So now, KD>Howard?

[DonovanMcnabb for H.O.F 2,241]

-Your example is not true to life...a post player doesn't mean he is shooting. Look at Boozer when he was actually good in Utah and a better example is Zach Randolph using foot quickness and post moves as far as an up and under or being able to shift position to the rim gets you an easy lay-up or dunk. So those players aren't less efficient. Yes, Duncan was more of a shooter than some, but that isn't all an Elite talent can do. Olajuwon is the PRIME example of what a real post game looks like and he didn't have to shoot that much. Now to your point..2 points is 2 points and I couldn't agree with you more...but this debate comes up in so many sports I will take the skill over the athleticism any day of the week for one simple reason....ATHLETICISM FADES OVER TIME. Yes Howard is effective in the offense (less than he should be at this point), but still a big factor but as age comes that jumping and that speed goes away which is why Duncan is still in the league taking care of business for his age or KG because they have real skill that never leaves if you hone it every year. Until Howard gets to that point is offense is not Elite in basketball, however like I said you can say that in the sense of the current NBA he is a big factor on offense.

 

I swear you guys are so stuck on this.

 

It doesn’t matter how you get your points. As long as you do so efficiently, it doesn’t matter. Who cares if athleticism fades over time? Are we talking about Howard’s offense in 6-8 years? No we are talking about his offensive game right now.

 

And right now, he averages 20 points on 57% shooting. Last year he averaged 22 points of 59% shooting. How he gets his points is irrelevant as long as it isn’t eating up team’s overall possessions. And it isn't.

 

-To the KG statement...I already broke it down for you so what is not to get? Can Howard go out on the perimeter and guard LeBron? Melo? Kobe? KD? The answer is no if you weren't sure. On a pick and roll in which Howard has to switch on to the point guard driving or a small forward will he be able to stay in front or get a foul called on him? Foul called on him is the right answer. He is NOT as versatile as KG was in his prime. He IS a low post defender as said before but he is not a versatile defender because he won't be stepping outside of the paint to defend and if he does its not effective and leaves a hole in their defense. Even the energy level...in the beginning of the game yes he will be up and down the floor and swatting at every shot but as the game wears on Howard gets real sluggish and won't be throwing every shot he sees. KG's energy is well documented and when he was in his prime....NO STOP in this guy all night long. Now that's an intangible you can't really measure is a guy's heart so I won't lean on that argument. Now to this whole changing your offensive plan because of him? Not anymore they don't! Weaker teams maybe they have to adjust, but the good teams don't run away from Howard anymore they run right at him and yes he will get blocks, but when he starts to slouch or doesn't recover in time you can easily get him in foul trouble. The good teams and the superstars of the league will attack Howard with no fear and he will be a presence, but some nights they get his number. He will leave the game with a good amount of blocks but him having 3 or 4 blocks is fine if he has been on the bench most of the game with fouls. And him contesting shots on the perimeter and going back to get the rebound? Stop it Howard isn't doing that on a consistent bases because the Magic rarely want to see him outside of the paint.

 

Worrying about Howard fouling too much is a joke. He averaged 2.9 fouls per game playing 38 minutes a game. The average for centers is 2.4, and most centers don’t even play 30 minutes a game.

 

And I NEVER said he contested shots on the perimeter. This is what I said:

 

Howard is always near the top of the league in rebounds, blocks and rebounding rate. But if numbers aren't your game and you prefer the 'eye test', the guy can jump out on a pick-and-roll 20 feet from the hoop and recover to the rim in time to block a shot, and if not disrupt the shot and still grab the board. He does this ALL THE TIME. And this is even when the opposing offense makes perfect, quick-hitting passes, he disrupts passing lanes.

 

Completely different. Centers and big men ALWAYS are supposed to jump out to pick up pick and roll players as they head to the basket. And while most big men struggle in that department, Howard EXCELS at it.

 

And regardless of how much more versatile KG was in on ball defense. The fact of the matter still remains, that Howard impact on defense is pretty much equal. Like I said, you put Howard on your team, and surround him with average to above average wing defenders and you have yourself a top 10 defense, at worst.

 

-I'm trying to conclude this by saying I'm not dissing Howard or saying he isn't top 5 or maybe 3, just saying he isn't better than Durant. What part of Durant's game forces a team to change gameplans? Try his scoring. The name of the game is scoring points and when you have a threat as dangerous as Durant everything changes from man to zones, rotation of players to get better defenders in, changing the line up to get a better matchup against him, if you put a bigger body on him now you need someone else to take care of Ibaka, getting into foul trouble guarding him cause he gets those calls. The whole game changes when Durant's on the floor and the whole team plays up to his level of leadership so they all become dangerous. SO the point is yes Durant is the better player.

Durant is a PERIMETER SCORER. He gets the majority of his shots from the outside. NO TEAM spends more time on trying to stop a perimeter player from scoring then they do protecting the paint. It doesn’t happen. You put a elite wing defender, or a physical guy on him and you deny him the ball and he loses his effectiveness. He loses his effectiveness as a shooter, no other aspect of his game is good neough to make a difference. I GUARANTEE you that teams spend more time worrying about Westbrook and Harden driving then they do worrying about Durant.

 

The same cannot be said about Howard, only way to deny him from scoring is to deny him position in the paint, which is often close to impossible with one guy because of his strength, so you spend time and attention trying, which means he draws a lot more attention. Opening up a lot of space for his teammates even when he isn't scoring. And once he’s in position you either have to double him or foul him.

