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BwareDWare94

Civil Discourse: What is the Best Solution to School Shootings?

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Perhaps the most sickening part of America's school shooting problem, after of course the deaths of children and faculty, is the level of politicization we're seeing on a day by day basis. Dead children are now a platform upon which to wag fingers and self-promote. It's utterly sickening.

 

What this topic boils down to is this: what does each of us think is the actual solution to this problem? Better yet, can we collectively agree on a solution?

 

My take: a balance of every idea except arming teachers, which is utterly stupid.

 

Legislation: there has to be some middle ground we can find on legislation, because legislation has worked in other countries. We of course don't want emotionally based legislation, but we can still approach the drafting of such legislation with logic and deductive reason.

 

Armed Security Personal at schools: this is a no brainer to me. At most other mass gatherings of people in the United States, armed security is present. Why should schools be any different, especially considering it's mostly children involved?

 

Recentering our moral compass and our priorities: we have to be better as a collective unit overall or we have no chance at fixing this issue.

Edited by BwareDWare94

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I think this issue has strong roots in how we socialize our youth. Kids are growing up with weaker attachments to their caregivers for a whole variety of reasons, and that has significant effects on how that individual goes on to process their emotions. On top of that, the social environment at schools and such likely exacerbate any issues from home. Social hierarchies are bound to happen, but I think what we are seeing are young men who are socially rejected because they didn't have anyone there to show them how to function as a human being, and as a result of all of that they have no capacity to regulate an appropriate response.

 

Edit:

 

I don't have a solution. Fixing the above would require educating people on massive scales, and it's not like that's a very efficient method. I encourage you guys to read about attachment theory, and how a damaging (abusive) or weak (neglectful/absent) relationship with the parents can cause significant issues for the child later on in life.

Edited by OSUViking

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I think the first step is to accept there will be no solution where nobody dies. I think we would all agree that would be ideal, but in the same degree I think that we would all agree that is not really a reasonable goal. I think the second is to make sure that we put a moratorium on policy making for at least 2 weeks in the wake of mass shootings. People are entirely to emotional and susceptible too fear tactics and an over exaggerated sense of protection instincts.

 

Those two not withstanding I think we need to enforce the guns laws we already have. I think we should close the gunshow loophole. I think we should not have restrictions on what you can own, once you pass an extensive test, and mental evaluation.

 

Stop diverting from the problem. We dont ban cars after DUI's, stop blaming guns. I see why people dont blame cars, because we THINK we need them, and we cant imagine our life without them. There are some parts of hte world were a gun is more important than a car, and think we need to quit shifting the problem. We need to accurately frame this conversation.

 

Why do kids no more than ever think that shooting a school is the way to go? If we figure out that question, we will have taken the first real step in solving these. I think a lot of it is we just have a society full of bitch ass people who think their feelings matter more than anothers. In schools now we are asking kids what classes they think they should take, and we are letting them have more responsibility than we ever have, which allows them to think they have the wisdom of an adult. They don't.

 

Another thing is parents dont know what their kids are into. I have heard several times that kids are rebelling against helicopter parenting, which was actually not a thing when I was growing up, it was called responsible parenting. My kid wont do shit without me knowing about it, I will know where he is at, who he is with, and when they will be there. My son is aware that there are consequences for lying to me about any of those. He is a child, and I am the adult. We are not equals, and you will not be treated as such until you earn it. And," Well dad, I am growing and I need room to make mistakes and test boundaries, or else...." is not good enough. I am all for kids having fun but parents need to be more involved with kids. Yes, I am up his ass all the time, but I also do other things fathers dont do anymore, like take their sons fishing, play catch, talk to him, lay on the floor and play legos, and actually parent.

 

I also think the internet and the youtube addictions are out of control and are exposing other sad sack kids to one another where stupid ideas get hatched. i think the schools need to take off the gloves and take schools back instead of just handing them to kids because that is what a PC society dictates. I think we need to have armed guards and metal detectors at every entrance. I think we need a school shooting response team in large cities who have helicopters to transport them to a an active shooter scenario quickly. I think doing some of these would help. Then again, maybe they would not. Who knows? None of us.

