Broncos released Willis McGahee

[KempBolt 498]

Ball's burst and foot speed are better than you're giving him credit for. He improved his combine numbers significantly at his pro day. There were reports about him having a sinus infection at the combine and he improved all his timed numbers at his pro day so I'm inclined to believe him. He's fairly similar to McCoy, McCoy's a little faster but Ball is quicker and has better vision. Ball also shows the ability to make people miss in close spaces and that's huge for a RB. But Ball doesn't need to be fast or have a good burst to succeed, his vision and patience are what will make him a good RB. He's shown the ability to play at any weight from 205 to 230 and play well at both weights.

 

Shanny and Kubiak had Alex Gibbs teaching the ZBS when they were both with Denver. Denver brought back Alex Gibbs this offseason so we can run more zone blocking concepts. Ball is a terrific fit in a zone scheme. The o-line is highly athletic and they don't suffer from being small like most teams that use the ZBS. I'd also argue that Denver's o-line is better than Washington's and Houston's even with Walton being out for the majority if not all of the season.

 

Hillman didn't try to bounce everything outside last year. He had 85 carries and only 23 went to the outside, most of those were stretches and tosses and if I'm not mistaken he averaged over 6 ypc going tot he outside. Hillman was actually pretty good at getting skinny and getting through small holes in the middle, much better than Moreno. Hillman didn't break any tackles.

 

Who doesn't improve at their pro day? Seriously, has there ever been a player with a bad combine performance who didn't have some excuse and improve at their pro day? The combine is the only real standard we have that we can fairly use to assess these guys because we know they'll all be measured by the same process, people, etc. And according to that standard he was below average. But if you want to ignore the combine, I'm actually fine with that. Tape is more important, and he never impressed me on tape.

 

You're seriously comparing Montee Ball to Lesean McCoy? Lesean McCoy? Do you know how silly that sounds? McCoy is one of the most elusive backs in the league with near elite quickness. Ball can't touch that. Now McCoy didn't participate in his combine, so we can't look at their numbers, but as Ball finished behind a guy like Le'Veon Bell in the 10 yd split, 3 cone, and short shuttle, I think we can assume that the two would ahve been on different planets. That's almost, not quite, but almost as good as Crash telling me that Wolfe's rookie year was comparable to J.J. Watt's.

 

The overall talent of your OL is probably better than Houston's or Washington's. But better at running the zone in particular? I seriously doubt it. I know Vasquez will have issues. I would imagine it isn't Franklin's game either.

 

I know Hillman didn't try to bounce everthing outside, I'm just saying that that's what he did in college and he's yet to prove he can be an effective interior runner in the NFL. I don't think that will be his game. That's my only point.

Edited June 19, 2013 by KempBolt

[SolomonGrundy 10]

Who doesn't improve at their pro day? Seriously, has there ever been a player with a bad combine performance who didn't have some excuse and improve at their pro day? The combine is the only real standard we have that we can fairly use to assess these guys because we know they'll all be measured by the same process, people, etc. And according to that standard he was below average. But if you want to ignore the combine, I'm actually fine with that. Tape is more important, and he never impressed me on tape.

 

You're seriously comparing Montee Ball to Lesean McCoy? Lesean McCoy? Do you know how silly that sounds? McCoy is one of the most elusive backs in the league with near elite quickness. Ball can't touch that. Now McCoy didn't participate in his combine, so we can't look at their numbers, but as Ball finished behind a guy like Le'Veon Bell in the 10 yd split, 3 cone, and short shuttle, I think we can assume that the two would ahve been on different planets. That's almost, not quite, but almost as good as Crash telling me that Wolfe's rookie year was comparable to J.J. Watt's.

 

The overall talent of your OL is probably better than Houston's or Washington's. But better at running the zone in particular? I seriously doubt it. I know Vasquez will have issues. I would imagine it isn't Franklin's game either.

 

I know Hillman didn't try to bounce everthing outside, I'm just saying that that's what he did in college and he's yet to prove he can be an effective interior runner in the NFL. I don't think that will be his game. That's my only point.

 

I wasn't comparing them as RBs, simply their numbers. I think Ball is more similar to Matt Forte as a RB more than anyone (although Elway would say Terrell Davis). McCoy did participate at his pro day and his pro day numbers are very similar to Ball's pro day numbers. McCoy ran a 4.5 so did Ball. 1.52 10 yard split for McCoy, 1.56 for Ball. 2.59 20 yard split for McCoy, 2.57 for Ball. 4.18 20 yard shuttle for McCoy, 4.11 for Ball. 6.82 3 cone drill for McCoy, and Ball had a 6.88 at the combine (didn't do it at his pro day). And Ball did that at 10 lbs. heavier than McCoy. McCoy has gotten faster and quicker since coming into the NFL but I don't see a huge difference between McCoy coming out and Ball right now.

 

Vasquez would do a lot better in a zone scheme. He was a pretty average run blocker (if that) in San Diego's scheme. The zone scheme will be able to mask that. Franklin is a lot more athletic than people think. He'll struggle against speed rushers from time to time, but his athleticism really shows when he run blocks. I don't see him struggling to transition at all. Shanny got away with George Foster at RT for years and he was garbage, Franklin will excel. Alex Gibbs is one of the best o-line coaches ever, Dave Magazu is one of the top o-line coaches in the NFL right now. We're not going to go full on zone blocking either, we'll have a lot of power looks as well. Either way this o-line is going to be very good this year.

[KempBolt 498]

I think those are two very, very optimistic comparisons.