 

That comparison is for todays NBA bcuz thats exactly how it is. Player ones are everyone but Dwight, Bynum, Gasol and Alridge. Does that make him better then the rest of league now? for big men yes. But this is where u are wrong. Your ok with someone with average offense skillset, who gets by for lack of big men in the NBA, which isnt Howards fault but u cant ignore that fact. If he had a post game hed be avg'ing more then 22 i know that. Look at it from a job type of view. Dwight is a impact defender, DPOTY type defense, average offense moves. Overpowers alot, post moves limited but effective against the talent in the NBA today. Then u look at KD, for his position, he can rebound , shoot from anywhere, drive from anywhere on floor, dunk in traffic, make clutch shots. Now his D is average, his length is what he uses most. But he faces toughter players at his position then Dwight does at center position. So whos more qualified?

 

No, actually the reason why Howard doesn’t average more than 22 points per game is because he doesn’t attempt as many field goals as other big men. You really think if Howard took 18-19 shots a game like Duncan he wouldn’t put up 25-26 points a game? Really?

 

It seems the thing u guys cant see if his lack of offense moves. YES it matters. You cant ignore what he cant do. If you leave skill set out of it then why debate whos better at all? Its one of the biggest parts in debating whos better. You cant go by numbers, just cuz of schemes, different types of ways of helping a player on the stat sheet.

 

No it does not matter. As long as you are scoring, and doing so efficiently, the rest doesn’t matter. Regardless of how you get them, 2 points have been, will always be, 2 points.

 

I swear. The question isn’t, who the better SCORER is, the question is who the better PLAYER is.

[butta54 371]

The question isn't who is a better defender either. Like I said these two have two different strengths and Scoring is just more valued over defense. Durant has a solid enough defense to be considered a both way player. I'm not a fan of his defense at all, but it is ok enough. Compared to Howard's really high defensive skill and his average offensive skill.

 

You are a victim of today's NBA to think how you score is irrelevant. The point is during crunch time and against good competition (maybe more will come along who knows) That jumping really high won't be effective. You have to keep in mind that the fouls he averages and the points he averages are mostly against garbage competition. That's why he can't carry a team in the playoffs when Basketball gets tough. You want a regular season stud fine take him, but in the playoffs he can't do it alone or even by majority. His weak position group allows him to be an asset and allows him to get away without elite skill that is just the truth.

 

His level is no equal to KG. I don't understand how you just acknowledged KG had more skill in other facets of defense, but still say they are equal. And even if you meant FLASHING out on a pick and roll and not physically jumping to contest the shot...that means nothing because without the on ball defense that close to the rim it will be a block or a foul if someone is driving and I don't like his odds all night.

 

Durant is much more than a perimeter scorer. He hasn't mastered a low post offense like Melo (Neither has LeBron) but his ability to put the ball on the floor and drive and oh yeah...get way above the rim makes him more than shooting threat. Scorers can do it from anywhere on the floor...shooters just shoot. And it is not that easy to throw a defender on him and just shut him down...ask any of the teams that played him in the playoffs or maybe his scoring titles.

[DonovanMcnabb for H.O.F 2,241]

The question isn't who is a better defender either. Like I said these two have two different strengths and Scoring is just more valued over defense. Durant has a solid enough defense to be considered a both way player. I'm not a fan of his defense at all, but it is ok enough. Compared to Howard's really high defensive skill and his average offensive skill.

 

No. Kevin Durant is a one dimensional scorer. That is the only area where KD has any advantage over Howard. And the gap isn’t even a little bit as close as the gap between the two as a rebounder- both offensively and defensively and overall defense.

 

With Durant you get a guy who will be able to put up 30 points off of mostly jumpshots and great efficiency, decent rebounding, and average defense.

 

With Howard you get a guy who gives you 21 points in the paint every night with extremely high efficiency, elite rebounding both offensively and defensively, and a guy who will CARRY your defense to ELITE LEVEL.

 

Why is this close exactly?

 

You are a victim of today's NBA to think how you score is irrelevant. The point is during crunch time and against good competition (maybe more will come along who knows) That jumping really high won't be effective. You have to keep in mind that the fouls he averages and the points he averages are mostly against garbage competition. That's why he can't carry a team in the playoffs when Basketball gets tough. You want a regular season stud fine take him, but in the playoffs he can't do it alone or even by majority. His weak position group allows him to be an asset and allows him to get away without elite skill that is just the truth.

 

Oh God, here we go, it was only a matter of time before the “clutch” argument and the “regular season stud playoff dud” argument started up again. Because how many points a player scores in the last 2 3 minutes of the game tells you how great of a player he is right? And Lebron sucked while he was in Cleveland because he never won a championship.

 

Have you ever seen Shaq play?

 

Shaq was the best scorer in the early 2000s and late 1990s. Do you know how he scored so many points? He had one move, a drop step and awkward spin move towards the basket called the black hurricane (or something). Outside of that, his ENTIRE offense relied on him getting into the paint and overpowering the opposing player to the basket, his whole offense was around him getting the ball into the basket. It was literally shaq using a lot of brute strength that was sometimes borderline illegal.

 

Nobody is saying that Howard is a great post up scorer yet. But many players in the NBA have learned and developed their offense as they've spent more time int he NBA, just because he isn't some elite multi move scorer right now, doesn't mean he won't be in the future, and it doesn't matter right now if he's still scoring the ball in high efficiency in the paint.

