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BwareDWare94

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No, because its a religion like any other and the majority of worshipers just want to live their lives. When did you become such a breitbart-spouting fuck?

 

I'm not a "breitbart-spouting fuck." I'm a former extreme liberal who grew tired of all the side nonsense, all the ridiculous PC narratives, or if I can paraphrase Bill Maher, all the "too busy trying to be the first to call out fat-shaming while a madman talks his way into the White House." Leftist liberals have lost sight of the shit that actually matters, and seem to have forgotten that personal accountability is a real fucking thing, and they've elevated individual's feelings over everything else, even if logic dictates that a few whiny little bitches will just have to cry into each other's shoulders and deal with it. Fucking stop this shit already. Start looking for solutions. Let the fucking crybabies be crybabies.

 

Feelings don't matter. Progress matters. Leftists are too caught up in making everybody feel good that they're foregoing opportunities to actually progress our nation, our society, our general perspective as citizens. Leftist liberals are the Band-aids of politicians and citizens. You can't fix these problems with duct tape, hugs, free shit, and scattered eggshells that the rest of us are supposed to try not to step on. Fuck you. Fuck that shit. REFOCUS.

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That's the thing, mental health treatment will help a few of these cases, and we need to have better access to it anyway, even putting aside the issue of mass shootings. My friend who is ex-military absolutely needs to talk to a shrink, but he's too manly to do it. Guy is messed up in the head from what he saw and had to do, and I will never excuse his actions, but his anger problems could probably be alleviated if he would just talk to a psychologist.

 

But we don't want to claim that it will fix the issue of mass shootings.

 

I would be curious here, has anyone done a study on all mass shootings in the US in the last, say, ten years, and seen how many of them were carried out via legally acquired weapons vs illegally acquired weapons?

 

I have not once mentioned "banning Muslims."Don't put words in my mouth. You, of all posters on this site, are better than that. We don't have to agree on everything, but we don't need to hyperbolize statements, either. Banning Muslims would just create more radicals and would be effectively devastating. It'd create so much division. We'd have anarchy in the streets.

 

I have said that we may need to force their modernization, and I don't mean already modernized Muslims. I mean sticking our noses into other countries and snuffing out radicalization now, and telling them that they can't continue to practice violent elements of their religion, can't continue to oppress women, etc. We might create more radicals immediately but 50 years from now the issue will be much smaller than it is right now, much smaller than it currently appears that it will be 50 years from now. We're going to have to get our hands dirty.

Edited by BwareDWare94
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"Feelings don't matter! Progress matters! That's why I propose invading 1/3rd of the countries on earth to 'modernize' their culture in a way that somehow still isn't ethnic cleansing. Even ignoring questions of morality, that's actually a feasible strategy. Aren't I logical and rational?"

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OK, let's continue to do nothing, which is clearly working so well. It's not like we haven't had a bunch of people maimed by flying nails at a marathon recently. It's not like we haven't had a gargantuan number of gay people targeted and then slaughtered in a night club recently. It's not like pedestrians in New York City should feel anything but safe with our recent history.

We can't stay inactive.

Edited by BwareDWare94

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Yes, because there is no middle ground between engaging in the biggest and most destructive war in history (as you're proposing), and turning the US into a muslim theocracy.

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Bware, I am fascinated by your posts. You'll post something I agree with a whole lot, like this:

 

 

 

Feelings don't matter. Progress matters. Leftists are too caught up in making everybody feel good that they're foregoing opportunities to actually progress our nation, our society, our general perspective as citizens. Leftist liberals are the Band-aids of politicians and citizens. You can't fix these problems with duct tape, hugs, free shit, and scattered eggshells that the rest of us are supposed to try not to step on. Fuck you. Fuck that shit. REFOCUS.

 

Fucking YES x100000000. Everyone who has followed my posts over the years knows I am a liberal and knows I support such things as gay marriage, transgender rights, etc... but can we talk about reality for one moment? These things only affect a very tiny segment of the population.

 

While that doesn't mean they are irrelevant, it does mean that issues that affect quite literally everybody get less attention, or, in the case of infrastructure, swept under the rug entirely. When is the last time you saw outrage on social media about the fact that our roads, bridges, airports, waterways, and rail systems are failing every single day and getting left behind by other countries... damaging the transportation of goods and people and the larger economy all in one fell swoop?

