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BwareDWare94

Perception--Actual Reality vs. Individual Illusion

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I'm still struggling to get this thread's point through two and a half pages.

Yeah I failed in that regard. Should have just started with TL;DR and hoped folks read it and would respond.

 

Essentially the idea is that our PC culture has devolved our society to the point where we're letting people create their own perceptions about certain things that simply aren't true, and yet we're enabling and encouraging such behavior. People are trying to fit their own realities inside a neat little box when certain realities simply are what they are, whether each individual likes it or not.

 

You should perceive truths through observation. You shouldn't create false truths when observation doesn't work out how you want it to

Edited by BwareDWare94

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I'm kind of on board with others here in that this thread doesn't have a really clear point, or statement that it's trying to make. I'm going to throw it out there, that I believe you are talking about the execution of how these things come about. And what I mean is, when you start legislating for the minority over the majority, or at least you spend more money on the minority when it could be doing more good for the majority. The second part of which, I think you were talking about when a small group of individuals or an individual to a man starts getting special privileges, and can say the most outlandish things and people just seem to accept it at face value.

 

I think the original topic of the idea, or at least the one you alluded to is a philosophical debate that's never going to be solved. This debate goes all the way back to Socrates versus whether or not our perception is reality, our reality is based upon our perceptions. The thing is, you really can't reconcile either one without admitting that both are true.

 

As a personal example, 10 years ago I was drunk, homeless, and working a job that I hated. It was my perception that the man was keeping me down, and it was everyone else's fault because my life hasn't turned out the way it was supposed to. I had these grandiose visions of what my life was going to be and where I was at at that moment did not Jive with what I thought my life should have been. That was my reality. The part of that reality that I didn't know yet was it was all my fault it was my perception. Change my perception and my reality would follow suit. Will 10 years later I'm happily married, have a family of my own, and a business that nothing short of a catastrophe is going to keep me from clearing 10 million dollars in business done this year, my take-home part of that is about 10% of that. So which one was true? Was the man trying to keep me down, or was it the bad decisions? Was it my perception that that was all I could ever do, and it was everybody else's fault the reason that that had become my reality? Anytime this debate gets brought up I always see the two things melding together.

 

 

When it comes to this transgender issue, I am in line with the thinking that is a mental illness. That being said my opinions or feelings on the matter don't really have any consequence to anyone other than myself. I think people can think it's disgusting, weird, unnatural, to mental illness, and there isn't anything wrong with that. I'm not sure if thoughts like that can be inherently good or bad, but what makes them good or bad is the actions that you associate with those. For instance I think it's weird, I think it's a mental illness, and I think it's sick how we deal with it, at least when it comes to young children. I think giving a 13 year old kid the power to make a life-altering decision at that age, is probably not exactly the best way to go about things. I think puberty blockers are one of the most insane, asinine, and stupid things we allow people to do. If you're so sure that kid is a male or female was the harm in Waiting five or six more years for their brain to fully develop, before we ask them to make a decision like that?

 

Now once they actually transition, just so long as they're not assholes like Bruce, I don't really care. I still think it's kind of odd, but who am I to judge? I don't really think my perception should dictate the way they have to live their lives. If they want to transition, by all means go ahead and do it. That being said if they commit suicide, or do something like that I don't think you get to blame society for something that's not wholly our fault either. I also hate this microaggressive society that we live in where if you look like a dude and I call you dude, and I have no idea that you have transitioned, that's not my fault. If you're offended by it, that's your own damn fault. If you're a woman who doesn't hurt anybody, and you're just trying to live your own life your only dark secret was that used to be a man. Then I wish you all the happiness I would wish someone else comment I hope nobody tries to infringe upon it. I think there is a huge difference between making this decision as a grown, mature adult and deciding that this is how you want to be and how you live your life with a somewhat more complete grasp of the consequences, then a 13 year old child. I think parents who do that, need to have their mental health evaluated just as much as their child.

 

It's interesting though, because this very topic illustrates my point of how the two almost always reconcile with each other, and how they're not always mutually exclusive. The person who transitioned into a female, wholeheartedly believe that she is a female. That's how she sees herself, and that's the lens through which she views the world. Is there anything wrong with that? No, not in particular. I personally don't see the world through that same lens, and I see gender dysphoria something that we need a lot more research on before you make wholesale sweeping changes to policy to make it easier to do. Now the stuff I think they should take and how they should go about doing it, is an entirely different matter. That being said it is sufficient to say at this particular juncture I think it is a mental illness to a degree, and I think that was that being said, there's a lot of mental illnesses out there that aren't really harmful to society. So why should we have to infringe upon anybody? It Harkens back to what I was saying earlier cuz I don't think thoughts are inherently evil, but if you go out of your way to make these people's life hell then there's something wrong with you as a human being.