 

You comparing past players to present is so dumb, and really irrelevant. The hell does that have to do with where he ranks TODAY? In TODAY’s league?

 

And even if Howard wouldn’t be a great scorer in the past, you think he still wouldn’t be an elite defender? He wouldn’t be an elite rebounder? Howard’s size, and athleticism would be able to produce in any period.

 

His level is no equal to KG. I don't understand how you just acknowledged KG had more skill in other facets of defense, but still say they are equal. And even if you meant FLASHING out on a pick and roll and not physically jumping to contest the shot...that means nothing because without the on ball defense that close to the rim it will be a block or a foul if someone is driving and I don't like his odds all night.

 

Jesus Christ… I really don’t understand how else to say this.

 

Dwight Howard’s IMPACT on defense is the same as KG in his prime. They aren’t the same type of defenders, they play differently and KG was always more of an on ball defender before he was a help defender, and I am NOT COMPARING THEIR SKILLSET. I am comparing their IMPACT.

 

This is bull. Dwight Howard on defense right now, healthy, is the same impact as KG in his prime. There isn't a defender who can impact the game as much as Howard.

 

Put Howard on your team, and your defense will rank in the league’s top 10. At worst. Howard IS THAT good defensively.

 

Outside of Lebron on offense, and maybe KG in his prime, who else can you say that about?

 

And if you really think he doesn’t have the same impact when healthy on a team’s defense as KG had, than you are either underrating Howard, or you are being ignorant.

 

Durant is much more than a perimeter scorer. He hasn't mastered a low post offense like Melo (Neither has LeBron) but his ability to put the ball on the floor and drive and oh yeah...get way above the rim makes him more than shooting threat. Scorers can do it from anywhere on the floor...shooters just shoot. And it is not that easy to throw a defender on him and just shut him down...ask any of the teams that played him in the playoffs or maybe his scoring titles.

 

You know what happens when you ask KD to put the ball on the floor and create shots for himself and drive? Lmao.

 

I won’t tell you. Go look at his turnovers. They’ll tell you. He is an uber average ball handler.

 

The reason why KD is able to do what he does is because he’s a shooter who relies on being able to shoot over his opponents on the perimeter. He doesn't have even close to a reliable post game, and if you start asking him to drive to the lane or to put the ball on the court like Kobe or Melo, he will give the ball up.

 

When you compare KD to other elite scorers who play any position that isn't Center or PF, you'll see that he gets assisted on more, and the gap between him and some of them is pretty big. That is no coincidence.

[butta54 371]

I didn't even read the full post because saying Durant is a one dimensional scorer was enough for me to leave this debate alone. That is just simply a false statement. You are talking about the leading scorer the last three years is one dimensional?? A guy who is scraping 7ft tall is not going to be a point guard type ball-handler, but that doesn't mean for his size he can't get around defenders? Assisted is fine because he knows how to cut to the basket and when to do it offensive awareness is part of what makes scorers great. He isn't up their with the elite scorers, but yet he is the top scorer? Makes so much sense.

 

IF you take time to actually read I said Howard's ranking today and his game today in the NBA would rank among the top. Even conceding that fact, I still maintain Durant is the superior player.

 

Shaq only had the black tornado? What about before he was under 300lbs and most of it not muscle? He balled out against Olajuwon and David Robinson and Ewing some of the best defenders down low and he still averaged almost 24 points as a rookie...using one move and his "brute strength" I highly doubt that. Shaq knew how to use is body in power and finesse.

 

The KG argument should be over it makes no sense. He can defend the paint against whoever you are playing. No one would have a problem having KG in his prime defend the rim. AND if need be he can go on the perimeter and play on ball and take out prolific scorers or slow them down. Dwight can do one of those things. I'll make this simple....2 major skills > 1 major skill. KG's impact therefore is larger just makes sense.

Edited July 6, 2012 by butta55

[DonovanMcnabb for H.O.F 2,241]

I didn't even read the full post because saying Durant is a one dimensional scorer was enough for me to leave this debate alone. That is just simply a false statement. You are talking about the leading scorer the last three years is one dimensional?? A guy who is scraping 7ft tall is not going to be a point guard type ball-handler, but that doesn't mean for his size he can't get around defenders? Assisted is fine because he knows how to cut to the basket and when to do it offensive awareness is part of what makes scorers great. He isn't up their with the elite scorers, but yet he is the top scorer? Makes so much sense.

 

By one dimensional scorer, he is nothing more then a great scorer. The term I should of used was one dimensional player, not scorer. But regardless, the fact still remains, he's a scorer who relies on jump shooting over his opponents more then anything else.

 

Yea, he can finish around the rim but he's an athletic 6'9, 6'10 7'4" wingspan guy, he should be able to finish around the basket. And yea he can drive to the lane every now and then, but for the majority of the time, it isn't his game. And when he's asked to do so, when he's asked to put the ball on the floor and take it in consistently, not only can he not finish when he is being guarded by stronger guys (unless if the refs bail him out), but he also commits a lot of turnovers because he has average handles.

 

Don't take my word for it, look at the stats. There are very few players who take more combined shots from the 10-15 ft range to the three than KD and there are no SF, and a large majority of them are jump shots.

 

IF you take time to actually read I said Howard's ranking today and his game today in the NBA would rank among the top. Even conceding that fact, I still maintain Durant is the superior player.