[housemd 338]

Raiders could use him. Have that 1,2 RB punch again like we once had! A McFadden/McGahee backfield would be nice!

That would be a lethal backfield if they both manage to stay healthy. Add Marcel Reese there,who is also a good pass catcher.

[Crash 105]

I think those are two very, very optimistic comparisons.

Just cause you don't want to believe the numbers doesn't make it true. The numbers are almost a mirror image except that McCoy is more of a athlete while ball is a pounder. You don't have to like a guy but to just ignore the numbers is a bad idea.

 

I think you need to revisit ronnie hillman because I keep hearing that he's a COP back that likes to run outside and it's just not true. Rewatch his games at sdsu and his best runs are between the tackles and usually he's physically broken a tackle or two not just danced. Same in the Baltimore game, did he run outside? Yes but he also ran just as well between the tackles. Most likely we will carry all 3 of Moreno, Ball and Hillman on game day and they will rotate every series to keep each other fresh because we will be running a very uptempo offense.

 

I know everyone thinks we are going back to the ZBS when they see we brought in Gibbs but he isn't our oline coach and was brought in to help develop some of our younger oline talent. We will be running some zone scheme but we also ran some of it last year.

Edited June 27, 2013 by Crash

[KempBolt 498]

Just cause you don't want to believe the numbers doesn't make it true. The numbers are almost a mirror image except that McCoy is more of a athlete while ball is a pounder. You don't have to like a guy but to just ignore the numbers is a bad idea.

 

I think you need to revisit ronnie hillman because I keep hearing that he's a COP back that likes to run outside and it's just not true. Rewatch his games at sdsu and his best runs are between the tackles and usually he's physically broken a tackle or two not just danced. Same in the Baltimore game, did he run outside? Yes but he also ran just as well between the tackles. Most likely we will carry all 3 of Moreno, Ball and Hillman on game day and they will rotate every series to keep each other fresh because we will be running a very uptempo offense.

 

I know everyone thinks we are going back to the ZBS when they see we brought in Gibbs but he isn't our oline coach and was brought in to help develop some of our younger oline talent. We will be running some zone scheme but we also ran some of it last year.

 

You can think whatever you want about Ball, but it's a little odd to compare him to one of the most elusive runners in the NFL and then tell me I'm ignoring evidence for being a skeptic because of McCoy's pro day numbers. I watched Ball play in college, and I watched McCoy play in college. There's no comparison there IMO. We talk about combine numbers because it's something tangible that we can cite, but ultimately you and I aren't going to agree because we have different opinions about what we saw Ball do at Wisconsin. But you kind of have a habit of comparing unproven or under-proven Broncos to current NFL greats, so there you have it I guess.

 

I'm an SDSU alum. I didn't miss any of Hillman's games and I'm not talking out of my backside on this one. When he played good defenses in college, he had trouble inside. Just look at what he did against BSU and TCU in 2011. And his preference was to bounce runs out anyways. It's not a bad thing to be a COP back, it's just a different role than the starer who establishes the run. I think he'll be good, just not a starter. And I think you may need to be the one that revisits the subject, because everything I've said about him in college held true last year with the Broncos. He didn't find any consistent success between the tackles.

 

And I never suggested that you're going to the ZBS. Solomon did. I merely suggested that your personnel might not be the best fit for that approach. But most teams in the NFL run a little of everything.

[Crash 105]

You can think whatever you want about Ball, but it's a little odd to compare him to one of the most elusive runners in the NFL and then tell me I'm ignoring evidence for being a skeptic because of McCoy's pro day numbers. I watched Ball play in college, and I watched McCoy play in college. There's no comparison there IMO. We talk about combine numbers because it's something tangible that we can cite, but ultimately you and I aren't going to agree because we have different opinions about what we saw Ball do at Wisconsin. But you kind of have a habit of comparing unproven or under-proven Broncos to current NFL greats, so there you have it I guess.

 

I'm an SDSU alum. I didn't miss any of Hillman's games and I'm not talking out of my backside on this one. When he played good defenses in college, he had trouble inside. Just look at what he did against BSU and TCU in 2011. And his preference was to bounce runs out anyways. It's not a bad thing to be a COP back, it's just a different role than the starer who establishes the run. I think he'll be good, just not a starter. And I think you may need to be the one that revisits the subject, because everything I've said about him in college held true last year with the Broncos. He didn't find any consistent success between the tackles.

 

And I never suggested that you're going to the ZBS. Solomon did. I merely suggested that your personnel might not be the best fit for that approach. But most teams in the NFL run a little of everything.

Again we won't be using hillman as a cop back. He will be 1a and ball will be 1b, they won't come out on drives and we won't rotate a 3rd down back in. Combine numbers are a easy way to show a guys burst in his time shuttle runs and the 40 which compare to mccoys, doesn't have to do with running style what so ever. McCoy runs around guys ball can run through them

[Omerta+ 1,206]

Just cause you don't want to believe the numbers doesn't make it true. The numbers are almost a mirror image except that McCoy is more of a athlete while ball is a pounder. You don't have to like a guy but to just ignore the numbers is a bad idea.

 

 

Haha using combine results as numbers

 

You know Vernon Gholston has almost an identical combine to clay matthews...

[Crash 105]

Haha using combine results as numbers

 

You know Vernon Gholston has almost an identical combine to clay matthews...

Yep and because one was born to work hard in Matthews and gholston doesn't which shows because one is a bust and ones a success. Your going to succeed on talent alone. Aaron curry was billed as the Von miller type when he was drafted but because he isn't a hard worker he hasn't succeed. You can been big time in college on just your talent but the pros will bleed you out in just a couple years