lolMaine

[OSUViking 505]

And I think kids can handle parents not treating them perfectly. They've been doing it throughout human history. Puberty blockers early is damaging if their mind comes out of the phase.

They've been needlessly doing it because we didn't know any better. Saying we shouldn't fix shitty parenting when it pops up because it's happened throughout history is ridiculous. It is absolutely damaging for parents to treat their kids poorly. For all you say about not wanting irrational emotions deciding things it seems you have no intention of supporting ways to avoid things getting that bad in the first place. A hostile or toxic home environment almost guarantees some form of traumatic response for the kids unless they benefit from like 1 in 100 odds where they don't internalize such circumstances.

[BwareDWare94 723]

They've been needlessly doing it because we didn't know any better. Saying we shouldn't fix shitty parenting when it pops up because it's happened throughout history is ridiculous. It is absolutely damaging for parents to treat their kids poorly. For all you say about not wanting irrational emotions deciding things it seems you have no intention of supporting ways to avoid things getting that bad in the first place. A hostile or toxic home environment almost guarantees some form of traumatic response for the kids unless they benefit from like 1 in 100 odds where they don't internalize such circumstances.

 

You're projecting my stance on these particular issues to mean abandonment of helping children. That is most definitely not my stance. I just think allowing a transition before a mind is developed is absolutely asinine, bordering on child abuse because of it's potentially devastating consequences. In my opinion it would be better to wait until 18. You can love your child who is experiencing gender dysphoria without allowing them to go through a major life change. As a matter of fact, it's probably more loving to talk them out of going through it at a young age with the statistics while continuing to treat them well. Like I said, let them make the decision when they're adults.

 

As for bad homes...you're assuming most parents with children suffering from Gender Dysphoria are bad parents. That's absurd.

 

You don't need to tell me about how bad homes can badly influence people later in life. I had my own experiences that crippled me emotionally in a lot of ways. I don't personally believe my mind developed past those abuses until after I was 25. Obviously my individual experience doesn't warrant or create my perspectives, but I am allowed to observe other people and statistics and come to my own conclusions.. Many of my friends had similar or worse experiences (not that abuse should be quantified--I'm talking about the difference between emotional/verbal abuse and things like severe physical abuse or sexual abuse--I know people on both ends of that horrible spectrum) . Hell, someone who was one of my closest friends for 2 years here was severely abused by multiple individuals in their family growing up and it presented in their actions and decision-making. You don't have to tell me these things are problems, man. In no way am I saying we should abandon these people. Not at all.

 

That being said, I think your logic of blaming parenting most of all is flawed in and of itself. There are a lot of shitty parents, but there are as many or more, maybe much more, adequate to great parents. No two parents are the same. There's no concrete way to raise children. Honestly, we basically have the most obvious guidelines like don't abuse your children you twats and try to strike a balance between nurturing/helping them and allowing them to become self-sufficient.

 

Well, here's another thread. Parenting thread incoming.

Edited July 14, 2018 by BwareDWare94

[OSUViking 505]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Attachment_theory?wprov=sfla1

 

I fully admit I can take things too far like anyone. There are people who make bad decisions with good tools provided to them in their youth. They aren't common, if they were then there would be no credibility to attachment theory which is simply not the case. Effective parenting plays an enormous role in how functional an individual is. They can find ways to cope without it, but it provides obstacles that can be avoided with proper education on how to raise kids (or more specifically, how to connect with and guide each individual child).

 

 

 

Parents are shitty when they invalidate a kid's experiences. Take a completely different but still stigmatized concept in pedophilia. What does it accomplish to shame them for having those thoughts? Acting on them? That's sick, it's a crime as it should be and should be heavily punished. I'd reckon most pedophiles don't act on those thoughts, they're just left to deal with them on their own.

 

We can't control how we feel. No one can. Suggesting we should have some form of control over processes in the brain that are still beyond concrete understanding is unreasonable (again, there's a difference between having feelings and acting on them). There are ways to mitigate the intensity of feelings, such as leading a life with strong physical health to reduce the prevalence or severity of mental health symptoms. It seems intuitive to me that gender dysphoria is more complex than working out more or cleaning up sleeping and eating habits. So if a parent comes along and shames their kid for struggling with those thoughts, or for struggling with thoughts about their sexuality, or for struggling with feeling a certain way about anything, yes I think they're bad parents. That's not an effective way to teach people how to constructively process their emotions, which again are a pretty important aspect of being social creatures.

 

I interpreted Favres post as saying that parents don't need to go as far as puberty blockers or sex reassignment surgery, but to validate the kid's experiences so they can explore them with someone they trust. That's effective parenting. I interpreted your post afterwards as saying that they should just deal with it if they grow up in a toxic home, because people have done that for years. My counter to this is that it's ridiculous to suggest people should just put up with toxicity of any kind, especially when there's really no excuse for someone to raise a kid in that kind of environment nowadays. There's not an argument of "well we didn't know the effects of it...", when basically everyone has the Internet and whatever information they want in their pocket, along with online resources that help point people to the solid information.

Edited July 14, 2018 by OSUViking

[Omerta+ 1,206]

Lol, damn man. It sounds like you have issues with either your parents or parents in general. I can get on board with some of what you say in this topic and a lot of it overall, but I think your views on parenting are a little wonky. No disrespect or anything.

 

Take for instance you can invalidate children's experiences and in a positive way. I would even take it so far as to say you have to in order to develop morals for the kid, even the basic ones.

 

Take stealing for instance. The lure of getting something immediately with no work is awesome. Instant gratification is powerful motivation in kids because they can't rationalize the benefits or hard work and the efficacy of earning something. Or that pride is much more powerful than instant gratification. As an example. I'm again next yourself as a parent of a kid who sleeps over at a friend's house and comes back home with a new toy you know you have not paid for and the kid he stayed with said it was missing.

