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  1. Today
  2. RazorStar

    Historical QB Rankings

    10. John Elway (Denver Broncos 1983-1998) 2nd Place Broncos QB Career Record 159-83-1 (65.64%) 13th out of 102 Record in Games with Good Defense 119-25-1 (82.41%) 30th out of 102 Record in Games with Bad Defense 40-58-0 (40.82%) 7th out of 102 Percentage of Games with Good Defense 145/243 (59.67%) 21st out of 102 (+11) Wins above Average in a 16 Game Season (1.957) From one comeback king to another, let's talk about John Elway, the highest rated QB with less than 2 wins above the average starter. So you know, 10th place overall. John Elway is the most emblematic player of the team he played for, looking like a horse meant that he could only reasonably play for two teams, three if you're stretching the definition of a horse. Luckily for Elway, the Colts were planning to take him first overall, as the headliner of the 1983 Draft class. Elway and his lawyer parents wanted nothing to do with a team that was already making plans to leave Baltimore and refused to play for them. He was traded for the 4th overall pick, a backup QB, and a first rounder in the 1984 draft. Needless to say, the Colts got fleeced by the Broncos, but it's not like they had any other choice, since Elway could always refuse the NFL and go play baseball instead. In any case, Elway became the starter immediately, though he went through growing pains in his rookie season, and was off and on again with Steve DeBerg his entire rookie year. The Broncos made the postseason at 9-7, but were swept away by the Seahawks who had some consistency to the offense. Elway was made the full time starter in 1984, and on the back of a strong defensive performance that season, the Broncos went 13-3, and had the second seed in the AFC. However Elway would throw a pair of interceptions, and lose to the Steelers 24-17 in the divisional round. The Broncos would lean on Elway a lot more in the coming seasons, and he'd develop his reputation as a comeback artist, leading 6 4th quarter comebacks in 1985, as the Broncos made it to an 11-5 record. However, they missed the playoffs due to tiebreakers, being one of the few 11-5 teams in league history to do so. Elway would again go 11-5 in 1986, and playing with a bit more efficiency, the Broncos actually made it to the playoffs that year. Though Elway did not have a great game against the Patriots, he played his best in the second half, leading a comeback in a 22-17 victory. Then he begin his reputation as a Browns killer, facing the Browns in the conference championship, leading "The Drive" to bring the game to overtime, and then leading another so Rich Karlis could kick the game winning field goal. The Giants would end Elway's first super bowl shot, as Phil Simms went ham, and the Giants defense contained the hard to stop Elway. The Broncos would be back in 1987, even though Elway missed a few games early in the season due to injury. With a 10-4-1 record, Elway and the Broncos put up 34 on the Houston Oilers in the divisional round, and then against the Browns, they won in a game known for Earnest Byner fumbling on the goal line in a 38-33 offensive shootout. Elway would lose his second super bowl, as after putting up a 10-0 lead on the Redskins, they were shut out as Timmy Smith and Ricky Sanders killed them putting up 35 points in the second quarter on the way to a 42-10 victory. Elway won the MVP that year though, so that was cool. The Broncos took 1988 off to go 8-8, turn the ball over a lot, but made sure they were back and ready in 1989. Despite Elway spending most of the 80's being about 1:1 in his TD:INT ratio, the Broncos were still pulling wins out of their asses, and managed to finish 1989 with an 11-5 record, a record which would have had them barely make the wildcard in the NFC, but be the first seed in the AFC by one and a half games. They would face the Steelers in a back and forth game that was decided by a 80 yard touchdown drive in the 4th quarter. They would beat the Browns in the AFC Championship for the third time, and then proceed to get mollywhopped by one of the greatest iterations of the 49ers dynasty in a 55-10 beating. 1990 would mark a big step back, as the Broncos had their first losing season since Elway's rookie season. They went 5-11, and despite Elway throwing for 3500 yards for the first time in his career, the defense was awful. The Broncos would rebound in 1991, and go 12-4. The Defense would go from bottom five to top five and the Broncos would be the second seed in the AFC. They played Warren Moon and the Oilers in a thrilling 26-24 game, where even though the Broncos were down 2 points after scoring a touchdown, they refused to go for 2 instead opting to try and get the ball back to get another field goal to win. Dan Reeves was not a very smart coach despite his years upon years in the league. In the AFC Championship it would be a battle of defenses, and Elway was the first to make a mistake, throwing a interception returned for a touchdown that helped seal a 10-7 victory for the Bills. 1992 would mark a turning point for the Broncos, as they would draft Tommy Maddox in the first round to put the pressure on Elway to get them over the hump. Elway struggled that year after taking a shoulder injury 10 games into the season, and his relationship with the conserative coach was fraying. Tommy Maddox was brought in while Elway recovered, and turned their 7-3 start into an 8-8 finish. Elway threw 17 INTs to only 10 TD's, and the poor performance got Dan Reeves sacked. 1993 would see defensive coordinator Wade Phillips take over the head coaching job, and Jim Fassel the offense. That finalyl gave Elway free reign to sling it like his contemporaries in Marino and Kelly. And sling it he did, throwing for over 4000 yards, often finding hall of fame tight end Shannon Sharpe. The Broncos would lose a lot of close games that season, but make it to the playoffs at 9-7. However they were quickly dispatched by a hungry Raiders team that put up 42 points on them. 1994 also ended miserably, as Elway suffered a season ending knee injury to the Chiefs after taking the Broncos to a 7-6 record with a bottom 5 defense. His backup lost the last three games, and the Broncos missed the playoffs at 7-9, and Wade Phillips was fired. 1995 gave Elway his first offensive minded head coach, the young ballsy coordinator Mike Shanahan, who was known primarily for hating Al Davis, and helping Elway develop in his younger years as his offensive coordinator. The Broncos offense was developing quickly under his tutelage, as rookie runningback Terrell Davis ran for 1000 yards, and Ed McCaffrey and Anthony Miller emerged as receiving options beside Shannon Sharpe. They still went 8-8 that season, but the pieces for an offensive domination of the league were starting to form. The Broncos went 13-3 in 1996, good for the top seed in the AFC, but they were upset by the Jaguars in the divisional round, after Mark Brunell put up 30 on them. The Broncos were getting sick of playoff failure in Elway's time, and 1997 would be the season they finally broke through. They led the league in scoring offense that year, and were 6th in scoring defense, as Elway assembled his full suite of weapons. The Broncos went 12-4, which was only good enough for a wild-card that year, behind the 13-3 Chiefs. Still, they did their work even with the extra game, by first getting revenge on the Jaguars that beat them a year earlier 42-17, relying on the ground game to do their damage. They faced the AFC winning Chiefs in the divisional round, and after taking a 14-10 lead early in the 4th, the Broncos defense locked down Elvis Grbac and the Chiefs. The Broncos would beat the Steelers 24-21, after getting all of their points in the first half. And just like that, Elway was in the super bowl for the 4th time in his career, and he was up against Brett Favre and the defending super bowl champion Packers. They played in a back and forth struggle, but Elway wasn't winning the game with his passing prowess, instead relying on Terrell Davis to do the hard work, and when he needed to give up his body to make a key first down or a touchdown running the ball, he did it. The Broncos won 31-24, and Elway's status in NFL lore was cemented. So he did it one more time in 1998. Despite struggling with injuries throughout the season, the bevy of offensive weapons, and the Terrell Davis runs a train through your city tour meant that the Broncos were able to 14-2, after starting the season out 13-0. After losing to the Giants on a last minute comeback in week 15, they rested their starters for the postseason run to come. They would bully the Dolphins 38-3, as Davis ran for nearly 200 on them. Then they would put up 23 unanswered points on the Jets in the conference championship, after going down 10-0 in the third quarter. We were deprived of a Vikings / Broncos super bowl in 1998, but the Falcons were still a 14-2 team that season and just for a little while, maybe they had a chance to do something to the Broncos that day. But head coach Dan Reeves couldn't keep his dirty birds in line, who were riding high after upsetting the Vikings and just didn't show up in time for the super bowl. John Elway got his revenge on the coach who limited his offensive production in the name of conservatism, and won his second super bowl ring, along with the title of MVP, because the voters were pretty sympathetic to his story by that point, and had a reasonable argument for it. Elway retired the winningest player in NFL history, but that mark has since been surpassed by Brett Favre, Peyton Manning and Tom Brady. Elway is such an odd duck, because his numbers with Dan Reeves as a coach just weren't very good. The defenses he had most of those years were special though, and Elway seemed to play his best when the leash was taken off. It can be seen by his record when his defenses were poor, winning over 40% of those games meant it was nearly impossible to count his teams out of games until the clock struck zero. However he did have a propensity for making the big play rather than the safe one and that would kill him against the best of the best defenses. While his record in those games is still really fricking good, he's surpassed by a lot of guys who know when to fold a bad hand. But that's part of what made Elway an all time great. He has since become an executive for the Denver Broncos, and helped lure Peyton Manning to the team to try and win the city another super bowl. While his draft evaluation of QB's is garbage, at the very least he could play at a high level.
  3. RazorStar