 

What makes Durant the superior player than? What parts of his game can you really say he has any advantage outside of scoring over Howard? I keep hearing offense offense offense.

 

well...

 

You take away Howard's scoring, and you still get an elite offensive and defensive rebounder, and an almost once in a generation defender.

 

You wake away KD's scoring and you get...?

 

Shaq only had the black tornado? What about before he was under 300lbs and most of it not muscle? He balled out against Olajuwon and David Robinson and Ewing some of the best defenders down low and he still averaged almost 24 points as a rookie...using one move and his "brute strength" I highly doubt that. Shaq knew how to use is body in power and finesse.

 

Seeing as he broke the rim on a dunk as a Magic, I'm pretty sure Shaq came into the league as a 280-290+ pound guy.

 

And of course he balled out against those guys, he was bigger and stronger then all of them. It doesn't matter who you ask they'll tell you that Shaq's game was NEVER finesse. Yea he'd come out here and there with the spin and the step, but he relied on using strength that none of those guys had ever faced. Especially to get into position to score the ball. Why do you think he was calling out Howard saying what he's doing now, Shaq was already doing in the late 90s?

 

Only till later in his career did Shaq start becoming more of a finesse player, when his style of play started getting him into more foul trouble then it did help him. It's called evolving your game, you know? Something that athletes do as they mature?

 

The KG argument should be over it makes no sense. He can defend the paint against whoever you are playing. No one would have a problem having KG in his prime defend the rim. AND if need be he can go on the perimeter and play on ball and take out prolific scorers or slow them down. Dwight can do one of those things. I'll make this simple....2 major skills > 1 major skill. KG's impact therefore is larger just makes sense.

 

Here you go again explaining KG's skill set.

 

[Milla4Prez63 678]

Scoring is just more valued over defense.

 

[56AceInDaPlace 110]

Beating a dead horse now. Its clear now Dmac basketball knowledge isnt that high but to only what he sees on the stat sheet for shots made, attempted and %. Butta imo has explained shit clearly, and Dmac is either tryna justify it to make his point right even though hes PROVEN WRONG on the fact knowledge and how u score/moves etc is important to be counted. He says it doesnt matter how u score, well it does. Your debating whos better. The knowledge and moves of a player IS accounted for in the debate unlike u. You ignore it, so ima stop debating here. No point in debating with people who dont get it. Go Lakers that is all.

[56AceInDaPlace 110]

 

Remember what they say, great defense better offense?

[Guest Phailadelphia]

I'm having trouble wrapping my head around the claims in here that KD can't or doesn't impact the game the way DHoward does. His defensive is vastly improved (he was one of the best ISO defenders in the NBA this past season), his assists are WAY up (he averaged ~5-6 in the postseason), he scored 30ppg on 50% efficiency (I'll take that over 22ppg on 55% every day) and he's the best rebounding SF not named Lebron James. He regularly takes over games ENTIRELY (remember when he was averaging 15 points in the 4th quarter alone against the Spurs in the WCF? Yeah...), he hit 3 or 4 game winners in a single postseason (that's enough game winners for a pretty great career, much less one postseason), and he gets all his points within the flow of the offense rather than chucking or forcing anything. It's kind of mind blowing that anyone thinks he doesn't impact games like DHoward. A couple of years ago (maybe even last year) that would have been true. After 2011-12 though? No way.

Edited July 6, 2012 by Phailadelphia

[Thanatos 2,847]

Beating a dead horse now. Its clear now Dmac basketball knowledge isnt that high but to only what he sees on the stat sheet for shots made, attempted and %. Butta imo has explained shit clearly, and Dmac is either tryna justify it to make his point right even though hes PROVEN WRONG on the fact knowledge and how u score/moves etc is important to be counted. He says it doesnt matter how u score, well it does. Your debating whos better. The knowledge and moves of a player IS accounted for in the debate unlike u. You ignore it, so ima stop debating here. No point in debating with people who dont get it. Go Lakers that is all.

 

I love how when people disagree with you, it's because their knowledge of a sport is worse than yours. It can't possibly be that you simply have a difference of opinion.

[56AceInDaPlace 110]

I love how when people disagree with you, it's because their knowledge of a sport is worse than yours. It can't possibly be that you simply have a difference of opinion.

 

Its not the opinion i care about. Thats i know opinions are fine and all. But when you talk on facts, and knowledge of something, u cannot IGNORE something. Dmac clearly thinks, that not having a array of moves, or doesnt matter how u score isnt coutned for in a debate like this. That is wrong on his part. That is a FACT. When u debate something u cant ignore anything. You take it all in. Hes doing it from a numbers standpoint. stat sheet standpoint, that DOES NOT tell the whole debate. YES u MUST include a players knowledge of moves, IQ ETC. Or else how else u going to debate? with numbers and shit? Thats the problem with it now adays. People only want to debate on a numbers standpoint. They leave any real sport knowledge, IQ thats in the game itself and ignore it. They debate by numbers, ignoring parts they dont know about ( ignorant ) to justify it to be right in their debate. Just like Skip. Just like ESPN. Ppl dont get the whole details anymore.

 

BTW as for my knowledge on shit. If im debating i have a BIG TIME knowledge on the sport. Have u ever seen me in a baseball thread? Hockey? Soccer? Wrestling? Nascar NOOOOOOOOOO. Never will u bcuz i know nothing on those sports. My knowledge for those sports is so low i couldnt have a normal convo with u on them. I stay out of the threads bcuz my ignorance for it will do nothing but cause fights lol. I have nothing to say on the sports nor know nothing. However if im debating on something alot, chances are i know all about it or most of it.