 

You're kid feels good about it because he has a new toy and he did not have to clean his room or behave or do anything to get it other than steal. So do you validate that experience and acknowledge stealing as a good feeling ?

 

Or an even more common one, what about if your child lies to you? He gets to do all of the dirty deeds that you wants to, and he doesn't have to face reprisal is because he tells an alternate story to suit his narrative. Or he leaves out the whole truth and cast himself as the victim in his story, even though you know damn good and well that he was an active participant in whatever happened. Do you tell him that yes line get you out of it, and that the feeling of freedom from lying is valid instead of the prison lies eventually become. Or do we just let them build a prison of lies or get to prison on their own because we validate their experience.

 

What about all these pussys with a victim complex because now body told them the universe doesn't revolve around them. Do we validate their victimhood ?

 

I would argue validating anything and everything is part of the reason this country is such a shit show. Parents won't tell their kids the truth about life and they go out into the world entitled and thinking therest of the world should cater to their bullshit.

 

Valid is in the word validate. We should only validate those experiences that are valid and applicable to them being well adjusted individuals who are not going to suckle the tit of this country and then bitch.

[Favre4Ever+ 4,476]

I think the disconnect here is just semantics. Support, validate, etc. I think most people are in the ballpark of finding a balance in parenting -- we're just getting caught up in words like support or validate (the fault of no one).

 

So let's try to flesh it out more.

Maybe it's a bad example / way to pursue this discussion but... Say you are the parent of a 12-14 year old boy who tells you he thinks or feels like a girl.

What do you do? How do you react? How do you move forward? What is the 'right' way to approach that scenario in you rmind(s)?

[Omerta+ 1,206]

Personally, I ask them why they feel that way ? If it is something external like clothes or something I would wait. I would suggest they give it a bit more time and see of it persists. If it does revisit it to see if it is external still. If it is something that they feel is external and they just feel that way, then you have a longer discussion.

 

If it is internal hit the particulars. Ask them how long have they felt that way and how they feel about their own feelings. Make sure they know it is a serious conversation so they should be clear about how they feel, but make sure they know I love them. Tell them it is ok to feel that way, but to be clear so we can start to change a few things if they choose. If they are saying how they feel as though they are born in the wrong gender, and they are clear on gender and that they want to change, I let them. I would ask if there are things we can change in the household to make them more comfortable.

 

If it is within reason do my best to accommodate that and let them live life as a man/woman, but make sure it is a genuine experience. If they choose male then make them do things required of men like register for the secret service, go to make restrooms etc so they can see the good and bad of both.

 

I would proceed like that but if they wanted puberty blockers or any surgery I personally would not foot the bill until roughly 26. If they have left my house and lived life as a man and at 26 said" hey Dad, I have lived this life and my mind is developed and this is still what I want but I can't afford it, can you help with the cost of transitioning?" Then the answer is, Sure! I love you kid.

 

I have no problem with transgender as long as they are morally upright people, and honest with themselves, and aren't entitled than we won't have issues. As long as they don't allow it to become all that they are. If the sum total of who they are is Transgender then I fucked the dog. I would hope that would be but a fraction of them. I would hope they could say they were people of integrity, hard working, and loved fiercely. I guess I am saying if they could look themselves in the mirror and be proud of who they are I am good with it.

 

As to the semantics I did not see it that way, I saw it as a clear statement and I don't want it to come on as a dick, if I did I apologize OSU, that is not what I intended.

Edited July 15, 2018 by Omerta

[OSUViking 505]

As to the semantics I did not see it that way, I saw it as a clear statement and I don't want it to come on as a dick, if I did I apologize OSU, that is not what I intended.

 

I don't think that came off like a dick at all. Bware's source about the statistics of transitioning was enough for me to step back and recognize there's still a lot I need to learn about with regards to these procedures and how people experience them. Like I said, I can recognize that I went a bit far and took his post to mean something that it probably didn't, but I strongly think that the way a parent handles this situation will have major impacts on how the person adapts, regardless of if they transition or not. No one will have the same approach but like F4E said, the basic formula is pretty simple... just love and support the kids, sounds like your plan covers that pretty well. At the end of the day what I think about parenting means jack shit to the people who actually have to go about imparting skills and demonstrating understanding to their kids; they have to find what works for them, it's just been my (anecdotal) experience that many people don't handle these things in very effective ways.

 

EDIT: I will also own that I do have a lot of issues with my parents. In fact not too long ago I kind of hit a "gold mine" of emotional turmoil that I'd been pinning down for so long. I don't view my parents as bad people but the flurry of emotions and whatnot that I didn't let myself feel for a long time have made it hard to stay calm, rational, objective, etc. It's on me to keep that in check and I'll try to work on that in the future. No excuse to misrepresent people's arguments or to take things too far, so I apologize.

Edited July 15, 2018 by OSUViking

[Favre4Ever+ 4,476]

And to be clear, the semantics comment wasn't just aimed at you Ngata. Just reading the last page or so, I thought most of us were saying the same things, we all just kind of got caught up in the wording of the posts too much.

 

As for the question I posed, I like your response. I don't think I would really differ much. Seems like OSU is on board too which makes me believe I was on the right path with the semantics comment.

[OSUViking 505]

Yes, I think I need to take a step back and calm down for a bit too. Too trigger happy with the thoughts that have been bouncing around lately. It's an inevitable stage in going from incompetent to competent but it's not the most pleasant experience in the world.

[BwareDWare94 723]

Well first of all you talk to your child lovingly. You don't treat them differently. Secondly you present them with the statistics and explain that it's not all that uncommon and likely a phase. You then ask them if they'd like to talk to a medical professional about it. You go from there while continuing to love, nurture, and support your child.