Top 10 CB's list

[Dutch 874]

1. Richard Sherman, I've never seen someone dominate in both man AND zone the way he does. Now shut your mouth and play football.

 

2. Darrelle Revis, Still one of the best cover men in the game until proven otherwise.

 

So 2012 Richard Sherman was a better corner than Revis pre-injury?

[KempBolt 498]

So 2012 Richard Sherman was a better corner than Revis pre-injury?

 

I would argue that, because of Sherman's dominance in both man and zone, he was better in 2012 than Revis was pre-injury. Yes.

[Dutch 874]

I would argue that, because of Sherman's dominance in both man and zone, he was better in 2012 than Revis was pre-injury. Yes.

 

Sherman is primarily a zone corner over a man corner. The Seahawks typically play a Cover 3. They don't play a whole lot of man. People may get the impression that they play man coverage a lot because of the bump and run, but they generally play a Press Cover 3 scheme. So generally, Sherman gets help over top which is usually Earl Thomas. Revis had no help over the top and is left on an island against some of the best athletes in the world. Revis shuts them down and basically makes it a 10 vs 10 game. That creates so much flexibility for a defense. Not to mention he lines up everywhere from the left to right side and including the slot. Revis taking away teams #1 receiver and the flexibility he gives a teams defense undoubtedly makes him the most impactful cornerback in the game. His impact on a game is undeniable and no other corner comes close in that regard. Richard Sherman isn't even the most impactful player in the Seahawks secondary. It's Earl Thomas who holds that Cover 3 together and bares the most responsibility. People like to bring up Richard Shermans interceptions; 3 of them were against the Cardinals QB(s), 2 Rams (Braford) and 1 Mark Sanchez.

 

With all that said, Sherman is a great corner. He's arguably a top 5 corner (#2 in my book). But he just doesn't touch Revis in my opinion. Both corners are utilized differently and I don't knock players for how they are used. They are both extremely successful at what they do but impact is something entirely different. Like I said in a previous post, Ray Lewis said it best. "Success is one thing. Impact is another." No corner changes a game like Darrelle Revis. You want to avoid Sherman, don't throw on the right side. You want to avoid Revis, don't throw to your #1 receiver (lol). Not to mention you could double the #1 receiver and have Revis cover the 2nd receiving option (flexibility). Offensive coordinators are probably more afraid of Revis than Sherman.

 

Extra: Also, people get the perception that Revis is only good at man coverage. The Jets had him in man significantly more than zone, but Revis is excellent at zone coverage as well. I've seen him make some great plays in zone coverage.

Edited June 18, 2013 by dutchff7

[KempBolt 498]

Sherman is primarily a zone corner over a man corner. The Seahawks typically play a Cover 3. They don't play a whole lot of man. People may get the impression that they play man coverage a lot because of the bump and run, but they generally play a Press Cover 3 scheme. So generally, Sherman gets help over top which is usually Earl Thomas. Revis had no help over the top and is left on an island against some of the best athletes in the world. Revis shuts them down and basically makes it a 10 vs 10 game. That creates so much flexibility for a defense. Not to mention he lines up everywhere from the left to right side and including the slot. Revis taking away teams #1 receiver and the flexibility he gives a teams defense undoubtedly makes him the most impactful cornerback in the game. His impact on a game is undeniable and no other corner comes close in that regard. Richard Sherman isn't even the most impactful player in the Seahawks secondary. It's Earl Thomas who holds that Cover 3 together and bares the most responsibility. People like to bring up Richard Shermans interceptions; 3 of them were against the Cardinals QB(s), 2 Rams (Braford) and 1 Mark Sanchez.

 

With all that said, Sherman is a great corner. He's arguably a top 5 corner (#2 in my book). But he just doesn't touch Revis in my opinion. Both corners are utilized different and I don't knock players for how they are used. They are both extremely successful at what they do but impact is something entirely different. Like I said in a previous post, Ray Lewis said it best. "Success is one thing. Impact is another." No corner changes a game like Darrelle Revis. You want to avoid Sherman, don't throw on the right side. You want to avoid Revis, don't throw to your #1 receiver (lol). Not to mention you could double the #1 receiver and have Revis cover the 2nd receiving option (flexibility). Offensive coordinators are probably more afraid of Revis than Sherman.

