Pre Combine Top 5 by position

[DonovanMcnabb for H.O.F 2,241]

I didn't/haven't separated 4-3 OLBs from ILBs yet, nor have I separated other front 7 positions from the 4-3 guys to the 3-4 guys.

 

 

 

QBs:

1. Jameis Winston, Florida State

2. Brett Hundley, UCLA
3. Marcus Mariota, Oregon

4. Bryce Petty, Baylor
5. Garrett Grayson, Colorado State

 

HBs:

1. Melvin Gordon, Wisconsin

2. Todd Gurley, Georgia
3. Duke Johnson, Miami
4. Ameer Abdullah, Nebraska
5. Tevin Coleman, Indiana

 

WR:

1. Amari Cooper, Alabama

2. Kevin White, West Virginia

3. Dorial Green-Beckham , Missouri**

4. DeVante Parker, Louisville
5. Devin Funchess, Michigan

TEs:

1. Maxx Williams, Minnesota

2. Devin Funchess, Michigan
3. Tyler Kroft, Rutgers

4. Jeff Heuerman, Ohio State

5. Nick O’Leary, FSU

 

OTs:

1. Andrus Peat, Stanford

2. T.J. Clemmings, Pittsburgh

3. Ronnie Stanley, Notre Dame

4. La’el Collins, LSU

5. Cedric Ogbuehi, TA&M

 

OGs:

1. Brandon Scherff, Iowa

2. La'el Collins, LSU

3. Cameron Erving, Florida State

4. A.J. Cann, South Carolina

5. Jake Fisher, Oregon

 

Cs:

1. Cameron Erving, Florida State
2. Hroniss Grassu, Oregon
3. Reese Dismukes, Auburn
4. B.J. Finney, Kansas State
5. Andy Gallik, Boston College

 

DTs:

1. Leonard Williams, USC

2. Jordan Phillips, Oklahoma

3. Michael Bennett, Ohio State
4. Danny Shelton, Washington

5. Malcolm Brown, Texas

 

EDGE:

1. Randy Gregory, Nebraska

2. Dante Fowler Jr., Florida
3. Shane Ray, Missouri

4. Owamagbe Odighizuwa ,UCLA

5. Mario Edwards Jr., Florida State

LBs:

1. Vic Beasley, Clemson

2. Shaq Thompson, Washington
3. Denzel Perryman, Miami

4. Paul Dawson, TCU
5. Benardrick McKinney, Mississippi State

 

CBs:

1. Marcus Peters, Washington
2. Trae Waynes, Michigan State

3. Ronald Darby, Florida State
4. P.J. Williams, Florida State

5. Jalen Collins, LSU

 

S:
1. Chris Hackett - S - TCU
2. Landon Collins - S - Alabama

3. Gerod Holliman, Louisville
4. Derron Smith, Fresno State
5. Damarious Randall, Arizona State

 

 

[butta54 371]

Bruh.....Hundley over Mariota? Gonna have to explain that one to me.

 

Also don't think Collins or Fisher will be guards.

[Cherry 1,302]

Stanley went back to school.

 

Denzel Perryman moving up?

[DonovanMcnabb for H.O.F 2,241]

...I had no idea about Stanley. lol.

 

Bruh.....Hundley over Mariota? Gonna have to explain that one to me.

 

Also don't think Collins or Fisher will be guards.

 

I think Fisher can play every position outside of center effectively. Him and Collins. He's great at pulling, very athletic, and is used to blocking on the second level. I have them both ranked higher as guards because their aren't that many top guards in this draft.

[butta54 371]

...I had no idea about Stanley. lol.

 

 

I think Fisher can play every position outside of center effectively. Him and Collins. He's great at pulling, very athletic, and is used to blocking on the second level. I have them both ranked higher as guards because their aren't that many top guards in this draft.

 

Conveniently ignored the real question lol

 

Actually I think this year's class of guards are about 10x better than last year's class. I personally have two I would take in the first round, but I can agree there are no top tier guys. With that being said there aren't too many first round guys at tackle that would be moved to guard for no reason. Zack Martin last year didn't have the size people wanted but he also was a great guard. Scherff is a guard in my mind because his skill set is better in that position. Fisher though has the length and athleticism you want at tackle, and not to mention I felt he was kinda trash blocking the second level IMO.

[Favre4Ever+ 4,476]

Hundley and Grayson will have better careers than Winston and Mariota.

Book that shit.

