Mike McGlynn: Lions and Suh are 'ignorant'

[ATL_Predator+ 1,196]

To me, I am a fan of Donkey Kong...only when his head is on straight and not playing like a little bitch. Which isn't often, but he plays the game with a Ray Lewis intensity at points. He's a physical defensive tackle, who isn't afraid to send opponents a message...whether good or bad.

 

However, there's something called sportsmanship. You don't see Geno Atkins who is head and shoulders the best 43 DT in this league doing shit like Suh does. Also, it should be a concern that you hear more about Suh's actions on the field...rather than the plays that he makes. It's also something different each week...

 

To defend Suh, is to support a monster..which is what he is. Filthy. And as much as I appreciate him at points, I will not defend this man for the over the top actions on the field. Maybe if he was making more plays during the game I wouldn't say as much...but that's not happening either.

[DonovanMcnabb for H.O.F 2,241]

So, you're saying the scheme has turned us from the worst run D to the best run D? Like I said, I think it definitely has played a part, but the scheme wouldn't be as effective as it is if it weren't for McCoy making the plays he is. If this scheme is so good at stopping the run and it doesn't matter what players are in it, why don't more teams do it?

 

IDK. That's like me asking the question why don't more teams execute the 3-4 when in a normal year, like 3 of the top 4 teams in the playoffs run a variation of the 3-4 defense. Multiple reasons.

 

But I can almost guarantee you have Miller playing a slanted NT position has more of an impact on all the negative plays. A NT slanted at 45 degrees facing head up on the center and attacks him forces the guard to double down automatically. That's two guys taken out by one player. And it makes stoping the run for the rest of the players a whole lot easier.

 

Regardless, on any given team, on any given play, the NT makes more impact on a run game's success then a DT. They are the closest to the center and automatically take up priority unless if the DT requires more blockers to defend.

 

And this is exactly what I am saying about McCoy, yet you throw out stats saying why Suh is the better player. Suh may have more sacks, pressures and all that stuff, but, like you said, he is let loose to go after the QB every play. McCoy is stuck doing stunts all the time which delays him getting up the field to make the actual plays that puts him in the box score. If Suh is asked to go after the QB almost every play, he should have better stats than McCoy because McCoy isn't. It's just common sense. Doesn't make him the better player. And for a guy who is going after the QB every play, Suh's numbers aren't anything spectacular and the Lions still seem to be struggling with getting pressure on the QB.

 

Comparing how much the scheme affects Suh against the run to how much your scheme affects McCoy as a pass rusher is absolutely stupid. Not even remotely close.

 

If a DT's strength is his first step and explosiveness, he should thrive in a system that includes stunts. As long as he's not stunting from the left guard's outside shoulder to the LT outside shoulder, a guy who's explosion is his biggest asset should actually do pretty well. Stunts were invented for that very purpose, fir the 290 DTs who are quick and explosive along with confusing the offensive line. Kevin Williams in Minnesota did for a long time, and DeMcarcus Ware stunting doesn't seem to hinder his pass rush.

 

But being asked to run into the backfield with an almost reckless disregard of whether its a run or a pass causes much more problems for any defensive linemen try to play the run. It takes you completely out of position to make a play, it keeps you off balance, and it opens the door to simply be pushed aside sideways.

 

It's not even close to the same thing.

 

And at this point, your argument is that a defensive scheme has turned around a defense from being the worst against the run to best against the run in the league. That sounds a lot more silly to me than saying McCoy is the reason for it, especially as we actually had a decent run D last year before McCoy went down.

 

McCoy plays DT, a run stopping position. Our run D just happens to play a shit ton better when he is out there and there is plenty of video evidence out there showing him wrecking o-lines and making plays for other people on our D. So, I believe using that team stat is very valid.

 

How could you possibly still say that Suh is better against the run? Everything points to McCoy being the better run defender. You've even said Suh isn't asked to stop the run. Do you think me, PFF and multiple other people are just making this shit up that McCoy is having such a big impact on the D? He's obviously not the sole reason we've made the turn around, but he's been the most important part.

 

I really don't see what makes it so silly?