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Metal detectors really wouldn't hurt. They might not stop 100% of the cases but it's an overwhelming roadblock / deterrent. 2-3 armed security guards per school. And lastly, I'd like to see some resources go into mental health awareness. Make depression treatment / counseling more readily available. Let the desperate, mentally hurt individuals be heard and be helped in ways that can be done. In addition to this, have a few of these counseling / security personell periodically scroll through the students social media accounts from time to time. Look for rage-filled, violent, dark posts that are being posted and reach out to the individual. Check up on them & see how they're doing and offer a few pairs of ears.

 

The reality is there is no quick fix or any ONE action that's going to reverse the reality of this. But we can definetely make it more challenging and less likely of an incident to happen. It's very unfortunate to have to accept that it isn't 100% preventable but these would be huge steps in the right direction as opposed to continuing to just :shrug: it off every time.

Edited by BC

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There are about 1000 things that need to be done before you start seeing a drastic shift in the amount of gun related deaths in schools. Reducing the total amount of guns in the country, making the public education system better so kids develop morality and not just test taking skills. Making it harder for guns to get into schools to begin with. Spending money on homes and infrastructure to reduce crime in the area, etc etc. There are so many things that can be done to alleviate the stress of this problem, which clearly no lawmakers care about. The other option which I'm sure would cause an immediate flareup is a congress shooting. Just once have the politicians fear for their lives like so many children have and see just how quickly things would change.

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The idea of putting a block on legislation for 2 weeks after a mass shooting is the GOP party line anytime anyone brings up any sort of gun control. The sad fact of the matter is that this is simply impossible to do because there are too many mass shootings. (That's besides the fact that two weeks is hardly enough time for people not to use emotional responses.)

 

It's another idea that sounds good on paper but is simply impossible to carry out in the real world.

 

The "we dont ban cars after DUIs" is another GOP party line and another idea that is a false equivalency and a strawman to boot. No one is saying we should ban guns, but having someone required to prove they can operate a gun, have a license to carry one, etc., exactly as we do with cars, is a great idea. Not to mention we have updated cars safety protocols over and over again over the years so that there are a great deal less fatalities when we have a car accident.

 

My idea is let's try what has worked well in other countries. I know Fox News and the Trump administration would tell you otherwise, but the facts are that gun control works and works well in many other countries. To put this into some concrete points:

 

First, to use Ngata's statement about cars, let's have anyone who wants to own a gun have to take a course on gun safety- including ways to keep minors from getting their hands on them- and have to pass a test on gun safety at the end of the course. We could also use this course to give a basic evaluation of the customer's mental health in some manner, so that at least we don't let a complete crazy buy a gun. In addition, let's say every five years you need to retake some sort of test in order to continue to be allowed the license to carry a gun.

 

Second, let's also enforce laws we already have on the books and make new ones as necessary to keep semi-automatic rifles and especially automatic rifles from the hands of any citizen. You do not need these to hunt. If you wish to own one, perhaps we could have another license for that as well as a stricter test, and maybe you are required to keep that gun at the shooting range. Or possibly the ammunition for it at the shooting range. Along with this idea, gun dealers that sell guns to people without doing a background check or without checking for gun licenses should be fined. If they continue to ignore the new laws on this, their business should eventually be shut down.

 

Third, and least likely to happen, let's get the NRA out of politics. The NRA has become a bully, throwing its political weight around to try to get discounts from everything from Delta Airlines to Yeti coolers. They have several politicians on their payroll. They have completely and utterly abandoned the principles of responsible gun ownership to blaming everything else for shootings- up to and including the amount of doors in a school, was their latest excuse- to simply owning guns for the sake of owning guns.

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My inner liberal raged after Parkland, but my inner conservative rages after this shooting.

 

We are raising a generation of softees who don't have coping skills. This kid was bullied and his romantic interests were spurned by at least one student he shot. And he didn't have any better way to deal with it than to kill a bunch of people. That's a problem.

 

I have many more thoughts, but that's the one I want to convey the most right now, for better or worse. I don't know if parents or social media or something else is to blame.

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Shut your fucking mouth and leave this thread if you have nothing decent to add to discussion.