[DonovanMcnabb for H.O.F 2,241]

 

Conveniently ignored the real question lol

 

Actually I think this year's class of guards are about 10x better than last year's class. I personally have two I would take in the first round, but I can agree there are no top tier guys. With that being said there aren't too many first round guys at tackle that would be moved to guard for no reason. Zack Martin last year didn't have the size people wanted but he also was a great guard. Scherff is a guard in my mind because his skill set is better in that position. Fisher though has the length and athleticism you want at tackle, and not to mention I felt he was kinda trash blocking the second level IMO.

 

Haha, I ignored the question moreso because I thought I had already had the conversation with you, but it turns out it was Chernobyl instead.

 

Anyway, when comparing the two, neither have game film that's all that transferable to the NFL. So we are judging them based off of tools more then anything else.

 

Neither one of them should be starting right off the bat. But if I could take either to sit and learn, it'd be Hundley.

 

As far as Fisher is concerned, he's got the frame to be a great OT, but he's not there yet. His skillset better fits as a RT or a guard. Great run blocker, capable of getting on and off double teams, but that pass blocking, has a lot of issues. I'm surprised you didn't like him on the second level, etc. He had a lot of great blocks against LBs, and a lot of people project him excelling in a zone blocking scheme.

Edited February 19, 2015 by DonovanMcnabb for H.O.F

[butta54 371]

 

Haha, I ignored the question moreso because I thought I had already had the conversation with you, but it turns out it was Chernobyl instead.

 

Anyway, when comparing the two, neither have game film that's all that transferable to the NFL. So we are judging them based off of tools more then anything else.

 

Neither one of them should be starting right off the bat. But if I could take either to sit and learn, it'd be Hundley.

 

As far as Fisher is concerned, he's got the frame to be a great OT, but he's not there yet. His skillset better fits as a RT or a guard. Great run blocker, capable of getting on and off double teams, but that pass blocking, has a lot of issues. I'm surprised you didn't like him on the second level, etc. He had a lot of great blocks against LBs, and a lot of people project him excelling in a zone blocking scheme.

 

I like Fisher in a zone scheme because of his mobility. His pass pro isn't polished yes, but I didn't think it was terrible. He weighs in right around 300lbs...that is way too lean for me to see him on the right side or inside at guard. He is a brawler and has an attitude of a guard I will give you that, but his body type is suited for LT. Great hands and quick feet...the rest can be worked on.

 

Now without getting into a long conversation about Mariota and Hundley I will say this isn't close because Mariota has perhaps the best passing mechanics I've seen from a QB in awhile. I was all ready to write him off as a spread QB who won't translate, but he has been incredibly coached by someone because when I watched him on film he has all the perfect passing techniques. That will go a long way.

[DonovanMcnabb for H.O.F 2,241]

IDK how anyone can come to a conclusion like that when he plays in an offense that masks every mechanical flaw he may or may not have.

 

Even when operating out of the shotgun his footwork in of itself was questionable at best. It's even worse the few times he was asked to drop back from center.

 

And that's before we even take into account the fact that he played in a simplified offense where he could focus on the little things like mechanics. But then you throw in the fact he'll have to learn a pro style offense...

[butta54 371]

Don't take what I said to mean his footwork, ability to read coverage, and check plays is anything close to being polished.

 

I said his THROWING mechanics. The key parts to delivering the ball in the proper way. That was the only thing I was speaking on. Without getting too technical the gist of it is Mariota throws with a high release point with a downward trajectory which is what you want to create maximum velocity. He brings his passing leg through on his throws which creates the most torque from the hips. His posture is balanced before delivering and his stroke (time from holding the ball to throwing the ball) is extremely effiecient with no wasted time winding up.

 

Again his footwork, his pocket awareness & manipulation, and all those other things have huge room for improvement. I'm just speaking to his throwing mechanics which I would say 80% of QBs don't have in the NFL and his clean mechanics could give him an advantage as he gets better.

 

Also I wouldn't be so quick to claim this system covered him up. He ran a alot of three-in-one plays which he has a choice to hand the ball off, run it, or throw it. Some of them are gimmicky but some require a serious commitment to decision-making. Also their non play-action passing plays were pretty standard pro concepts in which he had to read coverage.

[DonovanMcnabb for H.O.F 2,241]

That's fair. But at the end of the day, bad footwork means bad throw, unless you have a live arm.