 

Extra: Also, people get the perception that Revis is only good at man coverage. The Jets had him in man significantly more than zone, but Revis is excellent at zone coverage as well. I've seen him make some great plays in zone coverage.

 

By that same token, I think that Sherman is excellent in man coverage even though he's normally in zone as you mention. I also find his ability to play that press zone technique incredibly impressive. One of the most difficult approaches to coverage in the game today and he does it better than anyone.

 

And I'm not goint to hold Earl Thomas against him (who is most certainly not the best DB in that secondary). It's not as though ET bails him out all the time. And his excellent play shouldn't be downgraded simply because he has a superb teammate.

 

And finally, and this is the big one, I didn't think that Revis was playing his best football before he got hurt. We remember Revis Island, but as I recall that wasn't the Revis that was on the field last. Not to say he was playing poorly, but he had come back down to earth.

[Dutch 874]

By that same token, I think that Sherman is excellent in man coverage even though he's normally in zone as you mention. I also find his ability to play that press zone technique incredibly impressive. One of the most difficult approaches to coverage in the game today and he does it better than anyone.

 

Press coverage zone coverage with help over top is more impressive than lining up 1 vs 1 in man coverage against top flight elite WRs with no safeties over top? The cover 3 is built to prevent the long ball due to the help over top. A corner in a cover 3 main assignment is not to let the receiver get behind them (while having a FS help over top) in that one zone. If you have a good safety (Earl Thomas) that can run side line to side line in coverage, then it makes it even more effective. Corners in a Cover 3 are susceptible to comeback routes and if they bite on the double move. But the key is just to not let the WR get behind you; stay on top of the receiver in that single zone. Sherman is good at both of those but you can't compare a Cover 3 corners responsibility (designed with help over top) to a 1 on 1 man coverage corner responsibility (with no help over top) chasing WR's all over the field instead of staying put on one side of the field. Not to mention playing nickel back is extremely difficult trying to cover those receivers in all that space not having the sideline to help you (especially against those quick and small shifty receivers). If you put most outside corners and throw them inside at nickel back, they get exposed. Not saying Sherman can't do that, but we know Revis can. Versatility in a player is valuable. I'll take the more proven commodity.

 

And I'm not goint to hold Earl Thomas against him (who is most certainly not the best DB in that secondary). It's not as though ET bails him out all the time. And his excellent play shouldn't be downgraded simply because he has a superb teammate.

 

Earl Thomas is the most valuable player in the Seahawks secondary. He's the glue to that cover 3 and is last line of defense covering side line to sideline supporting both corners. Having a superb safety over top undoubtedly makes the corners job easier. That's not taking away from Sherman's shine or anything but I was merely pointing out that Revis doesn't have that insurance over top which makes him more susceptible. You mentioned that Earl Thomas doesn't have to bail him out all the time but what about the times QBs couldn't throw his way simply because Earl Thomas was over top.

 

And finally, and this is the big one, I didn't think that Revis was playing his best football before he got hurt. We remember Revis Island, but as I recall that wasn't the Revis that was on the field last. Not to say he was playing poorly, but he had come back down to earth.

 

Let's put this into a different perspective and more into relative terms. Richard Sherman is in a cover 3 system that is designed to stop the deep ball with a safety over top. It so happens that the Seahawks have a great safety and a great corner working hand in hand. Darrelle Revis is in his own 1 vs 1 man system with no help over top and the production speaks for itself.

 

Darrelle Revis 2011 Season: He was targeted 85 times, allowed 35 receptions, 508 yards, allowed 1 TD, had 4 interceptions and 16 passes defended. QB's had a 41.2% success rate against him; on an island.

 

Richard Sherman 2012 Season: He was targeted 87 times, allowed 41 receptions, 632 yards, allowed 2 TDs, had 8 interceptions and 15 passes defended. QB's had a 47.1% success rate against him; with a safety over top.

 

Pretty similar numbers. Sherman has more interceptions (I commented on that already) but I'd still give the edge to Revis considering the circumstances. I honestly don't see how having a safety over top doesn't play a factor at all comparing against someone who is usually on an island.

