgUix2lF?amp=1

Incidentally, the state of north carolina added to its constitution that you can't tear down "historical" (confederate) statues so the durham protesters had essentially no legal means of removing that statue even if they wanted to work through the system. Given that the voices of the people in the cities were silenced by others, that means you're all cool with what they did right?

Good on Baltimore. I don't have as much against monuments but I certainly don't like anything related to the Confederacy. Just doesn't make sense to me that people still admire it, but (unfortunately) to each their own. Especially great that they took it down in a proper way as well.

 

I disagree with what you've said NC is doing. If the people want them gone, they should be gone.

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Until a trump voter shows remorse for their vote, they can't say "we need to come together." There is no coming together with nazis. Their goal is to kill anyone that doesn't fit into their limited worldview. There is no compromising with them.

And holy shit, think about it. The president of the United States had a rant showing his support for Nazis. What other arguments are needed? What else is there?

It's a simplistic view. I agree that we shouldn't ever forget that Trump has sympathized with Nazis. That's not why people voted for him in droves. We can't whitewash people. I feel confident in saying Sean is not a Nazi or a Nazi sympathizer, though if he's defended Trump's stance then I can't support that. Falling back on the "Trump is a Nazi sympathizer and you voted for him you awful person!" argument is not only going to get you nowhere, it's going to piss off people and make them not listen. It's similar to how the SJW crowd is harming actual social justice with their rhetoric.

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I'd say being a nazi sympathizer overshadows everything else. But that might just be me 'cause I don't like nazis.

Edited by blotsfan

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It's a simplistic view. I agree that we shouldn't ever forget that Trump has sympathized with Nazis. That's not why people voted for him in droves. We can't whitewash people. I feel confident in saying Sean is not a Nazi or a Nazi sympathizer, though if he's defended Trump's stance then I can't support that. Falling back on the "Trump is a Nazi sympathizer and you voted for him you awful person!" argument is not only going to get you nowhere, it's going to piss off people and make them not listen. It's similar to how the SJW crowd is harming actual social justice with their rhetoric.

 

Yeah, Blots acts like everyone who voted for Trump is a Nazi or a Nazi sympathizer. How does that do anything but divide us even further? Both extremes of each party do this all the time and it is so frustrating... Extreme left like Blots sit there and take some false moral high ground where they preach change and making us whole all the while putting people into these boxes and foregoing individual thought while insulting them in the process. They do this while calling for healing. The extremists on the other side are the much more literal definition of division... The Nazi's , racists, etc. I don't really need to explain why they are about division, do I? Both counter-productive and dangerous people. But it's these people, these extremists on both sides who get the attention and have the voices.. They are the ones plastered on the internet, in videos, in newspapers... They are counter-productive to change, ALL OF THEM. They are ALL dangerous and need to be denounced.

 

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"False" moral high ground.

 

The other side are nazis. Do I have to spell this out for you?

 

If you voted for trump, and still don't regret that decision, it means you are fine with having a nazi sympathizer (which honestly I'm not sure how different that is from being a nazi) as the president. There is no other way to spin it. Yeah it's been obvious what he was for awhile but yesterday he dropped the dogwhistles.

 

On one side we have nazis. On the other side we have people that don't like nazis. Any moral equivalence drawn between the two is stupid and shameful.

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I'd say being a nazi sympathizer overshadows everything else. But that might just be me 'cause I don't like nazis.

To each their own, but I disagree. Nazi sympathizer is so broad at the moment; I've had friends who were worked up about these protests call me a Nazi sympathizer for saying "what people on the Left are doing in response is pretty awful too". I realize it's not the case with Trump, but I digress.

 

I really think identity politics is cancerous for the country. Why even preach that people are individuals if we just turn around and compartmentalize people based on their demographics? Those qualifiers may influence how a person ends up, but they don't decide it. I'll say it again: people are more complex than: ethnicity, religion, health conditions, sex, whatever gender they identify with, political affiliation, socioeconomic background. Really, the list could keep going on. If someone as an individual wants to emphasize their cultural or ethnic background, be my guest. Don't expect me to care. We need to be educating the youth to treat people as individuals and with respect. It will take time, but I don't see any viable alternatives. The current strategy is just galvanizing people with previously hidden prejudice.

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The world doesn't work that way Blots.

 

Many estimates I have seen say that there are between 5,000 - 8,000 KKK members out there. Now.. based not on fatc but just me throwing shit into the wind, let's say that number is low. Really low. So let's pretend that that number is actually 1/10th of the real number. 80,000 Klansman out there... Even more 'generously' let's double it to account for all the Nazi's (in this country).

160,000 vile, disgusting pieces of shit...

After the 2014 election, Gallup did some research to find that somewhere between 39-42% of the american electorate vote Republican. Pew says 44%, for the record.

The American electorate stands at over TWO HUNDRED MILLION PEOPLE.

To keep the numbers in your favor even further, let's just take the lowest of those results and say that there are only 39% of people registered as Republican out of (rounding down) 200M. That's approximately 78,000,000 Republicans

 

Again, totally in your favor.. The number that I literally multiplied by 10 and then doubled.. Was 160,000.

 

160,000 out of 78,000,000 people are absolute garbage human beings. That comes out to .2%

POINT FUCKING TWO PERCENT

 

You are taking POINT TWO PERCENT of people and then applying that standard to 78 MILLION people. 78 million mostly good, hard working no different than you except for the fact that they lean right politically people.

