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seanbrock

Dissonants Unite

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6 hours ago, Thanatos said:

No its not. His argument is literally "I had to pay my kids way, so everyone else should always have to as well." In other words- diverting the trolley disrespects the people its already killed, to use the metaphor. What about parents who can't pay off their kids loans? What about kids who get suckered into loans they have no business going into? What about the fact that college is pushed a ridiculous deal in this country when it shouldn't be?

Obviously I could be wrong because I don’t know the guy... but listening to him, to what he says, and the passion he says it with... I really don’t think his point is “ everyone should get fucked “. 
 

You don’t talk with that much energy and passion over wanting to fuck over more people. 
 

He’s talking about his sacrifice ... what he’s done to allow his child to go to school. He wants his sacrifices in time and money to be worth something — just like we all do. Under Warrens plan he suffers... his sacrifice means nothing... and he’s (rightly) annoyed by that. 
 

That’s just the Catch 22 of trying to fix the student loan issue. There’s gonna be a cutoff, there’s gonna be people who get double penetrated. On the contrary ... this guy is the trolley problem. Elizabeth Warren has decided to sacrifice him and many many other parents who have done the same and have already sacrificed so much to “fix” the issue for others. She’s choosing to pull the lever and kill the one to save five. (Idk what the actual percentage of kids who have parents pay for their college is so I’m just using the numbers from the basic trolley problem). 

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On 1/23/2020 at 8:20 PM, DalaiLama4Ever said:

Did you watch or read that tweet at all? lol. He isn't talking about himself. He's comparing his own situation  where he worked shit jobs and shifts and saved money to afford sending his daughter to school to that of a friend of his who made more and didn't save who would be bailed out by Warren. I think he is a lot more of a "regular person" than his friend is.

And the bubble may not have burst yet, but you are already seeing some of that. Millennials aren't buying houses is just one example.

I misread the tweet because i was on my way to work that morning lol. I think the good news is we all agree that college is far too expensive. I think it's safe to also say kids should think more about trade school and that it should ve pushed more, which is also a good thing. Here's my thing. Education is an investment in the future. It shouldn't be about fiscal responsibility. The world we live in is changing very fast righe before our eyes. We need to educate our youth so countries like China and India and Russia don't pass us by. How do we prepare for the automation Yang talks about? I think a big component of that is going to have to be education and job training?

How are we going to preserve our environment and our planet? Even if you think global warming is bullshit (lol) there is going to be a lot more people polluting as more of the world reproduces and industrializes. I trust that we all want clean water and clean air. I trust that we all want to mitigate deforrestation and stuff like that.

Of all things we need to be leading in, i would think that education would be very high on the list pretty uncontroverially. Why do we look at k-12 differently than college/tech schools? 

Also as far as the student loan bubble popping, the next economic collapse could be the straw the broke the camel's back for wwIII. What do ya'll think is going to happen when the US dollar starts to lose power to a country like say....China. My guess is nothing good.

Edited by seanbrock

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3 hours ago, seanbrock said:

 Here's my thing. Education is an investment in the future. It shouldn't be about fiscal responsibility.

Also as far as the student loan bubble popping, the next economic collapse could be the straw the broke the camel's back for wwIII. What do ya'll think is going to happen when the US dollar starts to lose power to a country like say....China. My guess is nothing good.

 

It should absolutely be about fiscal responsibility. Whose paying for it? Have they not done a cost benefit analysis of the benefits of doing it versus not? These are all things we should require adults to do. If it is not about fiscal responsibility why is it that high paying jobs are the most popular majors to go after ?

Dude, Stop. Do you really live in that much fear that you think WW3 is right around the corner? Right now 1 Yuan is worth 14 cents. It would be an unparalleled economic collapse that would be roughly 2 times worse than the great depression. If that were to occur, China is our last problem. And all that military spending liberals bitch about is why you can rest easy Sean. Given the current state of china and Russian, Those 2 combined would not be enough to win. WW3 is not happening ANYTIME soon.