    Historical QB Rankings

    11. Kurt Warner (Green Bay Packers 1994, St. Louis Rams 1998-2003, New York Giants 2004, Arizona Cardinals 2005-2009) 1st Place Rams and 1st Place Cardinals QB Career Record 78-49-0 (61.42%) 20th out of 102 Record in Games with Good Defense 54-12-0 (81.82%) 33rd out of 102 Record in Games with Bad Defense 24-37-0 (39.34%) 8th out of 102 Percentage of Games with Good Defense 66/127 (51.97%) 50th out of 102 (+39) Wins above Average in a 16 Game Season (1.873) Kurt Warner's career is a trip and a half, let me tell you. We all know the story, from stocking groceries, to winning super bowl MVP, making three super bowl appearances and ending his career with a hall of fame gold jacket. That much has been parroted so often by the sports media that I get sick of it, even though Kurt seems like a genuinely good dude. He had a few things go right for him to end up on this list, and I imagine spending your first four years developing your game in other leagues did a lot to keep his rookie lumps out of the NFL. By the time he took over in 1999, he wasn't just some rookie fresh out of the barn, he was a battle tested veteran, though he was throwing passes in Iowa and Amsterdam, not in NFL cities. Kurt Warner had three amazing years for the Rams, completing over 65% of his passes each season, throwing for over 8.7 yards per throw, and never losing more than three games in the regular season each time. If not for an injury and sudden defensive decline in 2000, the Rams could have easily made three straight super bowl appearances with Warner at the helm. However after the super bowl against the Patriots in 2001, Warner seemed to be shook. He spent his next two years in St. Louis battling injuries and terrible play as the greatest show on turf's time ended just as quickly as it had begun. He was brought to the Giants in 2004, but the plan was always to let Eli take over once he was ready. Eli was ready in 10 weeks, and Warner quickly found another team to hang onto. The Arizona Cardinals, who had failed on the Jake Plummer and Josh McCown experiments, and just needed somebody to take over for a season or two. Warner stuck around for a little longer than that, and he seemed to find his groove again in 2007, after spending a couple of years developing rapport with Larry Fitzgerald and Anquan Boldin. He took over for Matt Leinart in week 5 and never looked back. Though the Cardinals still were struggling to find wins, Warner took a team with a bottom 5 defense to an 8-8 record, and new coach Ken Whisenhunt liked what the veteran was doing and made him the starter ahead of the highly drafted Leinart. The defense was still utterly abysmal in 2008, but Kurt Warner and the offense seemed to be a revival of the greatest show on turf, except this time without a Marshall Faulk to make the run game go. Warner put up nearly 4600 yards, 30 TD's and took the Cardinals to a 9-7 record, good enough to win the NFC West that season. Warner and his weapons would not slow down, putting up 30 points against the Falcons in the wild-card round, then putting up 33 against the Panthers, where Jake Delhomme decided he wasn't cut out for the NFL anymore. They would play the Eagles in a tight 32-25 showdown in the conference championship, and after a 7 year hiatus, Warner was back in the super bowl. They played in one of the most entertaining super bowls against the Pittsburgh Steelers, but a pick six to end the first half and scoring too fast after being down 20-16 marked the primary reasons why Kurt doesn't have a second ring. Warner stuck around for one more year with the Cardinals, and became the second player to throw 100 passing TDs with two different teams. The Cardinals defense was actually improved upon in 2009 and Warner went 10-5 as their starter, only missing a game due to a concussion. He would play Aaron Rodgers and the Packers in the wild-card round, a game that the Cardinals barely won 51-45, where Warner had more touchdown passes than incompletions. The Packers got the ball first in overtime, but a strip sack lead to a fumble recovery touchdown, sealing the game. Kurt's final game would be a loss to the New Orleans Saints, in which he suffered a brutal injury in the first half of the game, and eventually needed to be replaced by Leinart in the second half. The game was looking like an another offensive shootout, until Warner was popped, and the Cardinals couldn't match blows with the Saints after that. Not many players have the peaks and valleys Warner did in his career, struggling with adversity not only trying to get into the league, but rising up once again after reaching the very pinnacle. Warner's defenses end up being about the middle of the pack. in 1999 and 2001 with the Rams, his defenses were rock solid, and they made it to two super bowls as a result. In the other years, the Rams were among the league's worst. His time with the Cardinals was pretty similar, he had great offensive weapons, but his defenses were sieves, and most of the games he played in were shootouts. As a result, he has one of the best records among QB's in games with poor defense, winning nearly 40% of those games. His struggles in the middle of his playing career are what keep him from being even higher than this, but make no mistake. When Kurt was on his game, the entire league was on notice. He was one of the best to ever play this game, and a worthy addition to NFL Lore.
  4. Yesterday
  5. BJORN

    Historical QB Rankings

    I could see an era based, Razor QB rankings-esque weighted metric as being a good idea for accounting for individual stats. Adds more work though, to already a big undertaking.
  6. Omerta

    Trump Regime thread.

    This election is going to be awesome. There is actually a candidate I can vote for this time. Tulsi is the only one I would even consider, the rest are dumbasses or just bad people. That cory Booker and his Spanish lol, with your fake bitch ass.
  7. Thanatos

    Trump Regime thread.

    Lmao. Trump went on twitter and told four congresswomen of color- three of whom are born in the US- to go back to where they came from and fix their own countries before complaining about the US. My manager in 2017 was fired for telling an Asian dude to go back where he came from.
  8. RazorStar