 

Never. Because it's not a flashy thing to talk about, but it's without any argument one of the most pressing issues of our time. You'll never see organized protests demanding improvements to our infrastructure, and quite frankly, that's sad. My biggest issues (always have been always will be) are healthcare, education, climate change, infrastructure, and workers' rights (wages and benefits, mainly). These are things that literally affect every single person living today and in 100 years. It doesn't mean other issues don't matter. They do... just less.

 

I think this is an underrated thought in the current zeitgeist.

 

But then, Bware, you say something like this:

 

 

 

I have said that we may need to force their modernization, and I don't mean already modernized Muslims. I mean sticking our noses into other countries and snuffing out radicalization now, and telling them that they can't continue to practice violent elements of their religion, can't continue to oppress women, etc. We might create more radicals immediately but 50 years from now the issue will be much smaller than it is right now, much smaller than it currently appears that it will be 50 years from now. We're going to have to get our hands dirty.

 

How is this the same person? This is not a rational or logical thought.

 

Surely you know that this is impossible. For many reasons... first of all telling people to change their religion? When has that ever worked? Have you ever told a Mormon that they should stop trying to shove their religion on everyone else? Did it work? I bet it didn't. You think that would work on a large scale?

 

2nd reason, you're right, it would create a lot more radicals... why do you think there are so many anti-US radicals to begin with, Bware? We've been sticking our noses in the business over there for a long time... it hasn't done anyone any good, save for the richest of the rich. But everyone else loses their property or their lives, sees their loved ones killed, lives a lawless life on the run from war and poverty. You think the world needs MORE of these things?

 

3rd and final point... our hands are dirty, they have always been dirty, and they will always be dirty. And if you think any of this will go away in 50, 100, 500, 1,000 years, with or without any actions taken by the U.S... then you are sorely mistaken. You can't be the world's police even if you have good intentions. It just doesn't work that way. I am surprised you believe this. You're a smart guy with plenty of better thoughts, like the one above.

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I think that because I believe we have the capability of doing so, and I think much of Europe would become allied with us because of the attacks they're seeing on their soil, too.

 

Do you mean to tell me that we just have to accept that acts of radical Islamic terrorism will always occur? Why can't you and I and every other valuable life in America experience an America where terrorist attacks commit by radical Islamists are a thing of the past? Why are we so dead set on thinking we are practically powerless and have to accept this shit as a reality?

 

We can't hug this away. We can't "play nice" this away.

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Yes, because there is no middle ground between engaging in the biggest and most destructive war in history (as you're proposing), and turning the US into a muslim theocracy.

I, as a US citizen, am not even remotely interested in middle ground if that middle ground comes with continued terror attacks on our people.

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Terrorism is an idea. It's a metaphysical thing... like love, dreams, peace, hatred, you get it.

 

Ideas can't be erased because in the literal sense they don't really exist. They only exist in a cultural zeitgeist, a stream of consciousness.

Edited by Sarge
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In the sense of concept, sure, but the realities of that concept are lives graphically lost, oftentimes in literally separated pieces of each victim. And in cases like the Boston Marathon, how many people horrifically maimed? I think it's best to envision yourself present at these tragedies, then see if you want to find middle ground.

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I don't lack empathy, I can assure you of that. But let me try this from another angle...

 

There's a big difference between feeling something and thinking something. I feel that all wars should stop today and the world should live in peace. But then my logical side immediately takes over and assures me through my thought process that this will never happen.

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Remember how two of the top 5 deadliest shootings in US history happened in the last two months and neither were done by muslims?

 

Whenever people say "feelings don't matter" they're saying "only MY feelings matter." Bware's plan is completely devoid of logic, but since it caters to the bigotry that he feels, then it must be logical.

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I don't lack empathy, I can assure you of that. But let me try this from another angle...

 

There's a big difference between feeling something and thinking something. I feel that all wars should stop today and the world should live in peace. But then my logical side immediately takes over and assures me through my thought process that this will never happen.