You are disgusting.

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And now that trump declared his support of the nazis, do you think that all but 160000 people that voted for trump regret it?

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And now that trump declared his support of the nazis, do you think that all but 160000 people that voted for trump regret it?

I think some regretted voting for him months ago. Some may have regretted it in the hours, days, and weeks after the election. Some may have stopped supporting him after this fiasco.

 

Who knows? None of us can speak to their motivations. You as an individual draw the line at sympathizing with Nazis. The point I'm making is that your line in the Sand is not universal. I agree with you that a president (sitting or former) sympathizing with Nazis is a goddamn disgrace, but someone who is willing to overlook this because they have other priorities is not by default a Nazi.

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I think some regretted voting for him months ago. Some may have regretted it in the hours, days, and weeks after the election. Some may have stopped supporting him after this fiasco.

If you've seen this and decided you can no longer support him and regret your vote, then I have some serious questions about your past judgement, but whatever.

 

Who knows? None of us can speak to their motivations. You as an individual draw the line at sympathizing with Nazis. The point I'm making is that your line in the Sand is not universal. I agree with you that a president (sitting or former) sympathizing with Nazis is a goddamn disgrace, but someone who is willing to overlook this because they have other priorities is not by default a Nazi.

First they came for the Socialists, and I did not speak out

Because I was not a Socialist.

 

Then they came for the Trade Unionists, and I did not speak out

Because I was not a Trade Unionist.

 

Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out

Because I was not a Jew.

 

Then they came for me and there was no one left to speak for me.

 

 

 

 

 

Look up his comments yesterday. When he went off-script and said what he actually thinks. Edited by blotsfan
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Jeebus. I can't go on. I'll say for the last time, I didn't vote for Trump and have never supported him. Keep living in your own world.

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I never said you did. I'm just saying if you still do, there's no excuse.

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And back to the point I made at the begining of the thread, same thing is being said from someone who has to live somewhere with these monuments in their neighborhood.

 

https://youtu.be/P54sP0Nlngg?t=16m50s

 

Like honestly, instead of telling everybody to develop harder skin (especially when no symbols as extreme as these exist to oppress most of you), or just stop getting affected by symbols that were erected to, in part, oppress one group of people and in other part, empower others (see: Dylan Roof, today's white supremacist who will go as far as mass murder, etc)... How about we just remove them from public property?

 

This really is that simple.

 

And there's no way that it's a mere coincidence that most of these monuments were erected around the turn of the 19th century, and the 50s 60s, which are key points in the civil rights fights of black people.

 

As far as Trump's comments about Washington, and other presidents who owned slaves, that's slippery slope 101. There are several reasons that doesn't apply. Including, the basic fact that most of us can tell the difference between a monument honoring leaders of a country, and monuments honoring men who would rather die then look at blacks and other colored people as equal.

 

These monuments that need to be removed are monuments erected to honor confederate leaders, for their service to the confederacy.

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It's okay for the leaders of our country to be racist but not joe-blows who don't mean anything? Racists may rather die than see blacks have equal rights, but our leaders OWNED other people. Bought them, sold them, killed them, beat them... Isn't that the argument as to why the Confederacy was evil and exactly what they stood for (I am not disagreeing). Seems like the same shit to me.

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If someone asked you who George Washington was, you would say "the first president of the United States."

 

If someone asked you who MLK was you'd say "the leader of the civil rights movement in the 60s."

 

If someone asked you who Robert e lee was you'd say "the main general of the confederacy."

 

Yes, no one is perfect, and yes some people memorialized have done awful things, but when we put up a statue of George Washington, it's to honor him being the president of the US. When a statue of Robert e lee is put up, its honoring his time fighting for a nation trying to ensure that Blake people were enslaved.

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You aren't wrong, but that seems a bit revisionist doesn't it?

 

Blatantly ignoring the bad things people do because they've also done good. It's sad we can do that for powerful people but not others.

 

George Washington, you're racism was OK because you were a fucking President!

 

Reverend King, your homophobia and sexism was exemplary because you helped lead the Civil Rights movement.

Two sides to every coin I suppose.

Edited by Olenna4Ever

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So you really think that on the great scale of life, the balance between the good and bad Robert e lee did is comparable to Washington* let alone MLK?

 

 

*If you want to argue that Washington wasn't a great person because the revolution was a mistake, I'm not sure I can necessarily argue against that.

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I hate to think that we are all judged by some grand "scale of life". It seems rather petty to me, but I suppose we have to be judged on some merit.

 

Did the good Lee did outweigh the good or importance of Washington or others? Probably not, but that doesn't mean it didn't exist.

I like to think of people as complex, with multiple sides, and narrowing their entire lives down to 2-3 words isn't really something I am into. It takes people out of context. Demonizes those who may not have been the best of people, but still accomplished something and it also puts others on a pedestal while ignoring shortcomings -- like they were something other than human.

Our founding fathers owned slaves. Robert E. Lee freed some slaves, he supported his wife in liberating slaves, supporting an illegal school for blacks... He did and said a lot of terrible things and he is definitely on the wrong side of history.

But just like life, people aren't black and white, but rather a vast number of shades of gray.

 

I've mentioned it before, but it's called empathy.

And before you say something all encompassing, like "Nazi's don't deserve empathy". I am not going to argue with you about that. Some people are definitely beyond others on your little "scale of life".

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