    Historical QB Rankings

    12. Jim Kelly (Buffalo Bills 1986-1996) 1st Place Bills QB Career Record 110-65-0 (62.86%) 17th out of 102 Record in Games with Good Defense 83-14-0 (85.57%) 15th out of 102 Record in Games with Bad Defense 27-51-0 (34.62%) 20th out of 102 Percentage of Games with Good Defense 97/175 (55.43%) 32nd out of 102 (+20) Wins above Average in a 16 Game Season (1.841) Jim Kelly is known as one of the three pillars of the 1983 QB Class, but it is often felt like the third wheel in comparison to Marino and Elway. He didn't come out of the league already crowned like Elway, and he wasn't putting up ridiculous passing numbers like Marino was. In fact, Jim Kelly didn't even start his career in the NFL. Because Kelly didn't want to play for a cold weather team, and considering the biggest name of the draft was adamant in not playing for the Colts, Kelly felt like he had a bit of leverage as well. He was thrilled Buffalo didn't take him with their first round pick... only to groan when they took him with their second first round pick that year. He was resigned to his fate, but when going to negotiate his contract, he was poached by the USFL. They offered him a choice, do you want to play in Buffalo... or Houston? Kelly made the decision to play for the Houston Gamblers, and so he made the USFL his bitch for a few seasons. However, the USFL would fold thanks to poor business decision from poor business people, and Kelly's right were still held by the Buffalo Bills. Showing he could dominate the USFL, the Bills were thrilled to get him, even if it took three seasons longer than they had originally planned. The early years were rough for Kelly, as he struggled to get acclimated to the team, and they fired their coach midway through the season. Marv Levy was brought on as the interim and he stuck around, though it took until 1988 for things to really click for the Bills. While Kelly threw more interceptions than touchdowns that season, the emergence of Bruce Smith and that defense meant they could cruise to a 12-4 record. As they would make a habit of, they beat the Oilers in the divisional round, but would be beat by the Bengals in the AFC Championship that year, after Kelly threw 3 picks in the loss. 1989 would see the Bills make the playoffs again, but only barely as Kelly suffered a seperated shoulder midway through the season, and after only taking three weeks off, was back on the field to finish it. The Bills struggled to a 9-7 record in december, and were promptly beaten by the Browns in the wild-card round, despite Kelly throwing for 4 TDs and 400 yards that game. But the reason everyone remembers Jim Kelly and the Bills is the run of 4 straight super bowl appearances, marked by 4 straight super bowl losses. 1990 would see Kelly break a 100 passer rating, and take the last two weeks of the regular season off as the Bills cruised to a 13-3 record and home field advantage in the AFC. The K-Gun offense put up 44 on the Dolphins, and then proceeded to put up 51 on the Los Angeles Raiders. They were looking unstoppable and in super bowl 25 came around, the best strategy was the never give Kelly the ball strategy. The Giants controlled the clock, kept Kelly contained, and despite only having a one point lead, they kept the Bills just far enough away for Scott Norwood to kick it wide right, and become the most miserable man in Buffalo for all time. The Bills didn't get a shot like that again, despite going to the dance three more times. Kelly was putting the league on notice, but he was throwing a lot more picks as the defense was slowly declining. In 91' they'd pound the Chiefs in the divisional round, and against the Broncos they would get into a defensive showdown, decided by a John Elway interception rather than an amazing play by either 1983 QB. But the Redskins would get out to an early 24-0 lead in the Super Bowl, and keep the pressure going long enough to secure a 37-24 victory. 1992 was a year where they didn't even get homefield, going 11-5, and losing their last game of the regular season to the Oilers thanks to a Kelly injury partway through the game. Frank Reich led the greatest comeback in history to beat the Oilers 41-38, after being down 35-3 at one point. Reich would keep them steady against the Steelers, doing enough not to blow a great defensive performance. Jim Kelly came back for the AFC Championship against the Dolphins, and while he was still shaking off the rust, Thurman Thomas did a lot of work in a 29-10 victory. However Kelly didn't last long in the super bowl, getting pulled midway through the second quarter because his knee was aggravated in the game. The Cowboys put up 52 on the Bills, and that was that. Kelly appeared to be weakening in 1993, as he threw 18 TDs and 18 INT's, but the defense was strong, the schedule was weak, and the Bills went 12-4, gaining home field advantage once again. Kelly lead a game winning drive against the Raiders in the divisional round, winning 29-23. There was no need for heroics in the AFC Championship, as the Bills smothered Joe Montana and Marcus Allen on the way to a 30-13 victory. Jim Kelly played the entire rematch against the Cowboys, and even came out to a 13-6 lead at halftime. Then the Dallas defense buckled down, forced a fumble return touchdown, held Buffalo scoreless in the second half, and ending up winning 30-13. The Bills would end up losing their last three games of 94, and fail to make the playoffs entirely at 7-9. They came back in 95 and went 10-6, and even beat the Dolphins in the wild card round 37-22, but against the Pittsburgh Steelers and their defense, Kelly threw three picks in a 40-21 loss. 1996 would be Kelly's last season as he struggled with injuries, was sacked the most times he had ever been in his career, and only threw 14 TDs to 19 INT's. The Bills would lose in the wild card round to the surprising Jaguars, and that would be the first time they ended the career of a QB drafted in the 1983 draft class. They did the same to Marino a few years later, but at least the Bills were competitive in this loss, only falling 30-27. Kelly's career wasn't the longest, but he had 11 strong years in the league, with 8 playoff appearances, and 4 AFC Championship victories to his credit. He could never get his teams over the NFC hump though, and that is something that will always stick with him despite the high level of success he had in the league. When it came to surrounding casts, Kelly had a great group to work with, a pair of hall of fame wide receivers for the majority of his run, a hall of fame running back, one of the greatest defensive ends to ever step onto the field, and a bunch of really talented role players, who all stuck together under the same head coach for 10.5 of those seasons. Once Kelly found his place in the league, he didn't give it up until his body gave up. Kelly ends up in the top 20 for both of his splits, and a defense just barely in the top third of the entire study, which shows that he had no issue performing to his best in any circumstance.
  9. Last week
  10. DJT20

    Texans fire their GM

    Easterby was at the Pats ring ceremony in June and tried to get cozy with Caserio about going to Houston. Weasel cocksucker lol. Texans fired Gaine the day after the ceremony. Pats slapped em with a tampering charge, of course.
  11. Zack_of_Steel

    Anyone want to donate a kidney to Haynesworth?

    Fuck that fat cunt, he deserves this. Nobody knows or remembers because for some reason it never gained much traction, but he ran a dude off the road and disabled him right after signing the biggest contract in NFL history. The dude was bedridden and left to fight it in court for over 2 years before Haynesworth finally settled. He literally crippled a 25 year old kid that was a fan of the team he played for by running him off the road going over 100mph in his Ferrari and then gave him the finger when he could have easily paid for his medical bills. He even admitted to the officers at the scene that the accident was his fault. That was just his crowning achievement. He was also in court for punching a dude in a road rage incident and groping a waitress.
  12. FartWaffles

    Anyone want to donate a kidney to Haynesworth?