But like...he is an active member and black blah blah. The dud is an ignorant piece of shit who has nothing of value to contribute to the world, which is why the day he dies nobody will miss him, and his legacy will never leave the bowels of the infested lazy ass, Bongo playing, tinfoil hat wearing shit shows. It will be looked at as the day that the world got better using the age-old addition through subtraction method. I guess all I'm really trying to say, is just put him on ignore and leave them alone. This site has become so much more enjoyable now that I have ignored all the Hypocrites, and people who had nothing of value to the world. If you want civil discourse, don't expect it from these kind of people.

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My inner liberal raged after Parkland, but my inner conservative rages after this shooting.

 

We are raising a generation of softees who don't have coping skills. This kid was bullied and his romantic interests were spurned by at least one student he shot. And he didn't have any better way to deal with it than to kill a bunch of people. That's a problem.

 

I have many more thoughts, but that's the one I want to convey the most right now, for better or worse. I don't know if parents or social media or something else is to blame.

This, it really has very little to do with guns, and everything to do with people being soft, and having no exposure to coping mechanisms that will help them get through teenage angst. Everybody's going to get rejected, I don't care who you are, and most people are equipped with enough coping mechanisms to be able to deal with it, but in a society that coddle's everyone, less and less people are growing up with that.

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I'm with SteVo on this particular individual in Texas. How fucking pathetic do you have to be emotionally to get this point? I mean, there were other clues that he was fucking weird, like wearing a trench coat every single day.

 

In Texas.

 

Like a girl was going to want to go out with the stinky, weird creep .What did he reasonably expect in the first place?

These young men that commit mass violence over girls/women were awkward and dejected long before they became violent, and quite honestly, schools tend to ignore these individuals as opposed to seeking them out and helping them learn how to communicate. The kid is responsible for the act, but if we don't acknowledge our own failures as a society that result in these kinds of individuals developing in the first place, we'll never come to a solution.

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I am open to a lot of ideas... But punishing the vast majority of gun owners who are responsible, law-abiding citizens is definitely NOT the way to go. Not saying anyone here is proposing that, just saying it.

I still think by and large, this is a mental health issue -- which I think even ties in a bit to the discussion about this most recent kid being "soft". People just don't know how to deal with reality. They don't teach that kind of stuff in schools (not in mine, anyway). And a lot of these people are an anti-psychotic medications.

It's easy to say that we should ban semi-automatic weapons. But guess what... People are gonna shoot people with bolt action rifles. Ban those... people are gonna shot people with handguns.. Ban those and every single gun in existence. People are still gonna get guns and shoot other people.

We need education and a culture shift more than anything.

People buying firearms and different calibers and different classifications of guns should have to go through some sort of evaluation or testing first off to prove that they can handle the weapon... what to do under a variety of circumstances, etc.All with a trained professional. I'm talking more than like an hour long course.

Also, people who are hearing voices in their head (just as an example) shouldn't be able to purchase guns. But even then, those people still know people with guns.

 

And I don't know how it would work... but if you're being reported by the FBI for threats of violence or wanting to shoot up a school... Something needs to be done. I don't want to hear a story about that person shooting up a school a month later because the FBI did nothing. Objectively speaking... yeah, that's hard. A lot of resources first off. Second off, it wouldn't be difficult to fake accusations and if you get put on a No Gun list... probably not gonna be easy to get off.

 

There really is no perfect solution.

 

 

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I'm with SteVo on this particular individual in Texas. How fucking pathetic do you have to be emotionally to get this point? I mean, there were other clues that he was fucking weird, like wearing a trench coat every single day.

 

In Texas.

 

Like a girl was going to want to go out with the stinky, weird creep .What did he reasonably expect in the first place?

 

These young men that commit mass violence over girls/women were awkward and dejected long before they became violent, and quite honestly, schools tend to ignore these individuals as opposed to seeking them out and helping them learn how to communicate. The kid is responsible for the act, but if we don't acknowledge our own failures as a society that result in these kinds of individuals developing in the first place, we'll never come to a solution.

 

Part of his emotional intolerance probably came from being called a stinky weird creep on a daily basis for 19 years. Kids are cruel. Not saying his actions were appropriate or justified.... But shaming people for being different than us isn't exactly the way to inspire confidence in each other.

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The idea of putting a block on legislation for 2 weeks after a mass shooting is the GOP party line anytime anyone brings up any sort of gun control. The sad fact of the matter is that this is simply impossible to do because there are too many mass shootings. (That's besides the fact that two weeks is hardly enough time for people not to use emotional responses.)