 

New coach, decides to instil toughness and attitude to stop the run, preaches to his team discipline, team succeeds against the run.

 

McCoy plays a one gap DT 3 tech position. The chances that a gap 3 tech defensive linemen have the amount of impact as you claim he has and not more plays against the run himself is extremely unlikely. Like, it doesn't happen. Even 2 gap 3-4 NT who are asked to eat up blockers at least have a ton of stops, but McCoy doesn't.

 

At this point, the only people who I see saying that McCoy makes as much of an impact against the run as you claim he does is you. Maybe some other Bucs fans may agree, but PFF is not on your side on this one.

 

JJ Watt has a run grade of 35, Muhamed Wilkerson - 27, That's making a huge impact against the run. McCoy with a 9.9 run grade is not dominant, nor is it that big of an impact. And none of those two guys have a #1 ranked run defense.

 

It's getting to the point now where you are way overhyping how much impact McCoy has. And using a team stat to back it up is not valid.

 

I can tell you that Suh is better against the run because 1. He's made more plays against the run, 2. On 3rd and short, and 4th and short, the plays where his help is actually needed on running plays, either he makes the play himself (look at his stuffs, stops, TFL) or the guy right next to him makes the play. He has shown the ability multiple times now.

 

They honestly aren't in the same level this year.

 

And its nothing short of laughable, at least at this point to call McCoy the better player. Especially if your first and really only valid argument is, "look!!! He turned our run defense from last to first!! Even though he hardly makes any plays himself!!".

[AllYouNeedIsLovie 377]

IDK. That's like me asking the question why don't more teams execute the 3-4 when in a normal year, like 3 of the top 4 teams in the playoffs run a variation of the 3-4 defense. Multiple reasons.

 

But I can almost guarantee you have Miller playing a slanted NT position has more of an impact on all the negative plays. A NT slanted at 45 degrees facing head up on the center and attacks him forces the guard to double down automatically. That's two guys taken out by one player. And it makes stoping the run for the rest of the players a whole lot easier.

 

Regardless, on any given team, on any given play, the NT makes more impact on a run game's success then a DT. They are the closest to the center and automatically take up priority unless if the DT requires more blockers to defend.

 

Comparing how much the scheme affects Suh against the run to how much your scheme affects McCoy as a pass rusher is absolutely stupid. Not even remotely close.

 

If a DT's strength is his first step and explosiveness, he should thrive in a system that includes stunts. As long as he's not stunting from the left guard's outside shoulder to the LT outside shoulder, a guy who's explosion is his biggest asset should actually do pretty well. Stunts were invented for that very purpose, fir the 290 DTs who are quick and explosive along with confusing the offensive line. Kevin Williams in Minnesota did for a long time, and DeMcarcus Ware stunting doesn't seem to hinder his pass rush.

 

But being asked to run into the backfield with an almost reckless disregard of whether its a run or a pass causes much more problems for any defensive linemen try to play the run. It takes you completely out of position to make a play, it keeps you off balance, and it opens the door to simply be pushed aside sideways.

 

It's not even close to the same thing.

 

LOL, you really don't seem to get it.

 

Read this first post of this thread :

 

http://www.pewterreport.com/Boards/index.php/topic,1301260.0.html

 

I really don't see what makes it so silly?

 

New coach, decides to instil toughness and attitude to stop the run, preaches to his team discipline, team succeeds against the run.

 

McCoy plays a one gap DT 3 tech position. The chances that a gap 3 tech defensive linemen have the amount of impact as you claim he has and not more plays against the run himself is extremely unlikely. Like, it doesn't happen. Even 2 gap 3-4 NT who are asked to eat up blockers at least have a ton of stops, but McCoy doesn't.

 

At this point, the only people who I see saying that McCoy makes as much of an impact against the run as you claim he does is you. Maybe some other Bucs fans may agree, but PFF is not on your side on this one.

 

JJ Watt has a run grade of 35, Muhamed Wilkerson - 27, That's making a huge impact against the run. McCoy with a 9.9 run grade is not dominant, nor is it that big of an impact. And none of those two guys have a #1 ranked run defense.