 

I would also like to stay just for the record common that I think those who say well if you don't support this, are you don't believe that, you're an ignorant bigot or scum-of-the-earth human beings as well. I think to sit here and say that somebody who is a difference on something is controversial is this, is it bad person makes you tenfold as bad a person.

 

Your last paragraph illustrates exactly how much of a paradigm this topic is. You say we should perceive truths through observation. Well, that statement you're saying our perception is truth. Which, I'm not going to sit here and disagree with you, but even in your own mind I don't think you really rationalize this town to the point where you can clearly separate the two. I think that is why so many people are having an issue with this topic, is because it's very hard to clear the water when it's inherently muddy, especially with something that is as hotly contested as this.

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The vast, vast majority of suicides have little to do with bullying and societal pressure, so I don't think we can point to a 40% suicide rate and say "it's because people are mean to them!" Healthy people don't off themselves over assholes. There's something wrong internally and despite our ridiculous efforts to normalize such things, we're still failing these people devastatingly. Find the cause, treat it, and foster a society where peers understand it's a condition that the individual can't help.

 

*citation needed* for starters.

 

Secondly, you still didn't answer what the objective of such treatment is. To make them stop being transgender, or what?

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@Ngata--the complexity of this topic is exactly why I started it. I'd like for people to express their viewpoints and brainstorm solutions or ideas of philosophy. Thank you for doing so. In your post you hit on a major point in the trans debate--it should be illegal for anyone under 18 to receive hormone treatments, puberty blockers, etc. Illegal. It should be considered cruel and abusive for parents to subject their children to such treatments. No developing mind should be able to make such a drastic life decision, especially when it proves to be a phase a lot of the time.

 

@Thanatos--the objective of treatment should be to decide the best course of action moving forward for the individual, and practicing caution should be the very first initiative. Patients should never be advised to transition, either, and anyone under 18-21 ought to be talked down from it and/or not allowed to in the first place.

 

@OSU--of course these things can contribute to suicidality but they do not create the ability to take one's own life. Horrid depression, the vacant hopelessness brought on by the brain not functioning properly--that is what allows one to reach that point of no return. Let's focus on the actual source. Citing bullying for suicides is a distraction away from the actual cause.

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@OSU--of course these things can contribute to suicidality but they do not create the ability to take one's own life. Horrid depression, the vacant hopelessness brought on by the brain not functioning properly--that is what allows one to reach that point of no return. Let's focus on the actual source. Citing bullying for suicides is a distraction away from the actual cause.

It's like you're ignoring what I'm saying. I'm not talking about bullying. I am talking about a total lack of familial support and connection, which yeah can directly lead to circumstances of suicidality. It's not even a question. The whole concept of personality disorders (spoiler alert, many people diagnosed with them have attempted suicide before) stems from early childhood trauma, prolonged abuse, or a disconnect from primary caregivers.

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Ok I agree on that point. I've seen it firsthand in some of my...shittier experiences

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Ok I agree on that point. I've seen it firsthand in some of my...shittier experiences

That's what I've been saying over the last like three or four threads this has popped up in. Ignore the social stigma for a sec (it does play a role, I can at least infer this from my experience with SZ), the family aspect (which at least until the last few years was probably overwhelmingly not positive) alone could cause massive mental health issues.

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It absolutely can. Unfortunately, there's a double-edged sword in play here: these individuals lose their victimhood status once they start preying on others, imo. No matter your life experiences, you know how you should and shouldn't treat other people. One of my former good friends clinged to the way they were treated growing up every time they were called out when they were cruel to others.

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It absolutely can. Unfortunately, there's a double-edged sword in play here: these individuals lose their victimhood status once they start preying on others, imo. No matter your life experiences, you know how you should and shouldn't treat other people. One of my former good friends clinged to the way they were treated growing up every time they were called out when they were cruel to others.

They never had victimhood status. They're responsible for their own behavior regardless of how shitty their parents were.

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So right now you don't get counseling that's trying to decide the best course of moving forward for the patient? You think the counselors are doing something else? What? Do you have any evidence they aren't doing things in the best interest of their patient?

 

The patient should never be advised to transition? Why? If the judgement of a professional who is trained to deal with this is that a patient is better off transitioning to another gender, what right or qualification do you have to claim that professional is wrong?

 

Let me ask you, where do you get your information on this topic? You seem to think people just do it willy nilly without doing exactly what you are already proposing as treatment.

 

The reason I ask is that there is a pernicious idea making the rounds on the internet that transitioning is treated lightly, and it's way too easy to get it done. This is- to borrow a phrase from the orange menace- fake news. You cannot merely walk into a doctor's office and asked to be transitioned and the procedure will be done. There is counseling, there are evaluations, both physical and mental, and there are numerous appointments over the course of months, sometimes more than a year. Then the actual process of transitioning can take just as long.

Edited by Thanatos

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