 

It's another idea that sounds good on paper but is simply impossible to carry out in the real world.

 

The "we dont ban cars after DUIs" is another GOP party line and another idea that is a false equivalency and a strawman to boot. No one is saying we should ban guns, but having someone required to prove they can operate a gun, have a license to carry one, etc., exactly as we do with cars, is a great idea. Not to mention we have updated cars safety protocols over and over again over the years so that there are a great deal less fatalities when we have a car accident.

 

My idea is let's try what has worked well in other countries. I know Fox News and the Trump administration would tell you otherwise, but the facts are that gun control works and works well in many other countries. To put this into some concrete points:

 

First, to use Ngata's statement about cars, let's have anyone who wants to own a gun have to take a course on gun safety- including ways to keep minors from getting their hands on them- and have to pass a test on gun safety at the end of the course. We could also use this course to give a basic evaluation of the customer's mental health in some manner, so that at least we don't let a complete crazy buy a gun. In addition, let's say every five years you need to retake some sort of test in order to continue to be allowed the license to carry a gun.

 

Second, let's also enforce laws we already have on the books and make new ones as necessary to keep semi-automatic rifles and especially automatic rifles from the hands of any citizen. You do not need these to hunt. If you wish to own one, perhaps we could have another license for that as well as a stricter test, and maybe you are required to keep that gun at the shooting range. Or possibly the ammunition for it at the shooting range. Along with this idea, gun dealers that sell guns to people without doing a background check or without checking for gun licenses should be fined. If they continue to ignore the new laws on this, their business should eventually be shut down.

 

Third, and least likely to happen, let's get the NRA out of politics. The NRA has become a bully, throwing its political weight around to try to get discounts from everything from Delta Airlines to Yeti coolers. They have several politicians on their payroll. They have completely and utterly abandoned the principles of responsible gun ownership to blaming everything else for shootings- up to and including the amount of doors in a school, was their latest excuse- to simply owning guns for the sake of owning guns.

 

There is a lot to be said about what has or hasn't worked in other countries. I'm not at all opposed to legislation if it's in any way reasonable.

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Just ignore PhilIdiot FFS. Dude is as smart as a box of cocoa puffs and thinks everything is illuminati. No point even engaging with him.

 

 

 

 

 

I'm actually a fan of arming teachers. I think if they are willing to go through getting proper firearms training and take the burden of handling a gun, it would be silly to restrict them. Just throwing out a lowball number, but I'd be willing to bet that at least 20% of teachers in America own a gun. Why not let them keep it on their person at the school in case of an active shooter? I'd rather bet on 20 armed staff members over a single school resource officer. It's not like you're forcing guns into the hands of teachers. I bet a fair amount would be completely down to take their guns to school.

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This, it really has very little to do with guns, and everything to do with people being soft, and having no exposure to coping mechanisms that will help them get through teenage angst. Everybody's going to get rejected, I don't care who you are, and most people are equipped with enough coping mechanisms to be able to deal with it, but in a society that coddle's everyone, less and less people are growing up with that.

 

I don't think it's just because younger people are coddled. It's more complex than that. There are certainly ways that cushioning kids from reality can harm their ability to cope with what will come, but I think it's a case of their caregivers and role models not demonstrating these skills. This doesn't need to involve abuse, but rather a breakdown in communication between the young and their parents. If a kid doesn't feel comfortable speaking with his parents about these issues, it's something that needs to be addressed, because how can they learn to cope with them if they don't express those feelings?

 

I want to be clear, I'm not for all that lovey dovey nonsense. Our emotions are reactions to the environment around us, and we effectively have no control over that. Our brain learns to interpret things as we go, and it's an extremely intense process once those areas of the brain start developing. Expecting a kid to be able to self-regulate their emotions is ridiculous and damaging. Coddling them and making them comfortable at every turn will reduce their ability to adapt to their environment. Parents are supposed to be there to validate the kids experiences at first, and then gradually give them more freedom to explore things on their own. Some people I know say they can speak about whatever it is they are feeling with their parents and siblings and not feel any shame or fear; I cannot relate to that at all, and frankly the irrational cynic in me thinks they are making that up to look good for everyone else. As a kid, I had no idea how to handle my already very intense emotions, and all I could do was try to shut them down so they weren't overwhelming.