 

You don't have to qualify your decency as a human being. You, blots, Than, Omerta, JD, everybody at this site that is a regular in our politics forum--I know you're all decent human beings. Don't worry about that.

 

As for what you said afterward--I think we can all agree on that. As long as there are rulers, there will be dick measuring contests, which is really what most wars are. I don't know how to fix the problem of radical terrorism but I feel as though we are told to throw our arms up in the air, accept it as reality, and walk away.

Edited by BwareDWare94

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Remember how two of the top 5 deadliest shootings in US history happened in the last two months and neither were done by muslims?

 

Whenever people say "feelings don't matter" they're saying "only MY feelings matter." Bware's plan is completely devoid of logic, but since it caters to the bigotry that he feels, then it must be logical.

 

This proves nothing because the terror attacks by radical Muslims are ongoing, and imagine how bad it would be if many weren't thwarted regularly by our defense agencies. You can't quantify death as a means to feed the public a lie. And once again you take words and twist them to make your opponent look as bad as possible. I'm actively trying not to turn to personal attacks toward you. Offer that same level of respect.

 

And stop with the classic liberal "you disagree with me and therefore you're a bigot/badperson/etcetera." That is the go-to line used by whiny snowflakes who don't actually know what they stand for. They're just fed a catch phrase and run with it.

Edited by BwareDWare94

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Bware, you brought up "imagine seeing someone horrifically maimed at the Boston Marathon". Ok, Sarge is using that exact argument. Can you imagine what it must be like for Muslims in the Middle East to watch their peers blown to pieces by some of the most advanced equipment available, by some person from another country? It's literally the most basic form of cognitive empathy here.

 

You are so pissed that you're speaking nonsense. Think about this. You're saying you're tired of Muslim extremists killing people in America, well Muslims in the Middle East are probably tired of Americans constantly waging actual war in their countries.

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Bware, you are basically the guy at the end of V for Vendetta, firing bullets into V trying to kill him as he advances, thinking you can kill what he represents with a gun. "Why won't you die?" "Because beneath this mask is an idea, Mr. Creedy; and ideas are bulletproof."

 

You will never win over anyone by going into their countries with military force and telling them they have to stop practicing things we find wrong. Even those who may agree their religion is ass-backwards are going to back their country against what they perceive to be a foreign invasion.

 

You will do absolutely nothing but spawn more radicals.

 

I understand, I do. People are tired of these things happening. It's hard for us to fathom the reckless hatred inspired in another human being against our way of life because the vast majority of us- and any human of any race, color, religion- are decent human beings.

 

You cannot let those fears allow the government to take away basic rights of people here and elsewhere. We let that happen after 9/11 with the Patriot Act. I understand, we were all afraid of what might happen if we didn't. The fact of the matter is that there will always be bad guys. We can't let that fact make us afraid of continuing on with our lives. The terrorists are never going to win by killing enough of us- and they know that. They will win by making our society based on fear- of them, and of each other, just because of a certain way we look. It's a lot easier to spawn radicals in a society of fear.

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Mental illness wasn't my main point. Erase that from my last post. Sorry to derail the convo.

 

You can't root out the fuckheads who commit mass shootings. It's impossible regardless of what you do. If someone wants to kill a lot of people, they're going to do everything in their power to do so. Whether it's a gun, a vehicle, a knife, or a bomb. They'll find a way to kill.

 

Our defense agency has certainly prevented attacks before, but anyone who wants to perform a mass killing that is savvy in the slightest won't be stopped until they're eating a bullet. It doesn't take much to kill a person, and trying to prevent that with a crackdown on a religion is a goofy scapegoat.

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This proves nothing because the terror attacks by radical Muslims are ongoing, and imagine how bad it would be if many weren't thwarted regularly by our defense agencies. You can't quantify death as a means to feed the public a lie. And once again you take words and twist them to make your opponent look as bad as possible. I'm actively trying not to turn to personal attacks toward you. Offer that same level of respect.