 

And even with his tight throwing mechanics from the waist up, depending on how they take the snap, it can affect their drop back, their throwing mechanics, and if they're uncomfortable in their steps, their throws might be a split second too late. We saw it happen all the time with MM at the bowl game, where his throws were off.

 

Passing from under center is a different beast altogether, and it's something that he's going to have to learn how to do. 3 step drops, 5 step drops, 7 step drops, etc, from under center, remembering that his feet have to be so far apart, or close, the timing and length of his steps, are all things that he hasn't had to do, and will have to learn all over. Who knows how his throwing motion/mechanics are going to look after all that?

 

That's why to me, I just don't see him as anything more then a project early on. Even his greatest strengths as a thrower imo have to be questioned moving forward because we don't know how it'll translate. And with that being the case, at least to me, it makes sense to compare him to another guy who'd be a project.

[Bucman 891]

Taking snaps from under center in todays NFL is overrated.

[DonovanMcnabb for H.O.F 2,241]

Tell that to Bryce Petty at the Senior Bowl...

[butta54 371]

That entirely depends on the system. There aren't many teams in the league that go under center much more than 40% of the time. Especially when you are throwing there is a good chance most teams are out of the shotgun. Under center is now only being used for run game, play-action, and rollout type of plays. I agree there is a learning curve to learning how to drop back and throw on rhythm, but that just means the team that takes him probably won't be running a quick rhythm passing game. Winston didn't throw from under center that much either. He did some play-action stuff, and even he looked sloppy doing it.

 

I don't believe Mariota has bad footwork. That is the fundamental different between our opinions. When he has to go through a progression (which wasn't often) he showed he can step up in the pocket and make a throw. He also is very aware of pressure and moves to make a throw not to just run away like these other QBs.

 

Your natural arm slot, stroke, and follow-through are the same whenever you deliver the ball. Getting back in his drops, and the timing of it all can be thrown off, but I don't expect a team to ask him to run that type of vertical offense.

 

Hundley's throwing mechanics are pretty subpar. His velocity isn't that great and he doesn't use his lower body torque to deliver the pass. Now throw that on top of the fact that his offense was A LOT more one-read stuff. And when he did have to read coverage he wasn't that good at it. He scrambled whenever he didn't see his first read and was sacked more times than any college QB I watched. He holds the ball and doesn't manipulate the pocket.

 

Even if you didn't like Mariota as much as me, there is no way Hundley is close to him IMO.

[DonovanMcnabb for H.O.F 2,241]

That entirely depends on the system. There aren't many teams in the league that go under center much more than 40% of the time. Especially when you are throwing there is a good chance most teams are out of the shotgun. Under center is now only being used for run game, play-action, and rollout type of plays. I agree there is a learning curve to learning how to drop back and throw on rhythm, but that just means the team that takes him probably won't be running a quick rhythm passing game. Winston didn't throw from under center that much either. He did some play-action stuff, and even he looked sloppy doing it.

 

I don't believe Mariota has bad footwork. That is the fundamental different between our opinions. When he has to go through a progression (which wasn't often) he showed he can step up in the pocket and make a throw. He also is very aware of pressure and moves to make a throw not to just run away like these other QBs.

 

Your natural arm slot, stroke, and follow-through are the same whenever you deliver the ball. Getting back in his drops, and the timing of it all can be thrown off, but I don't expect a team to ask him to run that type of vertical offense.

 

Hundley's throwing mechanics are pretty subpar. His velocity isn't that great and he doesn't use his lower body torque to deliver the pass. Now throw that on top of the fact that his offense was A LOT more one-read stuff. And when he did have to read coverage he wasn't that good at it. He scrambled whenever he didn't see his first read and was sacked more times than any college QB I watched. He holds the ball and doesn't manipulate the pocket.

 

Even if you didn't like Mariota as much as me, there is no way Hundley is close to him IMO.

 

Virtually every knock against Hundley that you made, I can make similar for MM.

 

Coming from a simple offense, and one reads? Check. If anything MM actually has it far easier then Hundley had it at UCLA. Hundley has had more experience, and more success throwing the ball into NFL type windows.

 

Subpar mechanics? Have you seen MM when his first read isn't open? Everything from his footwork to his vision go down the drain most of the time.

 

Stepping into sacks? Do I even need to go there? MM sees pressure when there's nothing. Rolls out of the pocket for no reason. So many times you see the guy moving around in the pocket for no reason.