 

I think these mass shootings are the extreme (x5) fringe manifestations of emotional dysregulation. Most of the cases I have read, these kids grew up in less than ideal situations. Some of them had tumultuous parental relationships. I can look at my own experiences and perspectives growing up in a suburban area, in a middle class family, and weak connections with my parents and relate them to their own. I was clearly never in a situation where I reached this point, but I also understand that what I experienced is nothing compared to some. Isolation and rejection, mixed with a complete inability to process those emotions (who was there to teach them? Seems they all lacked adequate role models) can result in so many different cases, and unfortunately in some cases it can result in the individual projecting their experiences outward in violent ways.

 

There is so little empathy for anyone anymore, and I say that fully knowing that empathy can be distorted for horrible things. I think if people spent the time to understand why these people felt compelled to do this, and then why they were even in a situation to feel compelled to do that, they would make more progress on these types of discussions. What I see all over FB is people throwing talking points at each other. It's not even a discussion or exchange of ideas, it's just two angry people throwing insults and rhetoric that millions of other people are quoting in their own little tirades. These shooters do horrible things, and I am not calling for compassion and forgiveness, but merely suggesting that trying to understand how they saw the world could do a lot in helping us address societal issues that result in these events.

Edited by OSUViking
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I don't think it's just because younger people are coddled. It's more complex than that. There are certainly ways that cushioning kids from reality can harm their ability to cope with what will come, but I think it's a case of their caregivers and role models not demonstrating these skills. This doesn't need to involve abuse, but rather a breakdown in communication between the young and their parents. If a kid doesn't feel comfortable speaking with his parents about these issues, it's something that needs to be addressed, because how can they learn to cope with them if they don't express those feelings?

 

I want to be clear, I'm not for all that lovey dovey nonsense. Our emotions are reactions to the environment around us, and we effectively have no control over that. Our brain learns to interpret things as we go, and it's an extremely intense process once those areas of the brain start developing. Expecting a kid to be able to self-regulate their emotions is ridiculous and damaging. Coddling them and making them comfortable at every turn will reduce their ability to adapt to their environment. Parents are supposed to be there to validate the kids experiences at first, and then gradually give them more freedom to explore things on their own. Some people I know say they can speak about whatever it is they are feeling with their parents and siblings and not feel any shame or fear; I cannot relate to that at all, and frankly the irrational cynic in me thinks they are making that up to look good for everyone else. As a kid, I had no idea how to handle my already very intense emotions, and all I could do was try to shut them down so they weren't overwhelming.

 

I think these mass shootings are the extreme (x5) fringe manifestations of emotional dysregulation. Most of the cases I have read, these kids grew up in less than ideal situations. Some of them had tumultuous parental relationships. I can look at my own experiences and perspectives growing up in a suburban area, in a middle class family, and weak connections with my parents and relate them to their own. I was clearly never in a situation where I reached this point, but I also understand that what I experienced is nothing compared to some. Isolation and rejection, mixed with a complete inability to process those emotions (who was there to teach them? Seems they all lacked adequate role models) can result in so many different cases, and unfortunately in some cases it can result in the individual projecting their experiences outward in violent ways.

 

There is so little empathy for anyone anymore, and I say that fully knowing that empathy can be distorted for horrible things. I think if people spent the time to understand why these people felt compelled to do this, and then why they were even in a situation to feel compelled to do that, they would make more progress on these types of discussions. What I see all over FB is people throwing talking points at each other. It's not even a discussion or exchange of ideas, it's just two angry people throwing insults and rhetoric that millions of other people are quoting in their own little tirades. These shooters do horrible things, and I am not calling for compassion and forgiveness, but merely suggesting that trying to understand how they saw the world could do a lot in helping us address societal issues that result in these events.

 

I agree with you, and I do think a huge burden to bear is on my generation and the way we are raising our kids, and the way we interact with them. I think kids to a huge extent are coddled though. I see it in schools all the time where teachers are afraid to make a mistake, and there is a complete lack of accountability. I think in a lot of ways tort reform could help in the sense that if there are less frivolous lawsuits in schools because little Timmy feels this way or that way about his midterm, it would allow teachers to have a more direct role in discipline. I also think communication with parents between schools and the home are essential. My sons school uses it as a threat, they dont actually call which is incredible to me.