 

And stop with the classic liberal "you disagree with me and therefore you're a bigot/badperson/etcetera." That is the go-to line used by whiny snowflakes who don't actually know what they stand for. They're just fed a catch phrase and run with it.

eth·nic cleans·ing
ˈeTHnik klenziNG/
noun
  1. the mass expulsion or killing of members of an unwanted ethnic or religious group in a society.
    ______________________________________________________________________________
    Nah bro, you're just wrong.
    Also like I already pointed out if we stopped trying to install puppet regimes and let them draw their own boarders, if we stopped arming terrorists and bombing the shit out of them they probably wouldn't want to bomb us. The terror organizations wouldn't have as much power because eventually people might not be in such dire straits economically. It's hard to modernize a country when they don't have full control over their most valuable resources and their infrastructure is in fucking ruins lol.
Edited by seanbrock

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Whenever people say "feelings don't matter" they're saying "only MY feelings matter."

No, not really. NOBODY'S; mine, yours, people on this forums, the presidents, his moms, the popes, or Santas. The reason is simple.

 

At the end of your feelings is nothing. You can hate me and want to see me dead( not saying you do) and it will change absolutely nothing. I will still go home, bang my hot ass wife, and drink an Irish Death and think nothing about you. I am sure you will do the same. That is the nature feelings, that by themselves, they are one of the most meaningless things on the planet outside of the feelings of Those whom we love.

 

Think about all the greatest people in history, and if they aren't in the last hundred years how much can you tell me about him? Okay so you can tell me what they did, such as the Rockefellers of the world. That being said can you tell me how he felt about Henry Ford and the assembly line, can you tell me how he felt about Cornelius Vanderbilt? No, because it's what he did in his life, not how he felt that matters. That's how it's always been, that's how it always will be.

 

All of these protests, and all of these things that we think are life-changing at the moment mean absolutely nothing. I don't give a damn about transgenders or where they piss, that being said as Sarge alluded to, I care a great deal that the roads leading into Seattle or absolutely dogshit because one of these days are going to puncture a tire and it could be my wife's. I don't really care that everybody gets all warm and fuzzy that Seattle is the most Progressive city in the world, it's roads are still dogshit and they always will be because we have these fruity ass things we'd rather spend their money on. Perfect example of my feelings and a majority of people not mattering either.

 

That is the same as saying all lives matter. The harsh truth of it all, is that they don't. I'm going to die sometime in the next 50 years, and four generations from now they will know very little about me. Which is especially surprising, considering I will leave a company that will probably last that long, but even still I will be nothing more than a picture on the wall. As to quote a line from the movie Gladiator, death Smiles at us all all we can do is smile back, we are nothing more than shadows and dust. Do you want to matter? Do something worth remembering.

 

It is the arrogance of human beings to think that we are this world changing event, in the grand scheme of things you and I are not a pile of dogshit on the bottom of the shoe of life. You and I will both be gone, and we will be remembered the same, just some faint memory of a guy who once said something, or did something. We really matter that little, and our feelings matter even less.

Edited by Omerta

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Well actually you can know what some of these guys thought because they wrote it down and in some cases like Ford they actually fucking published it lol. Anyway though, people's lives do matter. Maybe not historically on an individual level or whatever but they do matter. Did every holocaust victim's life matter? No, probably not but collectively they did. Doing the right thing does matter. Just because historically things might have been a certain way, doesn't mean we can't have new ideas and new policies. Feelings can matter too if they're organized. How do you think Seattle became the most liberal city in the country. People got together, organized and made it so.

Edited by seanbrock

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I will still go home, bang my hot ass wife, and drink an Irish Death and think nothing about you. I am sure you will do the same.

I'm not a huge beer drinker but I'm glad you're cool with me banging your wife.

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I'm not a huge beer drinker but I'm glad you're cool with me banging your wife.

Ha shes Irish, dont bite off more than you can chew lol.

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Well actually you can know what some of these guys thought because they wrote it down and in some cases like Ford they actually fucking published it lol. Anyway though, people's lives do matter. Maybe not historically on an individual level or whatever but they do matter. Did every holocaust victim's life matter? No, probably not but collectively they did. Doing the right thing does matter. Just because historically things might have been a certain way, doesn't mean we can't have new ideas and new policies. Feelings can matter too if they're organized. How do you think Seattle became the most liberal city in the country. People got together, organized and made it so.

