Valve and Paid Mods

[Thanatos 2,847]

So, Valve kinda created an internet shitstorm today.

 

There are, as of now, 17 mods on the Skyrim workshop that are no longer free, but for which you must now pay.

 

Mods, for those of you who don't know, are user-created modifications. For all sorts of legal reasons, these need to be free. For example, a modder that places Link from the Legend of Zelda into Skyrim and then profiting off of this work would stir up all sorts of problems.

 

On top of the legal ramifications, Valve is taking 30% of the cut. Bethesda is taking 45% more. So the modders themselves are only getting 25%.

 

In essence, Bethesda and Valve are now charging for DLC that they did not create, including DLC that is basically nothing more than fixing glitches in their game, (SkyUI, for example, is a mod that overhauls the UI entirely because the base one included in the game utterly sucks. It is one of the mods that is now "behind the paywall.").

 

The mod workshop has been flooded with a ton of "new" mods that are shitty rip-offs or shitty mods in general from people hoping to get approved and thus make a quick buck.

 

This entire thing is utterly and completely an awful, awful idea, and I frankly can't believe Valve thought it was. Gabe Newell was on Reddit for two hours doing an AMA and he does think its a good thing. He was downvoted to hell for it, but this is apparently here to stay.

 

There's already been legal controversy in the first 24 hours.

Edited April 26, 2015 by Thanatos19

[theMileHighGuy 656]

It's just insanity. Valve and Bethesda's last-ditch effort to make revenue on a 4 year old game. This kind of rampant greed is why piracy is a thing. It certainly raises a ton of questions.

 

What does SkyUI cost for instance? Also on that note, how can they charge for SKSE which is required to run a lot of the better mods, when it's privately hosted? Maybe they don't.

 

Is there a grandfather law to it? If your game contains mods that are now pay mods, do you have to pay for them again before it will work?

 

I wonder if they will try to shutdown sites like Nexus who can offer these same things for free.

 

I don't hate that the modders themselves will collect something from it, some of them surely deserve it, but the profit margin is too little for the creator and obviously much too high for the guys who are literally doing nothing.

 

I think this is definitely a trial-run to get ahead of what will surely be a huge GTA V modding community. Hopefully Rockstar will do the right thing, but if Valve is the master mind behind it, their hands are kind of tied.

[Sparty 110]

Yet when they come out with the next Elder Scrolls, you'll still get it and be a dedicated fan, which is why they see no risks in this decision. It may piss you off, but they don't care. Shit, probably just generated more free press.

[Vin+ 3,121]

https://www.reddit.com/r/gaming/comments/33uplp/mods_and_steam/

[Favre4Ever+ 4,476]

Only thing that is such a travesty are those splits of revenue. Lol, what a joke.

As far as putting Link in Skyrim, they simply don't monetize those mods... Not really a big deal.

[Thanatos 2,847]

 

Only thing that is such a travesty are those splits of revenue. Lol, what a joke.

 

As far as putting Link in Skyrim, they simply don't monetize those mods... Not really a big deal.

 

If you think a company like Valve is capable of policing the mods correctly, you haven't read up on how they handled Greenlight. Valve's team is terrible at these kind of things and they simply aren't big enough.

 

That's really the only thing?

 

How about this: A LOT of mods rely on other mods to work. SKSE, as MHG pointed out, is used in a ton of mods. Do mods that use this mod have to pay the authors of SKSE, if they so choose, a percentage of their profits? We've already had Chesko removing all his mods in protest after a legal fiasco involving the Art of the Catch, which was a mod which introduced animated fishing into the game, since AotC uses another mod from a free modder who is completely against paid mods and is refusing to let his mod be used in any paid mod.

 

You've split the community overnight, a community that had basically no dissension, by introducing something for which there was no demand whatsoever. The only thing anyone has ever brought up is a donation button on Steam, much like on the Nexus.

 

If each mod was individual and didn't rely on any other mod to work, this would be a significantly less thorny issue. That isn't the reality of modding.

 

Here's you another bad consequence: lazy developing. Bethesda is already known for releasing games that have a ton of bugs in them. Where's their incentive to bug check everything when they know some modder can fix these bugs and then Bethesda can potentially make 45% of the profit for work that isn't theirs, that is in fact fixing bugs in their game? Note that this was already an issue, since they knew it would be fixed for free, now its just even worse.

 

Here's you another one: Modders do not get paid in real money until their mod makes $400, (i.e. until their profit exceeds $100). Up until then, its paid in steam wallet funds.

 

@Spartan: I am not, in fact, going to be buying ES6.

 

@MHG: The guy who runs Nexus mods has already responded and said there is no way Steam can shut them down, nor does Steam want to try. That isn't the point of this.

 

 

I think this is definitely a trial-run to get ahead of what will surely be a huge GTA V modding community. Hopefully Rockstar will do the right thing, but if Valve is the master mind behind it, their hands are kind of tied.