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On 1/24/2020 at 6:16 AM, Omerta said:

That is not his argument. His argument is an EXTREMELY common one. The entire crux of it is why does the person who puts in work reap benefits that are equal to or less than someone who doesn’t.  

He is asking why should he not get rewarded for doing the work but someone who doesn’t will get the same benefit (paid college) for none of the work.

If parents can’t pay for the kids who are benefitting from the education the person who is benefitting from the education should. Are the kids getting suckered or being stupid? Again where are the parents to help them navigate these things? 
 

Who are you to say how much college should be pushed? Do you not have a degree you are currently using? Or do they just let guys walk into a pharmacy and hand out scripts? I wish they would push trades more, I think it is every bit as valid a career path as anything. But to say college is over pushed is kind of dumb considering the benefits it can add to your life.

 

Just as a sidenote- you don't need a college degree to work in the pharmacy. You need one to be a pharmacist, sure. I'm a technician. And yes, they will just let people walk in and count meds. I mean, there is a training program but its not hard, it's about 30 hours worth of training. It's a somewhat challenging job mentally to deal with the insurance side of things, and sometimes typing in the scripts, but counting the meds and release to patient is brain-dead. And no, I am not using my college degree for this. It probably helped me get in initially just because I had one, but my degree has nothing to do with pharmacy.

So to respond to the rest of it:

His argument is "I got fucked over by how the system was in the past. I was able to save for my daughter's college, and its not fair that under your plan, other people will not also have to."

This will ALWAYS be true. No matter if/when the system is fixed, there will be people that have paid money for their kids to go to school that it will be unfair for. The key thing here is that they were able to do it. What about the kids whose parents could not, or would not? The kids drowning in student loan debt and unable to even make payments on the principle of the loan because its such a high interest rate- this guy is arguing we should just leave them there because its not fair to him to save them. This kind of attitude is everything that is wrong with what has become of the GOP in this country. The right's attitude is always- if I was able to do it, clearly that means that everyone else could do it as well and are just too lazy to put in the work.

They see helping out others intrinsically through the lens of "Does this hurt me in any way?" Healthcare- same argument, why do my taxes pay for someone else's health problems? Of course they are fine with cops and firefighters, and other things, but I digress. The blatant hypocrisy is not the point of this post. The point is the right has little to no empathy for those worse off than themselves, at least as far as actually trying to FIX the underlying issue. In other words, they are fine helping the individual, but not solving the issue that caused the problems in the first place. We get all hyped up over a dude helping a homeless guy, for example. And that's great! But try getting the city to build the homeless houses- even if it saves money in the long run- and all of a sudden the political right is all "Why are we using welfare to help out these bums?"

As far as the pushing college thing, I mean specifically regarding students who obviously would be better off doing something else. The idea is that everyone should go, there are plenty of kids who have no desire to go to college and should be told to go after a trade. Instead, college is pushed as the end goal for basically everyone in education.

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Yeah you missed it lol. I miss the old Thanatos.

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I do too, in a way. It was so much easier to just be the same as everyone around me, (my family is hardcore GOP and hardline religious). Pretend that everyone else was against us. 

Honestly, kinda the dude's argument as well, lol. "It's not fair for us." 

Just as an aside- not just liberals that think we pay way too much into the military. My dad thinks so, and so does my best friend. Both are conservatives in every way.

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13 minutes ago, Thanatos said:

I do too, in a way. It was so much easier to just be the same as everyone around me, (my family is hardcore GOP and hardline religious). Pretend that everyone else was against us. 

Honestly, kinda the dude's argument as well, lol. "It's not fair for us." 

Just as an aside- not just liberals that think we pay way too much into the military. My dad thinks so, and so does my best friend. Both are conservatives in every way.

Its not everyone. It liberals vs conservatives. So in reality it is conservatives versus conservatives.