 

So yes i will say my knowledge of basketball is twice as much as Dmacs. Im going by how he debates, brings up, ignores stuff, that shows me his knowledge isnt that high. Is it a knock on him? sounds like it but its not really. If i state the truth in something like that and u get mad? Is that my fault? Nooo. Im not attacking him, im not threatening him. I said his knowledge isnt that good on basketball. So i wasnt going to debate anymore. Beating a dead horse. Hes going to continue to post that way and it isnt getting us anywhere. Me and Butta proved the points different ways, using all of the ways u can judge a player. If knowledge, skillset isnt determined, how do u know whos better then?

 

I play ball almost everyday, i watch highlights, i read old articles from the old NBA. Im always researching on basketball and football. Mostly basketball lately due to being basketball season. Now if he came up with VALID all around points on how Dwight is better, by all means i would applaud him and go ok i can see that then make my reply. But he didnt do that.

Edited July 6, 2012 by 56AceInDaPlace

[DonovanMcnabb for H.O.F 2,241]

I'm having trouble wrapping my head around the claims in here that KD can't or doesn't impact the game the way DHoward does. His defensive is vastly improved (he was one of the best ISO defenders in the NBA this past season), his assists are WAY up (he averaged ~5-6 in the postseason), he scored 30ppg on 50% efficiency (I'll take that over 22ppg on 55% every day) and he's the best rebounding SF not named Lebron James. He regularly takes over games ENTIRELY (remember when he was averaging 15 points in the 4th quarter alone against the Spurs in the WCF? Yeah...), he hit 3 or 4 game winners in a single postseason (that's enough game winners for a pretty great career, much less one postseason), and he gets all his points within the flow of the offense rather than chucking or forcing anything. It's kind of mind blowing that anyone thinks he doesn't impact games like DHoward. A couple of years ago (maybe even last year) that would have been true. After 2011-12 though? No way.

 

So you are vaulting Durant over Howard based on his work in one postseasn? And a couple years ago? Howard's best season was literally the year before this one, and this one would of been on pace had it not been for the distractions and injury.

 

He's a 6'9"-6'10" SF with a 7'4" wingspan he's supposed to get a lot of boards, and even though he grabs a lot of boards for a SF, it's above average at best considering his size and the fact he's on a team full of above average rebounders. He isn't an impact rebounder on either side of the glass like Howard. Not even a little bit close, even this past season/post season.

 

Even without accounting for his impact to overall defense, Howard is still 3, 4 times better than Durant as an on ball defender, Durant still let's guys easily get passed him sometimes and he's still passive as a defender. And when you add his overall impact to his team's defensive success there's no argument. He isn't on Howard level defensively. Not even a little.

 

The only area where KD is truly an impact player is scoring. That's seriously the only area where he has an edge over Howard. And even in that area, result wise, it's nowhere as far apart as the two are as rebounders and defense. KD takes a ton more shots than Howard, if Howard took 19-20 shots a game he'd probably be able to put up 27-28 points a game on still high efficiency.

 

Maybe as a passer, but with all the improvement he's made, he still turns the ball over a lot for a guy who only averages about 4 assists a game.

 

There is no way that Durant impacts the game like Howard.

[DonovanMcnabb for H.O.F 2,241]

Its not the opinion i care about. Thats i know opinions are fine and all. But when you talk on facts, and knowledge of something, u cannot IGNORE something. Dmac clearly thinks, that not having a array of moves, or doesnt matter how u score isnt coutned for in a debate like this. That is wrong on his part. That is a FACT. When u debate something u cant ignore anything. You take it all in. Hes doing it from a numbers standpoint. stat sheet standpoint, that DOES NOT tell the whole debate. YES u MUST include a players knowledge of moves, IQ ETC. Or else how else u going to debate? with numbers and shit? Thats the problem with it now adays. People only want to debate on a numbers standpoint. They leave any real sport knowledge, IQ thats in the game itself and ignore it. They debate by numbers, ignoring parts they dont know about ( ignorant ) to justify it to be right in their debate. Just like Skip. Just like ESPN. Ppl dont get the whole details anymore.

 

BTW as for my knowledge on shit. If im debating i have a BIG TIME knowledge on the sport. Have u ever seen me in a baseball thread? Hockey? Soccer? Wrestling? Nascar NOOOOOOOOOO. Never will u bcuz i know nothing on those sports. My knowledge for those sports is so low i couldnt have a normal convo with u on them. I stay out of the threads bcuz my ignorance for it will do nothing but cause fights lol. I have nothing to say on the sports nor know nothing. However if im debating on something alot, chances are i know all about it or most of it.

 

So yes i will say my knowledge of basketball is twice as much as Dmacs. Im going by how he debates, brings up, ignores stuff, that shows me his knowledge isnt that high. Is it a knock on him? sounds like it but its not really. If i state the truth in something like that and u get mad? Is that my fault? Nooo. Im not attacking him, im not threatening him. I said his knowledge isnt that good on basketball. So i wasnt going to debate anymore. Beating a dead horse. Hes going to continue to post that way and it isnt getting us anywhere. Me and Butta proved the points different ways, using all of the ways u can judge a player. If knowledge, skillset isnt determined, how do u know whos better then?