    Matt Schaub would be comedic genius. Real talk though, feel bad for the dude and I hope he finds a donor for him.
  13. Zack_of_Steel

    '18-'19 NBA Season Thread

    Westbrook is a WAY better fit for D'Antoni's system than CP3 was. They'll get back to run 'n gun. Also, it looks like they're trying to trade CP3 before he ever puts on a jersey, so that's a relief. I figured for sure they were trying to have him be the tank commander and save ticket sales considering OKC LOVES them some CP3 since they played there during the Katrina shiz. Guess that's a fine backup plan. Apparently MIA is in the mix for him.
  14. RazorStar

    Historical QB Rankings

    I think legitimately the best idea I have is just to add years where players were meant to be backups as some kind of negative score (either -0.5 per season as a backup's rate, or calculate a number that is less of an approximation than that), and then add that negative score to their careers. Like Jim McMahon had 5 seasons where he was simply a backup who played either zero or one games. If we say he played about 10 games a season normally (since he never did finish a full season in the league), that would lower his careers wins over average to 8.26, and then with an extra 50 games added to his career (now 151 or about 8.5 16 game seasons), his WAA goes down to 0.875, which would put him in between Eli Manning and Cam Newton currently. It's not perfect, but it was something I was thinking about.
  15. seanbrock

    Historical QB Rankings

    Maybe if we weighed this somehow with like YPA/turn over ratio/completion % and kind of break it down like you did average defensive performance per decade. I'm not sure if you used anything like that to balance out the scores but idk I feel it might be perfect if it's balanced with the right individual counting stats. I think that would probably be the best way to keep guys like Flacco and MacMahon from sneaking on too high.
  16. RazorStar