 

Again. Both of these guys are projects. But Hundley has everything you look for from a tools perspective from a QB. Better size, quicker release, stronger arm, more potential.

[butta54 371]

 

Virtually every knock against Hundley that you made, I can make similar for MM.

 

Coming from a simple offense, and one reads? Check. If anything MM actually has it far easier then Hundley had it at UCLA. Hundley has had more experience, and more success throwing the ball into NFL type windows.

 

Subpar mechanics? Have you seen MM when his first read isn't open? Everything from his footwork to his vision go down the drain most of the time.

 

Stepping into sacks? Do I even need to go there? MM sees pressure when there's nothing. Rolls out of the pocket for no reason. So many times you see the guy moving around in the pocket for no reason.

 

Again. Both of these guys are projects. But Hundley has everything you look for from a tools perspective from a QB. Better size, quicker release, stronger arm, more potential.

 

We have to agree to disagree here.

 

Hundley's throwing mechanics don't touch Mariota's in my world. From what I've been taught about ideal throwing mechanics Hundley's arm slot and delivery point is slightly sideways. His release mechanically can't be as quick and his throwing velocity is not the same as Mariota's I'm not sure how you get that. Mariota gets the ball there just as quick as Winston when he is aimed up to his target.

 

I didn't see the poor pocket manipulation you talk about with Mariota either. He was pretty fine as far as "seeing ghost" from the games I watched this year. He goes down on blitzes, but he doesn't just run around for any reason. He scrambles much like Russ Wilson getting clear of things in order to deliver a pass down field. Again Hundley was sacked more than any QB I've seen while evaluating them. He was sacked 124 times in his career while Mariota was sacked 66 times. Like I said Hundley holds the ball too long and will take off when his first read isn't there.

 

Where are these NFL type windows that Hundley threw into that Maritoa didn't?? Watch any non-PA and non-bubble pass play from Oregon....especially in the playoffs and you will see down the field and west coast concepts. Mariota can go through his progression going from one and two reads to three and four. Again he might scramble to open up a passing lane, but he doesn't just take off like Hundley. Just watch the eyes, Hundley rarely ever looks to the other side of the field once the ball snaps and he is staring at his read.

[DonovanMcnabb for H.O.F 2,241]

You and I must be watching a different guy then. Because in most of the games, even this year, it's most of the same.

 

The only game where I see him actually do more then just one step, quick read and throw was OSU. And we all know how that turned out.

 

Even in the OSU game, whenever he was asked to make an NFL throw, it was incomplete. Most of his completions came on passes where the ball traveled less then 5 yards, or guys were wide open due to play-action and confusing formations/yards.

[butta54 371]

The OSU game was full of drops by his receivers. He did have some bad misses in that game that had me scratching my head. Arizona and UCLA are just two games this year where you can see it. As I said the non-PA and non-bubble pass plays. There aren't a ton of those plays, but when asked to do it he does a way better job than Hundley and its not even close.

[DonovanMcnabb for H.O.F 2,241]

I guess that's where we differ. Lol. I don't think there's anywhere near a big enough sample size of those kinda plays to cone to any conclusion like that of either. Which is why all I look at are there tools.

[butta54 371]

I think that is a valid reason.

 

But for me just because a guy wasn't asked to do something a lot doesn't me he can't do it. Just knowing Mariota and the training he has, I know he is more prepared to read coverages.

[Wattafan 28]

I think that is a valid reason.

 

But for me just because a guy wasn't asked to do something a lot doesn't me he can't do it. Just knowing Mariota and the training he has, I know he is more prepared to read coverages.

Enjoyed the dialogue between you and Donovan.

Would like your take on Grayson?

[butta54 371]

Enjoyed the dialogue between you and Donovan.

Would like your take on Grayson?

 

Grayson is a extremely average prospect to me. His mechanics are really bad which results in his passing velocity being really average.

 

The offense he ran is pretty interesting seeing as it wasn't entirely spread and had obvious west coast concepts with short and quick passes. He was good throwing the high % throws, didn't wow me at all but still pretty solid. His deep ball was pretty trashy. He could hit someone wide open, but couldn't make a throw against a defender going deep.

 

He locked onto his first option like most spread QBs. He didn't show me that he could go through a full progression and find his other targets. Part of this was becuase he is a statue in the pocket. He will stand tall and make a throw, but he won't get away from any sacks. Most the time he just goes down and takes the sack without thinking like Peyton Manning.

 

Again an average prospect, but his throwing mechanics really scare me.