 

I play ball almost everyday, i watch highlights, i read old articles from the old NBA. Im always researching on basketball and football. Mostly basketball lately due to being basketball season. Now if he came up with VALID all around points on how Dwight is better, by all means i would applaud him and go ok i can see that then make my reply. But he didnt do that.

 

The only thing you keep talking about is how good of a scorer is. Like... WTF?

 

I had no clue that when you compare two great players, you just say player X has better scoring game then player Y so he's better.

 

You don't think I watch highlights? That I don't read articles? I am a member of two NBA forums, and I played ball on a JV team for 2 years and a varsity squad that went to the States semies, and I argue basketball with people all the time. Knowledge has nothing to do with anything in this.

[56AceInDaPlace 110]

The only thing you keep talking about is how good of a scorer is. Like... WTF?

 

I had no clue that when you compare two great players, you just say player X has better scoring game then player Y so he's better.

 

You don't think I watch highlights? That I don't read articles? I am a member of two NBA forums, and I played ball on a JV team for 2 years and a varsity squad that went to the States semies, and I argue basketball with people all the time. Knowledge has nothing to do with anything in this.

 

No thats not what i said. What i said is your overrating Dwights offensive game. His limited moves may get him 22 PPG , but to u thats ok. What im saying is even though he avgs 22 PPG due to a limited offensive game, and a lack of bigs, he can get away with being limited. His lack of moves means hes not skilled enough on offense to be beconsidered a good offensive player. IDC about the points he makes, his arensal is limited. There is a ton of moves in the post that he doesnt do. For one hes not a great ball handler so that limits part of it. Step away from the points he scores, and look on HOW he does it. Thats part of the debate, something u havent done. Your sitting here claiming that as long he keeps scoring, that makes him a good offensive player. No that doesnt mean that. Not in this kind of debate.

 

He has the spin move, and power moves. He has no drop step, pro hop, up and under, hook shot ( not consistent anyways ) fadeaway, mid range shot. So out of 8 i mentioned, only 2 hes GOOD at. Meaning if he went to those two moves hes more likely bound to score. The power works due to lack of tough bigs now. There isnt alot of strong bigs anymore. Besides the strong point, there isnt any SKILLED BIGs, defensive and offensive anymore. You have centers who can get boards and play D. But no one really whos good on BOTH. Dwight looks better then the rest of the centers bcuz there isnt any skilled bigs.

 

When i play in real life, if someone in the post on my team is destroying his defender bcuz hes smaller, that doesnt mean hes good to me. Its an advantage, has nothing to do with skill. Now if someone as big and strong plays on him, and takes away the easiness of just lowering a shoulder and going up, how is he going to beat this defender? Say he doesnt have any moves, it would PROVE that he was just good due to a advantage - size and strength. Thats what im saying about Howard. For his offense anyways.

 

Defense compared to prime KG, Kg is better. But right now Dwights presence is for the paint. He clears the paint out. Makes it tough to go inside. KG though, as butta said ( only for the sake of the argument he laid out KG vs Dwight defensively ) KG would shut down ANYONE. Anywhere on the court. He could guard a durant, a Wade, a Kobe, on the perimeter. Dwight CANT do that. Thats where butta is getting at. KG could guard anyone on the court anywhere. Dwight cant play man to man vs Kobe. Kobe would blow right by him. If u tell me thats not true, then i think your believing a lie too much to be honest.

 

Offensively KD is a 10, on D hes a 6.

 

Offense for Dwight is a 5

D is a 9

 

If i had to put points into my point to show why i think KD is better.

 

Forget the shots taken for a second. Forget %, its a bad stat to use between the two, Dwight is a center, hes 10 feet from the basket. OF COURSE a center % is going to be higher. Nene was leading that % years ago. Is he a all star? No. KD can shoot anywhere on the floor, drive, score in traffic. KD is unstoppable on offense. His D isnt like a Bruce Bowen, but he can play SOLID. That SOLId on defense is better then Dwights AVERAGE offense. Dwights D isnt a 10 due to he cant guard beyond the paint effectively, ( like KG could ) but still gets a 9 due to his impact in the post/paint. So while KDs offense washes Dwights D, KDs GOOD defense is better then Dwights average offense. Get that now? Anyways this is literally my last post in here. I say your knowledge of basketball isnt deep bcuz of how u compare and contrast players. You debate how u want it to be deabted and now how it should be. You leaving out something isnt something someone with knowledge of the game would do.

 

Knowledge, Iq , consistency, impact, offensively, defensively, numbers, should ALL be used. Not just the numbers and offense and defense. Have to look at his competition too, lack of bigs, all that. When u leave something like that out, you get a false truth. Or a bad opinion of a player. Which is definitely a big reason why its so hard to debate sports nowadays. So many bad opinions. If people would actually get in depth with it it would be a better understanding of the sport/player debates.

 

BTW i asked around yesterday at the gym to ballers i normally play with. Out of 8 of them 7 said KD was EASILY better due to his scoring ability. KDs scoring ability is more versitile then Dwight is on Defense. And KDs defense is better then Dwights lack of offense moves/post game. Same statement i made so.

Edited July 6, 2012 by 56AceInDaPlace

[56AceInDaPlace 110]

 

He's a 6'9"-6'10" SF with a 7'4" wingspan he's supposed to get a lot of boards,

 

 

Ok u can say hes suppose to but he DOES. Theres alot of players u can say hes "supposed" to do but doesnt. Theres a reason why Kd is one of the best.