 

It's getting to the point now where you are way overhyping how much impact McCoy has. And using a team stat to back it up is not valid.

 

I can tell you that Suh is better against the run because 1. He's made more plays against the run, 2. On 3rd and short, and 4th and short, the plays where his help is actually needed on running plays, either he makes the play himself (look at his stuffs, stops, TFL) or the guy right next to him makes the play. He has shown the ability multiple times now.

 

They honestly aren't in the same level this year.

 

And its nothing short of laughable, at least at this point to call McCoy the better player. Especially if your first and really only valid argument is, "look!!! He turned our run defense from last to first!! Even though he hardly makes any plays himself!!".

 

The link I posted should answer most of these questions, but for the bolded, PFT seems to disagree with you here.

 

PFF's Midseason All Pro Team:

Defensive Tackle: Geno Atkins, CIN (+23.3) and Gerald McCoy, TB (+15.9)There isn’t a tackle better at getting up field than Atkins, who already has 27 quarterback disruptions on the year to go with 15 further defensive stops. He’s joined by the underrated McCoy whose return to health has coincided with a massive improvement in the Buccaneers’ defense.

 

 

 

 

[DonovanMcnabb for H.O.F 2,241]

LOL, you really don't seem to get it.

 

Read this first post of this thread :

 

http://www.pewterreport.com/Boards/index.php/topic,1301260.0.html

 

 

 

The link I posted should answer most of these questions, but for the bolded, PFT seems to disagree with you here.

 

The link you posted proves nothing.

 

The guy goes on a shpeal about why he isn't successfully bringing more pressure and sacks. He's doing pretty much what you are doing. Making excuses. Stunts are designed to help defensive tackles who are explosive, it it ain't helping him... That's more indicative of him not being able to get the job done.

 

Ever thought that maybe, the reason why the stunts are ran in the first place is because that line can't get consistent pressure from anywhere in the front 4 the old fashioned way? Or, the stunts are executed so that McCoy doesn't get doubled? If running up the field on every play as your "pass rush move" doesn't work for DEs, what makes you think it'll work for DTs?

 

How much sense would it really make for a DC, or even a head coach to allow his coaches to deliberately slow down their own pass rush when pass rush is what they need? Or are we assuming now that neither the head coach, or the DC knows how to properly handle their players? Here's a thought, maybe McCoy really isn't as good of a pass rusher as you picture him being in your head?

 

PFF's Midseason All Pro Team:

 

 

For the billionth time. Nobody is denying that McCoy is good against the run. But the PFF post proves nothing either.

 

You claim that he coming back is the reason why the run defense is the way it is this year. You are claiming that a DT who essentially runs up the field, is single handledly causing enough disruption to turn a defense from worst to first. Yet that defensive player doesn't himself make plays against the run?

 

You are overhyping him. And you are underrating everyone around him. If he was making that much impact his run defense grade would be so much higher then it is currently. His run grade is in the positive, Suh's run grade is in the negative, yet Suh only has a total points of 2 less then McCoy. Like I keep saying, McCoy has not been all that impressive this year.

 

And not only that but PFF like I keep saying is not your best source for an argument. Unless if you truly believe that Casey Hayward, a nickle corner who's only been targeted 59 times and has hardly that many snaps when you consider his peers, and Antoine Winfield have performed better then every other corner in the NFL this season.

[DonovanMcnabb for H.O.F 2,241]

And as a regard to the difference between when McCoy is on the field and when he isn't, I didn't watch the games so I wouldn't know but...

 

It says on ESPN he played against the Vikings and the 49ers last year... Where was that dominant, disruptive run defense then?

Edited December 8, 2012 by DonovanMcnabb for H.O.F

[Gronk'd 15]

Suh needs a coach who is going to sit him and down and tell him to keep playing with his intensity, but stop with the selfish antics that are going to hurt his team if he continues to do them.

[AllYouNeedIsLovie 377]

The link you posted proves nothing.

 

The guy goes on a shpeal about why he isn't successfully bringing more pressure and sacks. He's doing pretty much what you are doing. Making excuses. Stunts are designed to help defensive tackles who are explosive, it it ain't helping him... That's more indicative of him not being able to get the job done.