    Historical QB Rankings

    Ok fine, I'll do a serious write up on Brett Favre... Drafted in 1991 by Jerry Glanville's Run and Shoot Falcons, Favre and Glanville got along like Clint Eastwood and Teenagers, an obvious disconnect between the front office and the head coach. Favre dropped back all of 5 times for the Falcons, was sacked once, threw two picks, and two incompletions. Packers GM Ron Wolf really coveted Favre coming out of the draft, but was snaked by the Falcons the year prior, so he was willing to trade a first rounder to secure Favre in Green Bay. And as they say, the rest is history. Favre replaced the injured Don Majkowski three games into the 1992 season, and his legacy was born as he lead a comeback after being down 17-3 against the Bengals to secure a 24-23 victory. Favre never gave up a start to any of his backups in his long time there, a list that include Matt Hasselbeck, Mark Brunell, Kurt Warner, Aaron Rodgers, and most importantly of all, Craig Nall. 😛 Favre and the Packers spent the next couple of seasons compiling talent, while working around a QB who always wanted to make the big play happen, even if it would lead to a costly turnover otherwise. They would go 9-7 and for three straight seasons, and in 1993 and 1994 they would break into the playoffs. Both trips were quite similar, they would beat the Lions in the wild-card round, and then get pounded by the Dallas Cowboys in the divisional round as they just couldn't match the talent those Cowboys teams had. 1995 would mark a turning point for the Packers, as Brett Favre won his first of three consecutive MVP's, on a streak of three straight years with 3800+ yards and 35+ TD passes. The Packers would go 11-5 in 1995, their best record since the Lombardi era, and win a date with Favre's old team the Falcons in the wild-card round. Favre threw 3 TD's and no picks in a 37-20 victory over them. Their next date was with the defending super bowl champion 49ers, and the Packers mauled them, came out to a 21-0 lead early, and sat on it on the way to a 27-17 victory. However, round 3 against the Cowboys would end the same as rounds 1 and 2, with Favre coming up short against the sheer talent on the Dallas team, losing 38-27 after being shut out in the 4th quarter. But 1996 was good, they didn't need to play the Cowboys in the playoffs, and they secured home field advantage in the playoffs with a 13-3 record. The 49ers were no challenge, and the surprising Panthers choked miserably in the NFC Championship game. The Super Bowl put them up against Drew Bledsoe's Patriots, and Favre threw for 2 touchdowns, ran for 1 and didn't win the MVP for the game, instead it went to kick returner Desmond Howard, who scored the last TD of the game in a 35-21 result. 1997 would mark another 13-3 season, and another season where neither the Bucs in the divisional round, nor the 49ers in the conference championship could hope to stop the Packers roll. But all dreams must die, and the Packers faced an opponent they could not beat, the surprising wild card Denver Broncos with an aging John Elway, and Terrell Davis who despite having a migraine took the ball 30 times for 157 yards and 3 TD's. The game was close throughout, but the Packers simply could not make any headway at the end of the game in a 31-24 loss. Favre would never go to the super bowl again, despite his illustrious career, and he would never win the MVP again, though he had plenty of seasons where he was in the discussion for it. The Packers finally lost to the 49ers in the playoffs in 1998, in a game where Favre would throw two picks, and the game would be sealed by an incredible Terrell Owens catch from Steve Young with 8 seconds left on the clock. Favre would throw more interceptions than touchdowns in 1999 as the new head coach Ray Rhodes didn't work out too hot for them. 2000 would see the Pack go 9-7 and miss the playoffs despite going on a 4 game winning streak to end the season. It took until 2001 for the Packers to come back to form, as they retooled the team around Favre with young defensive players, and built chemistry with his new young weapons like Ahman Green, Bubba Franks, and Donald Driver. The Pack would go 12-4, Favre would break the 30 TD mark, and throw less than 20 interceptions for once. They even beat the crap out of the 49ers in the wild-card round, just like old times. Well, then the divisional round happened and the St. Louis Rams and the greatest show on turf put up 45 on the Packers, no doubt bolstered by Favre's 6 interceptions and two lost fumbles by skill position players. The Packers would again go 12-4 in 2002, and this time Favre would only throw 2 interceptions, but lose 2 fumbles as well on the way to a 27-7 loss to Michael Vick's Falcons in the wild card round. The Packers would make the playoffs in 2003 as well with Favre eclipsing 20 picks again and in a wild card game against the Seahawks, he was fortunate that Matt Hasslebeck was the one to throw the first interception in overtime and not him. Of course he would respond by throwing an interception to Brian Dawkins in overtime in the divisional round, putting the Eagles in great position to kick a game winning field goal. 2004 would mark a repeat of Favre throwing too many interceptions in the playoffs, as he gave 4 to the Vikings on the way to a 31-17 loss in the wild