Edited July 6, 2012 by 56AceInDaPlace

[DonovanMcnabb for H.O.F 2,241]

No thats not what i said. What i said is your overrating Dwights offensive game. His limited moves may get him 22 PPG , but to u thats ok. What im saying is even though he avgs 22 PPG due to a limited offensive game, and a lack of bigs, he can get away with being limited. His lack of moves means hes not skilled enough on offense to be beconsidered a good offensive player. IDC about the points he makes, his arensal is limited. There is a ton of moves in the post that he doesnt do. For one hes not a great ball handler so that limits part of it. Step away from the points he scores, and look on HOW he does it. Thats part of the debate, something u havent done. Your sitting here claiming that as long he keeps scoring, that makes him a good offensive player. No that doesnt mean that. Not in this kind of debate.

 

He has the spin move, and power moves. He has no drop step, pro hop, up and under, hook shot ( not consistent anyways ) fadeaway, mid range shot. So out of 8 i mentioned, only 2 hes GOOD at. Meaning if he went to those two moves hes more likely bound to score. The power works due to lack of tough bigs now. There isnt alot of strong bigs anymore. Besides the strong point, there isnt any SKILLED BIGs, defensive and offensive anymore. You have centers who can get boards and play D. But no one really whos good on BOTH. Dwight looks better then the rest of the centers bcuz there isnt any skilled bigs.

 

The guy averages 21 points on 55%+ shooting. Who cares how he scores his points? If a guy can give you 21-22 points a game in the PAINT efficiently, he is still having a huge impact, because the threat of him scoring opens up the entire offense for his teammates.

 

The only reason Howard doesn’t score even more points is because he doesn’t take more shots. He had one game last year where he took 20 shots, and he finished that game with 45 points.

 

And you guys keep putting way too stock on the competition. How much better defensive competition does KD face then Howard? Its bull, and it’s a cop out.

 

When i play in real life, if someone in the post on my team is destroying his defender bcuz hes smaller, that doesnt mean hes good to me. Its an advantage, has nothing to do with skill. Now if someone as big and strong plays on him, and takes away the easiness of just lowering a shoulder and going up, how is he going to beat this defender? Say he doesnt have any moves, it would PROVE that he was just good due to a advantage - size and strength. Thats what im saying about Howard. For his offense anyways.

 

Defense compared to prime KG, Kg is better. But right now Dwights presence is for the paint. He clears the paint out. Makes it tough to go inside. KG though, as butta said ( only for the sake of the argument he laid out KG vs Dwight defensively ) KG would shut down ANYONE. Anywhere on the court. He could guard a durant, a Wade, a Kobe, on the perimeter. Dwight CANT do that. Thats where butta is getting at. KG could guard anyone on the court anywhere. Dwight cant play man to man vs Kobe. Kobe would blow right by him. If u tell me thats not true, then i think your believing a lie too much to be honest.

 

Offensively KD is a 10, on D hes a 6.

 

Offense for Dwight is a 5

D is a 9

 

If i had to put points into my point to show why i think KD is better.

 

Forget the shots taken for a second. Forget %, its a bad stat to use between the two, Dwight is a center, hes 10 feet from the basket. OF COURSE a center % is going to be higher. Nene was leading that % years ago. Is he a all star? No. KD can shoot anywhere on the floor, drive, score in traffic. KD is unstoppable on offense. His D isnt like a Bruce Bowen, but he can play SOLID. That SOLId on defense is better then Dwights AVERAGE offense. Dwights D isnt a 10 due to he cant guard beyond the paint effectively, ( like KG could ) but still gets a 9 due to his impact in the post/paint. So while KDs offense washes Dwights D, KDs GOOD defense is better then Dwights average offense. Get that now? Anyways this is literally my last post in here. I say your knowledge of basketball isnt deep bcuz of how u compare and contrast players. You debate how u want it to be deabted and now how it should be. You leaving out something isnt something someone with knowledge of the game would do.

 

1. I really don’t see what the point of the Nene reference, it has to do with anything. Nene has never averaged even 15 points his whole career. He doesn’t take all that many attempts and he can’t control the paint like Howard. Howard is a way bigger threat then Nene has ever been offensively. You keep saying his offense is average but 21+ points on efficient shooting when teams KNOW what he’s going to do is not average.

 

2. And how the fuck is it that Dwight’s D isn’t a 10? Like really? Just the fact that you can put Dwight on your defense and he completely CARIES your team's defense regardless of how good the perimeter defenders are around him makes his defense a 10. Stop comparing the two defensive skill sets (KD vs. Howard), they played different defensive games but they impact that side of the ball the same way. That’s all that matters. Howard has shown that he can guard forwards and centers man to man extremely well consistent, and still grab double digit boards. KD hasn’t, and as a matter of fact, KD even struggles against smaller wing players occasionally. He was even guarding Chalmers in one of the 4th quarters during the finals, can you guess what game that was?

 

KD’s SOLID defense is nowhere NEAR Howard’s GREAT defense. Nowhere near. One guy is a perimeter defender, the other controls the rim, and passing lanes almost everywhere inside of 23’while accounting for the post player he's defending.

 

And speaking of offense, being a great SCORER =/= being a great OFFENSIVE PLAYER. It just means you’re a great scorer. He still has average handles, average vision/passing, and he is a below average offensive rebounder (At 6’10 with 7’4” wing span mind you). LMAO at KD’s offense being a 10. Like I don’t even know what to say to that, LBJ’s offense is a 10, CP3 offense is maybe a 10, no way in hell KD’s offense is a 10.