Youre just looking to shit on the guy and missing his point because of liberal biases. That is the old Thanatos I miss, he would have seen it, or at least attempted too. The guys argument is much broader. The argument isnt, shit on them too, or I did it so we all can. The idea behind it is that we should not be trying to legislate out poverty by killing incentives. What is the incentive for picking up that extra shift to help your kids out, when you can just let everyone else do it ? He was making her say that their will be no incentives to be had for people like him under Warren, and he is right.

And liberals are the master of everyone is against us. they are always bitching about how they have been wronged and want the government to fix it. The GOP does it too, ALMOST as good as liberals.

We do pay too much for the military, because the contracts go to people like Haliburton instead of letting the Army have its own R&D department. WE could have just as potent of a military without private citizens. The point was the military is what keeps the wolves outside the house. China and Russian know that combined they couldnt take the smoke. And its because of a military people want to downsize.

Edited by Omerta

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1 hour ago, Omerta said:

Its not everyone. It liberals vs conservatives. So in reality it is conservatives versus conservatives.

Youre just looking to shit on the guy and missing his point because of liberal biases. That is the old Thanatos I miss, he would have seen it, or at least attempted too. The guys argument is much broader. The argument isnt, shit on them too, or I did it so we all can. The idea behind it is that we should not be trying to legislate out poverty by killing incentives. What is the incentive for picking up that extra shift to help your kids out, when you can just let everyone else do it ? He was making her say that their will be no incentives to be had for people like him under Warren, and he is right.

And liberals are the master of everyone is against us. they are always bitching about how they have been wronged and want the government to fix it. The GOP does it too, ALMOST as good as liberals.

We do pay too much for the military, because the contracts go to people like Haliburton instead of letting the Army have its own R&D department. WE could have just as potent of a military without private citizens. The point was the military is what keeps the wolves outside the house. China and Russian know that combined they couldnt take the smoke. And its because of a military people want to downsize.

You're putting a lot of nuance into his words, when given his statement, there is no such nuance. Much more inclined to believe he's using the same argument the political right always does. Regardless, even if we give him the entirety of the benefit of the doubt, what he's arguing will still do exactly what I'm saying. In other words, you have no safety net here. The system is currently broken and we have a ton of students in a lot of debt that are unable to pay it because of hefty interest rates.

That man's example: Sure, maybe he doesn't pick up an extra shift because the government is paying for his daughter's education. And that either A) lets him make more doing something else or B) spend more time at home with his family. Then we compare him to another family who is unable to do anything because of loan debt. Suddenly, that is gone, and now they can try to start saving up to better themselves. And the GOP sees this as a bad thing? People are not just going to sit back and do nothing. That's simply not reality. It's why UBI is the best idea I've heard on the subject.

I suggested a compromise of removing any further interest so the students can actually pay it back. 

Liberals believe the government should create a floor for people. No one should have to watch someone they love die because they don't have health insurance. No one should have to wait to go to the doctor because they can't afford it. 

We don't need to spend that much money on the military. Half of what we currently do would be absolutely fine, moreso if we streamlined the process. That money could be going to make the people at home better off. This is a primary plank of Gabbard's platform, btw, not the half part specifically, she hasn't specified. But she wants to cut military funding. Is she a liberal as well?

Why do we care if China and Russia combined know they couldn't take it? Russia is so far behind us tech wise they accidentally dropped a bomb on an isolated region because their computers lost contact because the tech is from the late 80s. Russia is not a military threat. They had that one attempt at an attack in Iraq via their "mercenary companies totally not affiliated with Russia" and lost 3k troops while we lost zero. We don't need to be the world police. We don't need to have such a strong military that if literally everyone in the world ganged up on us we would still be able to crush them. America first, right? Why is someone with that slogan putting more and more troops into harm's way while cutting needed programs here at home? 

Edited by Thanatos

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