card round. This would mark the start of the "will he, won't he retire talk" and prompt the Packers executives to make a decision. It was time to draft Favre's replacement, and they had the luxury of watching as Aaron Rodgers fell to their laps at the 24th overall pick. 2005 in turn, would be Favre worst season of his career. To this point he had never experienced a losing season, but there's a first time for everything as the Packers went 4-12. Favre threw 607 times, only made 20 TD passes, along with 29 interceptions, the highest mark in his career. If not for all the good will he had bought Packers fans, he would have been benched for Rodgers much earlier than he was. Favre waffled with retirement again, but decided to stay on. The struggles continued in 06' but Favre threw 10 less interceptions that season, and the Packers went on a roll in December, winning their last 4 to finish a respectable 8-8. There were calls to replace Favre with Rodgers, but he was still the starter come 2007, and for a brief wonderful period of time for Packers fans, they had felt like their faith in the old codger had been justly rewarded. Favre may have had his best season as a Packer with new head coach Mike McCarthy and he finally meshing. He would throw for 4155 yards, 28 TD's, only 15 INT's, and was second in MVP voting because some asshole team decided to go undefeated that year. He took the Packers to a 13-3 record, and got them home field advantage in the NFC. They would put up 42 points on the outmatched Seattle Seahawks in the divisional round, and look deadly against the New York Giants in the conference championship. But all things must fail, and Brett Favre reminded the world exactly who he was that day in the NFC Championship. The Packers offense stumbled in the 4th quarter against the Giants, and the game was tied at 20 going into overtime, despite multiple opportunities for Lawrence Tynes to kick a game winning field goal. Favre would be certain to give them one more, throwing a pick to RW McQuarters in OT, and watching as Lawrence Tynes finally hit a field goal from 47 yards out. And this would mark the end of his time with the Packers, as they got sick of his waffling with retirement, his desire to be traded to Minnesota was not accepted nor was his release from his contract, and instead he was thrown to the Jets. He would look really good for the Jets, at least for the first 11 games of the season or so, as the Jets would climb to an 8-3 record, including a game where they beat the Patriots in overtime in Gillette Stadium. However, Favre had torn the labrum in his shoulder and decided to keep playing despite the injury and the Jets suffered as a result, losing 4 of their last 5 as Favre threw only 2 TD's to 9 interceptions, as they averaged 16 points of offense down the stretch. The Jets went 9-7 and missed the postseason entirely. The Jets were also fined for not reporting that they had knowledge of Favre's injury. Favre retired... he was cut... and then he suddenly came back just in time to sign with the Minnesota Vikings, because if I have any indication of Favre's personality, dude is a petty and vindictive bitch, and he wanted to stick it to the Packers for taking him out on their terms and not his. Favre had by far his most efficient season of his career, and he had an incredible running mate in the backfield with Adrian Peterson to hand off to. Favre threw less than 10 interceptions for the first time in his career since his rookie season, when he only threw four passes. He also put up 33 TD passes, 4200 yards, and a passer rating over 100 for the first time in his career. The Vikings went 12-4 as a result, and had the second seed in the NFC. And of course, Favre became the first QB in NFL history to beat all 32 current teams. Favre would finally beat the Cowboys in the playoffs in a cathartic 34-3 throttling in the divisional round. But in the conference championship, the Saints defense had all the answers, and beat Favre black and blue as he would eventually throw a game sealing interception, as is par for the course. Favre's 2010 would be marked with injuries, as his starting streak came to an end at 321 games, he would throw 19 interceptions to just 11 TD's in his final season and he would finally retire for real. As expected of a player this high on the list, Favre's splits are incredible. Though the end of his career is marked by many postseason failures, he was an incredible regular season quarterback, and despite how many interceptions he threw he would never get discouraged. Sometimes that was a great thing, nothing could dent his confidence. Sometimes he would just continue to throw interceptions, and no coach, player, or act of god could stop that man from slinging it. Many of his records that he held at his retirement have since been broken by Drew Brees, Tom Brady and Peyton Manning, but when he retired, basically every thing on the record book belonged to him. His consecutive starts including postseason has been threatened a few times by players, but for now it looks like a streak that will hold for a long time. Philip Rivers is the closest player to breaking it currently, and he's 102 starts behind.
  17. DalaiLama4Ever

    Historical QB Rankings

    Solid write-up for the GOAT Kappa. Also, most underrated on Razor's list goes to....
  18. RazorStar