 

Knowledge, Iq , consistency, impact, offensively, defensively, numbers, should ALL be used. Not just the numbers and offense and defense. Have to look at his competition too, lack of bigs, all that. When u leave something like that out, you get a false truth. Or a bad opinion of a player. Which is definitely a big reason why its so hard to debate sports nowadays. So many bad opinions. If people would actually get in depth with it it would be a better understanding of the sport/player debates.

 

Once again, KD’s OFFENSE is not great. His scoring is, but his OFFENSE isn’t.

 

Ok u can say hes suppose to but he DOES. Theres alot of players u can say hes "supposed" to do but doesnt. Theres a reason why Kd is one of the best.

 

But we aren't talking about any of those other guys, we are talking about Durant. And no, he is not one of the best rebounders in the NBA. Not even remotely close. Even at his own position, a lot of his 7-8 rebounds a game has more to do with the fact that there are no great defensive rebounders on that team and he plays so many minutes. When you compare his rate of total reboudning to other small forwards, he doesn't reach top 5.

Edited July 6, 2012 by DonovanMcnabb for H.O.F

[butta54 371]

No. Kevin Durant is a one dimensional scorer. That is the only area where KD has any advantage over Howard.

 

[butta54 371]

 

Got a problem with my statement? Want to deny that fact? Please tell me who is getting paid the money, tell me who is leading the teams, and tell me what is the name of the game?

 

DEFENSE?

 

SCORING POINTS?

[DonovanMcnabb for H.O.F 2,241]

 

By one dimensional scorer, he is nothing more then a great scorer. The term I should of used was one dimensional player, not scorer. But regardless, the fact still remains, he's a scorer who relies on jump shooting over his opponents more then anything else.

 

Got a problem with my statement? Want to deny that fact? Please tell me who is getting paid the money, tell me who is leading the teams, and tell me what is the name of the game?

 

DEFENSE?

 

SCORING POINTS?

 

- The Chicago Bulls finished with the best record in the NBA. #1 scoring defense.

- The Celtics had the #2 scoring defense in the NBA. Made it to conference finals.

- The Miami Heat had the #4 scoring defense in the NBA. Just won the tittle.

 

Just this year, 8 of the top 10 defensive teams in the NBA made it to the playoffs.

Conversely, 5 of the top 10 offenses made the playoffs.

 

You know which position in the NBA gets overpaid the most? Centers. And most of them have a very limited offensive game, see Tyson Chandler, Asik (Roy Hibbert is about to join him). You know why he got overpaid? Because they rebound and are rim protectors, and can play great defense (in Tyson Chandler case).

 

Scoring may be the name of the game, but if your team can hold the apposing team to a low score, you have to score less yourself. Why do you think Boston has been so good with KG? Orlando with Howard?

Edited July 7, 2012 by DonovanMcnabb for H.O.F

[Guest Phailadelphia]

No. Kevin Durant is a one dimensional scorer.

 

[DonovanMcnabb for H.O.F 2,241]

 

 

 

The term I should of used was one dimensional player, not scorer. But regardless, the fact still remains, he's a scorer who relies on jump shooting over his opponents more then anything else.

 

It doesn't hurt to read yo...

Edited July 7, 2012 by DonovanMcnabb for H.O.F

[butta54 371]

Lol I love how you bring up SCORING defense. Defense that leads to what? SCORING

 

Lol I love how you bring up OVERPAID players meaning they are getting paid more than their talent should ask for. When the point was that players that get paid the BIG MONEY and DESERVE it are scorers. You are right centers are overpaid and people like Lou Williams and Sessions will make big money for their one simple skill and it won't be OVERPAID it will be deserving.

 

And to your point you can hold your opponent to 10 points in a game and if you only score 9 points...you lose the game. Bringing up team's with good defenses and better scorers doesn't help your case.

 

And either way you describe Durant is WRONG so I don't care how you word it. A Jump Shooter...is a Jump Shooter. So you can't be a scorer who only has jump shots. A SCORER means he scorers from all over the floor period. Your assessment of his offensive skills is wrong and just silly.

[Milla4Prez63 678]

I guarantee you won't find a single professional head coach (except Mike D'Antoni) that would take a great offensive team over a great defensive team.

 

Great defenses win championships in the NBA. Those Suns teams in the mid 2000s were exciting as hell to watch but their defense always did them in come playoff time.

[butta54 371]

I guarantee you won't find a single professional head coach (except Mike D'Antoni) that would take a great offensive team over a great defensive team. Great defenses win championships in the NBA. Those Suns teams in the mid 2000s were exciting as hell to watch but their defense always did them in come playoff time.

 

Yeah too bad we are looking at the value of a player and not the team as a whole.

 

I'm Chicago through and through so trust me I know all about defensive teams and the effect they have. We are talking about one player who will make the bigger impact as an individual so it is an Elite scorer like Durant.

[BwareDWare94 723]

How exactly are offense and scoring not he same thing when you drop 30 in every game? It's not like we're talking about JR Smith here. We're talking about Kevin Durant. EVERY PART OF HIS GAME IS GREAT.

 

KD over Howard is factual, not an opinion. Dwight Howard always has the potential to hurt his team with his poor free throw shooting and mediocre post game, not to mention his flaming temper that always has him in the league lead with technical fouls.

 

DMac, stop trolling.