 

That's a collective sure, if you have enough people you can accomplish almost anything. That is why are early ancestors was ordered two tribes, and today we feel more comfortable and a tribal mentality, as evidenced by our political stage. That being said, I think that is why I we are running into so much friction amongst ourselves lately. We are too busy trying to curtail everything to the ones and needs of a few, instead of trying to look at everything from a big-picture standpoint.

 

For instance, with the transgender bathroom thing. Just use the bathroom you feel like using, it is not that big of a deal. We don't need to go through every building in the f****** country and at a transgender bathroom. We could be using those resources on fixing roads, Bridges, train tracks, airports, Airlines, manufacturing processes, just about everything else. Instead, we're stuck on some petty meaningless bullshit.

 

One person's feelings, should not get to derail the progress for the rest of this. This goes both ways, as the transgender guy shouldn't be able to hold me up from doing what I need to do, or the progress of the greater good. In the same sense Kim Davis shouldn't be able to hold up gay marriage because she feels some moral objection to it. She's more than within her right to do it, but she works for a government office, and a government mandate came down saying she had to do certain tasks, if she doesn't like it she can find another job. If it was a personal business, then I would feel differently about it, but since it's a government office either get with the program or find the door.

 

Using Kim Davis is a perfect example, her feelings don't matter nor will they ever. She will go down in the pantheon of bigots, we're only going to be relegated to obscure history and nobody will ever remember. Likewise the feelings of all the people she screwed also don't matter, because in the end they're going to get married because she's going to be forced to or go back to jail again. As to them wanting to have her specific signature on it just for whatever reason, it doesn't matter how they feel about it she is more than within the right to put pursuant to US Federal code whatever it is. Nobody's feelings about that changed anything.

 

If you want even more proof look at Kony 2012. Everybody and their dog was pissed off about some Ugandan warlord they never heard of a month prior to. All of the sudden everybody woke up with degrees in multiculturalism and geopolitical degrees and decided to tell everybody how wrong this was, and how was you go to war to stop some guy who's been doing his thing since the 70s. That doesn't make it right, but millions of people walk around wearing those stupid bracelets, and guess what it changed? Nothing. Things over there exactly the same. Look at your stance on the Middle East, you say we should stop installing regimes and that would stop them from attacking us, and going to war. I don't believe that to be true at all. We pulled out 1991, decade later they hit us at 9:11. That region over there has been warring for the past 10 Millennium, there's not a damn thing we can do to change it. There's going to be no Grand solution, it doesn't matter how you feel about it those people are going to war no matter what you say. There are going to be terrorists no matter what we do, they're probably going to attack us again no matter what we do. That's just life. How you feel about it, how I feel about it, how anybody feels about it is irrelevant.

Edited by Omerta
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Europe has been warring for the last thousand years. So have Asia and the Americas.

 

Colonialism objectively put many regions in bad starting positions. Sketchy ethnic combinations and divides, as well as colonial powers stoking sectarianism to prevent a unified front. The Middle East is the way it is because of geopolitical circumstances as well as bad luck with shitty people being in positions of control. Obviously, more complex than that yadda yadda, but intervention into the Middle East hasn't solved anything. In fact, the US may not have had an occupational force between 1991 and 9/11, but major powers' fingerprints have been all over such a region for decades.

Edited by OSUViking

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Europe has been warring for the last thousand years. So have Asia and the Americas.

Colonialism objectively put many regions in bad starting positions. Sketchy ethnic combinations and divides, as well as colonial powers stoking sectarianism to prevent a unified front. The Middle East is the way it is because of geopolitical circumstances as well as bad luck with shitty people being in positions of control. Obviously, more complex than that yadda yadda, but intervention into the Middle East hasn't solved anything. In fact, the US may not have had an occupational force between 1991 and 9/11, but major powers' fingerprints have been all over such a region for decades.

I absolutely agree with everything you just said, especially about major players having their fingerprints all over the region. I guess that's what happens when everyone's energy grid is based off of petrol. That being said I 100% object to the idea that just leaving them alone and letting them draw their own borders would be a good idea.

 

I mean I guess it depends on how you would feel about Israel's land footprint going by a hundred times over, because if you leave the Middle East to figure itself out Israel's going to become one big God damn country.

Edited by Omerta

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