 

I think another huge part is that parents wont tell their kids when they are being stupid. WE have this society where kids are supposed to "be free to be who they are" when in reality they haven't figured though out until their 20's for most people. It is important for kids to develop thick skin, because the rest of the world does not give a damn about you, nor should they. This world is not some playground once you graduate, it is competitive, cruel, and incredibly rewarding and I fear we are equipping kids to live in the world we wish we had, not the actual world we live in. Kids need to be told they are not all important and their can definitely be room for people to think they are, well, whatever people think they are. The fact that kids think whatever other kids think they are is what defines them is a lack or self respect.

 

We should also think about telling kids that other kids may be right. If kids call you a smelly creep, you may be a smelly creep. It is ok to tell kids that they may in fact need to change who they are currently, because if you are a stinky creep, your prospects will not improve.

 

This is to me has little to nothing to do with guns. You need the second amendment to protect the first. I think people approach it from one of two ways. Either we ban guns (stupid as hell), or we let all people have whatever they want with no enforcement of the laws (equally stupid). A gun is an inanimate object, it does nothing without action from an external force. WE need to analyze what makes that inanimate object pick it up and kill other human beings.

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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wLvsYWC1ofA

 

1:10 , reporter says- I heard you had just done a mass casualty drill to prepare for something like this a few weeks ago.

.. thats funny because the same thing was said about the Florida shooting where the school had done drills about 2 weeks before theirs.

3:49, he says- we always prepare for these Drills.. we always prepare for these drills.

 

the first guy doesnst look like he's involved in a tragedy what so ever..looks kind of silly,happy, or trying not to laugh.

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lol at deleting my 4 intelligent posts. You are simply children who cant confront real issues.

 

 

Just ignore PhilIdiot FFS. Dude is as smart as a box of cocoa puffs and thinks everything is illuminati. No point even engaging with him.

 

prove me wrong.......

because you believe media, isnt proof.

I am currently more intelligent then you will ever be. I certainly know the difference between a fact and a belief better then you do.

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Lately I've been thinking our rigid and dumb societal structures have failed to keep up with technology. It's also a little bit of hindsight is 20/20. When you design your education system in the 1800's to produce obedient cogs in a machine, they're not equipped to handle technology. We have almost all human knowledge in our fucking pocket. Look at what we do with it.

 

This also has to do with mass shootings though because that combined with the fact that most families have to have both parents working. I think there are a lot more people out there with no social skills, they don't have friends, they can't get pussy because they don't know how and that's a recipe for disaster. I think OSU can confirm that and explain it much better than I, but these mass shootings are a symptom of many complicated issues. I think it's not coincidental that they both trend in the same direction since Columbine.

 

Also a tin foil hat theory that could easily be true with what we know about my ultra and project Northwoods, annnnd the Snowden revaluations but I think FBI could be targeting people like this online and getting at least some of these people to do this shit. Idk if you guys saw that story on Vice about the FBI trying to convince some dude that became Muslim in jail to set off a bomb in Florida but you should check that out.

Edited by seanbrock

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lol at deleting my 4 intelligent posts. You are simply children who cant confront real issues.

 

 

prove me wrong.......

because you believe media, isnt proof.

I am currently more intelligent then you will ever be. I certainly know the difference between a fact and a belief better then you do.

An extreme unlikelihood is no more likely simply because it can't be proven wrong without drastic action. I'm not a medical professional who can take you to the morgue in Santa Fe.

 

As for deleting your posts, I can and will. So long as they are disrespectful of the dead and their loved ones and so long as they offer nothing whatsoever to the conversation.

 

Go find a new bridge.

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You have to ignore him. If you don't the amount of stupid confounds and consumes you. Most people want to help the less fortunate in hopes once they know better, they do better. It is a lost cause with the man and the ignore feature is an amazing remedy.

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The other option which I'm sure would cause an immediate flareup is a congress shooting. Just once have the politicians fear for their lives like so many children have and see just how quickly things would change.

Steve Scalise got shot at a softball game and nothing happened. Granted, it didn't happen at congress, but still

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