 

Valve can set the 30% profit-share and introduce paid mods regardless of what Rockstar does. Rockstar can then choose to add a further % if they wish.

 

Here's another consequence: What about updates to the game breaking the mod? This happens all the time and it also happens to break your save game many times so you have to restart if you want to update. What about when this happens off a paid mod? Angry consumers.

 

 

Here are the two comments on the Reddit thread that basically sums up why this is a terrible fucking idea without just screaming about it. I included an excerpt from each one so you can get the feel of it.

 

First comment

 

This issue of monitization creates so many points of abuse and demonstrates a firm lack of ethics on the part of everyone involved.

1. There is no one who benefits from these transactions other than you or Bethesda.

• 
  You claim that this is helping modders by giving them a revenue stream, but what you don't address is that this turns previously hobbyist work into a product.
  
• 
  As a product, consumers have expectations (rightfully so) that products they purchase must work and be worth the amount charged. This means that these paid modders will be the only ones who shoulder the burden and backlash anytime something in their mod either breaks or conflicts with another mod. Thus these modders for a measly 25% are roped into doing massive amounts of required updating and patching or or will have their reputation dragged through the mud by angry consumers.
  

 

Second one

1. 
   Now that people are paying for mods they will feel entitled for these mods to continue working. If a free mod breaks and isn't supported that is fine because there is no obligation for it to continue working. If someone pays though they will expect the mod to be updated and continue working as the base game is updated. Furthermore, abandoned but popular mods are often revived by other people; if these mods are paid then the original creator may not want people to profit off of updated versions of their mod.
   

Edited April 30, 2015 by Zack_of_Steel

[Favre4Ever+ 4,476]

 

If you think a company like Valve is capable of policing the mods correctly, you haven't read up on how they handled Greenlight. Valve's team is terrible at these kind of things and they simply aren't big enough.

 

That's really the only thing?

 

How about this: A LOT of mods rely on other mods to work. SKSE, as MHG pointed out, is used in a ton of mods. Do mods that use this mod have to pay the authors of SKSE, if they so choose, a percentage of their profits? We've already had Chesko removing all his mods in protest after a legal fiasco involving the Art of the Catch, which was a mod which introduced animated fishing into the game, since AotC uses another mod from a free modder who is completely against paid mods and is refusing to let his mod be used in any paid mod.

 

You've split the community overnight, a community that had basically no dissension, by introducing something for which there was no demand whatsoever. The only thing anyone has ever brought up is a donation button on Steam, much like on the Nexus.

 

If each mod was individual and didn't rely on any other mod to work, this would be a significantly less thorny issue. That isn't the reality of modding.

 

Here's you another bad consequence: lazy developing. Bethesda is already known for releasing games that have a ton of bugs in them. Where's their incentive to bug check everything when they know some modder can fix these bugs and then Bethesda can potentially make 45% of the profit for work that isn't theirs, that is in fact fixing bugs in their game? Note that this was already an issue, since they knew it would be fixed for free, now its just even worse.

 

Here's you another one: Modders do not get paid in real money until their mod makes $400, (i.e. until their profit exceeds $100). Up until then, its paid in steam wallet funds.

Uh if you think that I think Valve is capable of ANYTHING, you haven't paid attention to my opinion of them over the years. Lol. i find them grossly incompetent, money hungry douchebags, who have been raping the community for years.. It just so happens now they are bending people over in broad daylight and in public before penetrating instead of in a dark alley somewhere.

 

You either split the money for everyone that contributed work on the mod or again... Don't monetize it or pull it completely.

 

I already agree on the cuts being ridiculous, so.. nothing else to say there.

 

This is correct to a degree.. They are charging for mods they didn't create, but mods that use their IP . They have every right to take make money off the mods, legally IMO... Just a matter of how much do they deserve. I dunno what the right numbers are.. But they aren't right where they are currently.

 

I think the general complaints of you and the community are legit, don't get me wrong. But I think a lot of them have pretty obvious / easy solutions as well.

[Thanatos 2,847]

Uh if you think that I think Valve is capable of ANYTHING, you haven't paid attention to my opinion of them over the years. Lol. i find them grossly incompetent, money hungry douchebags, who have been raping the community for years.. It just so happens now they are bending people over in broad daylight and in public before penetrating instead of in a dark alley somewhere.

 

You either split the money for everyone that contributed work on the mod or again... Don't monetize it or pull it completely.

 

I already agree on the cuts being ridiculous, so.. nothing else to say there.

 

This is correct to a degree.. They are charging for mods they didn't create, but mods that use their IP . They have every right to take make money off the mods, legally IMO... Just a matter of how much do they deserve. I dunno what the right numbers are.. But they aren't right where they are currently.

 

I think the general complaints of you and the community are legit, don't get me wrong. But I think a lot of them have pretty obvious / easy solutions as well.