    Historical QB Rankings

    13. Jeff (Atlanta Falcons 1991, Green Bay Packers 1992-2007, New York Jets 2008, Minnesota Vikings 2009-2010) 2nd Place Packers and 1st Place Vikings QB Career Record 197-120-0 (62.15%) 18th out of 102 Record in Games with Good Defense 144-29-0 (83.24%) 26th out of 102 Record in Games with Bad Defense 53-91-0 (36.81%) 16th out of 102 Percentage of Games with Good Defense 173/317 (54.57%) 37th out of 102 (+24) Wins above Average in a 16 Game Season (1.795) There are only three things Jeff liked more than sending unsolicited dick pics to strangers. Throwing costly interceptions in postseason games, pretending to retire, and Vicodin.
  19. blotsfan

    '18-'19 NBA Season Thread

    I suppose I could be wrong, but I think this is an incredibly stupid trade for Houston.
  20. RazorStar

    '18-'19 NBA Season Thread

    Well I'm just glad we can take the Rockets out of serious contender talk.
  21. DalaiLama4Ever

    Historical QB Rankings

    Brees can't even hold Aaron Brooks' jockstrap.
  22. Zack_of_Steel

    '18-'19 NBA Season Thread

    This is probably the worst outcome I could imagine. Chris Paul is without a doubt one of the biggest twats in the NBA. So ridiculously unlikable from the flopping to the whining to the dirty wrist-grab on D he's so famous for to the Stans trying to put him above Stockton. FUCK. Furthermore, I absolutely loathe the Rockets and their abortion of a fanbase (if LAL fans know they're a legion of cunts, you guys can accept it also). I was hyped to watch Russ and Jimmy in MIA, but this? For Russ, I'm happy that he's on a contender and that he's going to get to play with one of his good friends again. I just want no part of Chris Paul or the Rockets, but now I gotta root for them both? -_-
  23. I feel like it needs to come from Andre Gurode, in some sort of karmic rebalancing. Or something.
  24. Vin