 

Ever thought that maybe, the reason why the stunts are ran in the first place is because that line can't get consistent pressure from anywhere in the front 4 the old fashioned way? Or, the stunts are executed so that McCoy doesn't get doubled? If running up the field on every play as your "pass rush move" doesn't work for DEs, what makes you think it'll work for DTs?

 

How much sense would it really make for a DC, or even a head coach to allow his coaches to deliberately slow down their own pass rush when pass rush is what they need? Or are we assuming now that neither the head coach, or the DC knows how to properly handle their players? Here's a thought, maybe McCoy really isn't as good of a pass rusher as you picture him being in your head?

 

For the billionth time. Nobody is denying that McCoy is good against the run. But the PFF post proves nothing either.

 

You claim that he coming back is the reason why the run defense is the way it is this year. You are claiming that a DT who essentially runs up the field, is single handledly causing enough disruption to turn a defense from worst to first. Yet that defensive player doesn't himself make plays against the run?

 

You are overhyping him. And you are underrating everyone around him. If he was making that much impact his run defense grade would be so much higher then it is currently. His run grade is in the positive, Suh's run grade is in the negative, yet Suh only has a total points of 2 less then McCoy. Like I keep saying, McCoy has not been all that impressive this year.

 

And not only that but PFF like I keep saying is not your best source for an argument. Unless if you truly believe that Casey Hayward, a nickle corner who's only been targeted 59 times and has hardly that many snaps when you consider his peers, and Antoine Winfield have performed better then every other corner in the NFL this season.

 

That link doesn't prove anything? Well, I think we should just disagree on this topic if you think that link shows nothing because it clearly shows McCoy is not being used to his strengths and the stunts delay his pass rush.

 

And you do realize the 49ers and Vikings have 2 of the best running games in the league, right? Even this year, AP and Alfred Morris had pretty good games against us.

[Omerta+ 1,206]

The idea that McCoy is better against the run is laughable, and the only reason it holds weight is because the Lions defense is based on penetration, not reading and reacting. Which makes Suh less consistent in that area.

 

And even in that aspect, he has made so many more plays behind the line of scrimmage compared to McCoy that it makes your "Suh hasn't looked more dominant" statement even more laughable.

 

I am not saying one way or the other because I dont give a shit and neither can touch Ngata. That said The bolded part is a contradiction isnt it ?

 

You say the lions D is based on penetration which is why McCoy only APPEARS to be better, but then you say he has made more plays behind the line so Suh is better than McCoy.

 

Well if the defense is based on penetration than should Suh not have more plays behind the line of scrimmage ? Of course Suh would because that is schematically what he is supposed to be doing.

Edited December 9, 2012 by Ngata_Chance

[DonovanMcnabb for H.O.F 2,241]

I am not saying one way or the other because I dont give a shit and neither can touch Ngata. That said The bolded part is a contradiction isnt it ?

 

You say the lions D is based on penetration which is why McCoy only APPEARS to be better, but then you say he has made more plays behind the line so Suh is better than McCoy.

 

Well if the defense is based on penetration than should Suh not have more plays behind the line of scrimmage ? Of course Suh would because that is schematically what he is supposed to be doing.

 

McCoy is a one gap DT, if he was the better player against the run he'd at least have more stops then Suh, especially if the argument is over who is the more disruptive player.

 

And that's only if we are comparing the two of them. If you are going to say "this DT who plays in a one gap scheme is the main/biggest reason for our run defense going from last to first", that DT better be in the top 10 in that category. Neither is the case for McCoy.

 

That link doesn't prove anything? Well, I think we should just disagree on this topic if you think that link shows nothing because it clearly shows McCoy is not being used to his strengths and the stunts delay his pass rush.

 

And you do realize the 49ers and Vikings have 2 of the best running games in the league, right? Even this year, AP and Alfred Morris had pretty good games against us.

 

Considering the fact that you claim him to be this great run stopper, does it matter how good they are? Especially for a team like SF who run between the tackles more then anywhere else.

Edited December 9, 2012 by DonovanMcnabb for H.O.F