 

Mods that use their IP, some of which, such as the unofficial Skyrim patch, that fixes a laundry list of bugs. If the author puts this behind a paywall, now Bethesda is going to get paid for something they should have done for free.

 

Its a thorny issue that was needlessly introduced due to the greed of two corporations. I'm done with Steam. I won't buy another cent on this system until this change is reversed and I'm very doubtful that it will be.

Edited April 26, 2015 by Thanatos19

[Favre4Ever+ 4,476]

I don't blame you.

I definitely overstated though when I said the only thing to worry about. There are a lot of issues that arise because of this, as you have fairly stated. I do think Valve will patch up 90% of those with tape though to keep this system "working" (I use that term very loosely) though.

The biggest issue, seriously and without trying to overstate things (I hope) is the risk of 'lazy' developers. Developers, more these days than ever before in the industry, are on massively strict timelines. So what this does... Is give developers free reign to cut features that they like or may feel should be added, but that they don't have time to add. They may have cut them before , but now there really isn't an incentive to not cut those features because... They can just let the modders do it and still haul in nearly half of the profits from that addition that they voluntarily felt safe in cutting.

 

It does suck, it is a really shitty situation that has no benefit to customers or fans and the benefit to modders is marginal at best when you consider some of the half-assed knock off mods that will get monetized and what have you.

Overall, it really only benefits two entities, and I think the community has figured that out already.

[Thanatos 2,847]

And its clearly a test/precedent setter. If this "works", Valve will do it for as many games as they can get away with. Disgusting. ValvEA.

[theMileHighGuy 656]

I think the product guarantee that Than mentioned could turn into the biggest issue here. They're charging you for a product that they can neither guarantee or support. Typing that out makes it feel worse, lol. Mods in general are finicky, and can come with serious risks to your game. I doubt it will get to the point of a class-action lawsuit

 

Them playing it off as necessary to cover costs of hosting the mods themselves is just lulzworthy.

 

I wasn't really a big user of steam before, this certainly isn't going to sway me back to them

 

I don't see how they can't do anything about third-party modding sites. It completely undermines their new system.

[Favre4Ever+ 4,476]

As far as problems go for customers and whatnot, ya I think that will be a big issue. But all Steam/Valve has to do is include that in some kind of ToS and they are totally in the clear.Won't stop people from experiencing those issues and potentially lashing out for them, but hopefully that does more into convincing them not to buy these things at all instead of buying them and just complaining about it afterwards.

[Bucman 891]

Think Valve has said badly rated mods will be removed. Also the TOS says the dev doesn't haven't to maintain the mod once its completed.

[Thanatos 2,847]

 

I think the product guarantee that Than mentioned could turn into the biggest issue here. They're charging you for a product that they can neither guarantee or support. Typing that out makes it feel worse, lol. Mods in general are finicky, and can come with serious risks to your game. I doubt it will get to the point of a class-action lawsuit

 

Them playing it off as necessary to cover costs of hosting the mods themselves is just lulzworthy.

 

I wasn't really a big user of steam before, this certainly isn't going to sway me back to them

 

I don't see how they can't do anything about third-party modding sites. It completely undermines their new system.

 

What. What.

 

Where the fuck did they claim that? Dear lord.

 

As far as problems go for customers and whatnot, ya I think that will be a big issue. But all Steam/Valve has to do is include that in some kind of ToS and they are totally in the clear.Won't stop people from experiencing those issues and potentially lashing out for them, but hopefully that does more into convincing them not to buy these things at all instead of buying them and just complaining about it afterwards.

 

Are they? Do you not think there could still be a legal case, ToS or no? Asking honestly here, I'm not sure. But if I buy a defective product and they're like, well its in the ToS, its still a defective product. I don't think ToS let you get away with that.

 

 

Another issue: After you buy a mod you only have 24 hours to ask for a refund. This is clearly not enough time to do a large quest mod unless you do nothing but play that mod after getting it for a full day. (Falskaar, for example, has 25 hours of gameplay).

 

So if something breaks after 24 hours, you're simply SOL. In addition, if you do ask for a refund, you will only receive it in steam funds, so Valve is getting that money one way or the other.

Edited April 30, 2015 by Zack_of_Steel

[theMileHighGuy 656]

 

What. What.

 

Where the fuck did they claim that? Dear lord.

 

Are they? Do you not think there could still be a legal case, ToS or no? Asking honestly here, I'm not sure. But if I buy a defective product and they're like, well its in the ToS, its still a defective product. I don't think ToS let you get away with that.

 

I've only seen that repeated on twitter, not an official statement. I also think one of the people from one of those reddit things may have mentioned it.

 

I do think court is a possibility. But it would take certain grounds, certain thresholds of fuckery to be met first. Enough angry people can do anything.

[Thanatos 2,847]

Victory my brothers!

 

Valve has removed paid mods and is refunding everyone. Yay!