    Historical QB Rankings

    There's a higher ranked Saints QB left.
  25. RazorStar

    Historical QB Rankings

    14. Drew Brees (San Diego Chargers 2001-2005, New Orleans Saints 2006-Current) 1st Place Chargers and 2nd Place Saints QB Career Record 149-111-0 (57.31%) 37th out of 102 Record in Games with Good Defense 101-15-0 (87.07%) 11th out of 102 Record in Games with Bad Defense 48-96-0 (33.33%) 24th (T) out of 102 Percentage of Games with Good Defense 116/260 (44.62%) 79th out of 102 (+65) Wins above Average in a 16 Game Season (1.777) (1.892 after the 2018 Season) And now we come to the reason I ended up making this list in the first. How much better would Drew Brees have been if he had Tom Brady's defenses? Well while he isn't as high as Tom Brady, he's in the same category as some of the greatest players to ever play this game, and with his 2018 numbers, he would jump all the way up to 11th place unofficially. With nearly 2 wins above the average starter he probably would have won every division title that the Patriots won this century, with a probable exception to the first two in 2001 and 2003, because it did take a while for Brees to find his place in the NFL. Brees was drafted in the second round by the San Diego Chargers, as an attempt to move on from the horrid Ryan Leaf era that had plagued the franchise. He sat and learned behind Doug Flutie his rookie year, and got some idea on how to operate as a smaller QB in a league that was not forgiving to players of their stature. He was named the starter in 2002, and played marginally well, but lost the last four games of the season to finish 8-8. He continued to struggle mightily in 2003, going 1-7 before getting benched for Flutie, only to come back and lose the last three games of the season as well. The Chargers made a move to draft his replacement, as they had the first overall pick in the stacked 2004 QB class. And for a time it seemed like the writing was on the wall for Brees. But with the pressure mounting, and Rivers chomping at the bit behind him, Brees started to go off, and become the guy we all know him to be, a passing dynamo who can always find the open guy. He took the Chargers to a 12-4 record, sitting out the last game of the season to rest for the playoffs, while the Chargers put in Flutie instead of the rookie Rivers, since Marty was not fussed about Rivers being brought in to replace his guy. In any case, Brees lost in his first playoff game, one where he came back from down 17-7 against the Jets to bring it into overtime, and even got his kicker in position to make a 40 yard game winner, but Kaeding shanked it, and the Jets eventually won at the end of the first overtime. Brees was named the starter for the 2005 season, and he took a greater command of the offense. However with a loss to the Chiefs in week 16, the Chargers weren't officially eliminated from the playoffs and weren't playing for anything in week 17. Rather than put out Philip Rivers for a meaningless game, Schottenheimer was adamant on playing Drew Brees. And that decision cost them, as Gerard Warren came down on top of Brees and broke his shoulder on a sack fumble. With Brees injured and heading into the end of his contract, and with a young QB chomping at the bit behind him, Brees time in San Diego came to an end. The injury was severe enough that teams were scared of taking a chance on him. The Dolphins decided that they would rather take a chance on Daunte Culpepper with his shredded ACL than try anything with Brees. The Chargers offered him a backup level contract loaded with incentives. However, someone did give him a chance, even if he didn't get his first option in Tony Romo. Sean Payton decided the Saints needed a quarterback, and Aaron Brooks wasn't doing the job, so he took a chance on Drew Brees and told him he would be the starter if he was healthy for training, and paired him with the most electric running back in college history in Reggie Bush. The rest is history. Brees eclipsed 4000 yards for the first time in his career, and would keep that streak going for 12 seasons. The Saints went 10-6 and won the NFC South. They beat the Jeff Garcia Eagles 27-24 in the divisional round, before getting walloped by the Chicago Bears 39-14 in the conference championship. Brees would continue to be the keystone for the team, but the team would struggle with abysmal defenses in 2007 and 2008, going 7-9 and 8-8 respectively. 2009 would mark a change in operations, as while the defense was still not amazing, they did a very good job at forcing turnovers with the cornerback tandem of Jabari Greer and Tracy Porter, and the ball hawking safety Darren Sharper. The Saints would go 13-3, and lock up home field advantage in the NFC by week 16, Brees would eclipse the 70% completion percentage mark, and the Saints would roll. The put up 45 points on the defending NFC Champion Cardinals, and then got into a shootout with Brett Favre and the Minnesota Vikings, a game far more famous for the talks of putting a bounty out on Brett Favre than anything that actually happened, but as you would expect, the game was sealed by a Brett Favre interception in the 4th quarter that would have put them in position to kick a game winning field goal. Brees led the team down the field in the first OT possession, and they kicked a 40 yard field goal before the Vikings could touch the ball. They would go on to super bowl 44 against the Indianapolis Colts, and thanks to the brilliant onside kick to start the second half, the Saints took the momentum, and were able to take a 24-17 lead while giving Peyton Manning the ball with 5:30 left. The Colts looked like they might drive it down the field, but Manning threw an untimely pick to Tracy Porter, who took it back all the way for a touchdown, sealing the game for the Saints and giving Brees his first and only super bowl ring. Because karma came back to bite the Saints hard, and it's still biting to this day. 2010 would see Brees throw 22 interceptions as his run game dissolved into nothing, but the Saints scoring defense improved immensely, and the team went 11-5 as a result. However they were the road team against the 7-9 Seahawks, and fell victim to the Beastquake in a 41-36 loss. Brees would put the league on notice in 2011, completing 71% of his passes, throwing for 5476 yards, 46 TD's and only 14 INT's on the way to a 13-3 record. That wasn't enough for a first round bye in a stacked NFC, so they beat up the Lions in the wild-card round 45-28. And when they needed their defense to make a stop up 32-29 against the 49ers with only 1:37 left in the game... they failed. Alex Smith drove the 49ers down the field and scored the game winning touchdown ending the Saints run 36-32. 2012 would see bounty gate come to light as Sean Payton was suspended for an entire season, and with a new interim head coach, and new defensive coordinator, the Saints stunk. Brees was still amazing, but the defense was bottom 5 in scoring, and gave up 23 or more points in all but three games that season on the way to a 7-9 record. Spags would get fired, Payton would come back as HC, and Rob Ryan was brought in to be the new DC. And for 2013, it all seemed to work. The Saints went from bottom 5 to top 5 in scoring defense, Brees would have his third straight 5000 yard season, and the Saints would win the NFC South at 11-5. They faced a tough showdown against the Nick Foles Eagles in the wild card round, scraping by with a 26-24 win on a last second field goal. However they were crushed by the Legion of Boom in the divisional round, losing 23-15. The Saints would spend the next three years going 7-9, as despite Brees best efforts, his defenses were some of the worst in the league with Rob Ryan revealing his true form, and Dennis Allen revealing his soon after. 2017 would finally see the Saints defense rebound as they spent most of their draft capital developing it. With a top ten scoring defense, Brees showed the league that he was still the same beast that could not be contained, and went 11-5, securing the NFC South on tiebreakers. They would challenge Cam Newton and the Panthers in another offensive showdown, one where the defense actually prevented a last minute comeback by the Panthers. The Saints would proceed to lose in heartbreaking fashion in the divisional round though, after Brees led a game winning field goal drive with only 1:25 left on the clock, and only giving the Vikings 25 seconds to operate a drive to get them into field goal range, Stefon Diggs gets open, evades the corner going for the big hit instead of the wrap up tackle, and is unmolested on the way to the end zone. Despite Brees' best efforts he is subject to heartbreak. The data point ends there, but 2018 was more of the same, despite Brees' effort, a controversial no call forced overtime against the Rams in the conference championship, letting the Rams eventually win that game. Drew Brees is probably one of the most clutch performers we've ever seen in the playoffs, however his defenses are likely the most anti-clutch we've ever seen. There have been multiple opportunities in Brees' career where he has done enough to win key games, only to see his defense squander it away. It has to be difficult to watch. When it comes to playoff losses you can reasonably put on his shoulders, he has two, a loss to the 2006 Bears and their defense and a loss to the Legion of Boom in 2013. Otherwise he's had to deal with his kicker missing a field goal in overtime after leading a ten point comeback, The Beastquake run by Marshawn Lynch, Alex Smith leading a game winning drive with a minute left in a shootout, The Minnesota Miracle, and I don't think we have a name for what happened in 2018 other than BS. Drew Brees doesn't end up being the highest overachiever on this list compared to his defenses, but he's pretty damn close. He's the Sonny Jurgensen of our time, but at the very least he's getting the respect he deserves.
  26. Zack_of_Steel

    Historical QB Rankings

    I feel like you should have started over when you got to Flacco. Throw the project in the trash when McMahon ends up above Ben. Something is wrong here.
  27. SteVo

    Historical QB Rankings

    A run on modern QBs before Jimmy Mac, and I'm honestly not surprised to see any of them up here.
  28. https://www.rotoworld.com/football/nfl/player/4872/albert-haynesworth
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