 

As far as Revis being brought down to Earth, I still think he's on another planet. People are comparing Revis to his Super Elite (probably anomaly) 2009 season where he was targeted 111 times, 31 pass defends, allowed only 40 catches, 2 Tds, 6 interceptions, 36.9% completion rate and a 32.3 passer rating. He was on a completely different stratosphere and probably one of the best corner performances ever especially considering the WR's talent he had to guard 1 vs 1. Now with that being said, Revis being brought down to Earth is still a slight overstatement to me because no one on Earth can do what he does lol. He was still producing at an elite level the last time he touched the field so I would still say he's on another planet.

 

Sherman has had one very good year and one elite year. That doesn't equate to Darrelle Revis status yet to me. Sherman's 2012 year is comparable to Revis's 2011 season but Sherman needs to have more than 1 elite season to compare against the best; unless he totally decimated Revis and that wasn't the case. The door is wide open this season but as if right now, Revis is still the best in my opinion.

[Dutch 874]

I don't want to put too much emphasis on Sherman having Earl Thomas helping over top because it would be naive for me to say Earl Thomas was always in a position to help Sherman. But having a good safety over top of a corner in a cover 3 scheme gives the corner a pretty good cushion.

[KempBolt 498]

I don't want to put too much emphasis on Sherman having Earl Thomas helping over top because it would be naive for me to say Earl Thomas was always in a position to help Sherman. But having a good safety over top of a corner in a cover 3 scheme gives the corner a pretty good cushion.

 

That's true. But what I was trying to get at is that while a good FS gives the coaches flexibility in what they ask their corners to do, that doesn't necessarily mean they're making life really easy on their teammates. Sherman is asked to play a certain way by his coaches because they know that Thomas can be that last line of defense- but he still plays in that capacity nearly flawlessly. And I've just never seen someone so adept at being in press at the snap and transitioning into zone so seamlessly. Is Revis' role as a guy who tracks #1 receivers all over the field more difficult? Probably, but I don't think the margin is very wide. Not many guys can do what Sherman does.

 

And while INT's can be fluky and aren't the end-all, I do think a little edge needs to be granted to Sherman in that department. Without being targeted much more often he created a lot of turnovers for his team.

 

If we're talking about career to date, it's Revis with no question in my mind. His 2009 season was insane. But if we're holding 2012 Sherman beside 2011 Revis, it's really close- too close to call definitively. So at that point I just have to consider that Revis looked a little worse in the two games he played last season and make a determination about who I think will be better in 2013. It's not much to go on, but it's all I really have in making a close call that could really go either way.

[Attyla the Hawk 197]

I firmly believe that this year, Sherman puts this debate to bed.

 

Sherman has played in 26 games, essentially a season and a half. His ascension has been meteoric. His skill set continues to improve dramatically. Oddly, for a player as brash as he is, he is a tireless worker and has an incredibly strong ability to apply lessons learned.

 

One good example of this, was a sack against the NY Jets at home last season. Sherman blitzed Sanchez and was on him by the time he hit his last step on his drop. Asked afterwards about it, Carroll admitted asking him, "Who told you to blitz?" To which Sherman replied, "You did, the second day of training camp when we saw that look and TE motion from that coverage." Even DC Bradley had to just shake his head at that one. All of the coaches missed that one.

 

Barely 16 games into his career, and you could tangibly see him make the leap to where he knew beforehand where he could cheat on coverage and situationally break his coverage to bait QBs into turnovers. Even the likes of Tom Brady. I know of 3 of his picks, that were on receivers that weren't even his responsibility. He gets picks from other CB's targets.

 

Sherman has the mental savvy to continue to improve by leaps and bounds. Physically, he's still improving. This year, I predict he'll be the unquestioned elite corner in this league. Sherman is tactically brilliant. And that doesn't come and go.

 

He's going to be considerably better this season.

[DonovanMcnabb for H.O.F 2,241]

I read from multiple sources that the Hawks are gonna be playing a lot more man this year. He's pretty great at both, but I'd prefer Sherman in more zone then man where he can be more aggressive.

[Dutch 874]

That's true. But what I was trying to get at is that while a good FS gives the coaches flexibility in what they ask their corners to do, that doesn't necessarily mean they're making life really easy on their teammates. Sherman is asked to play a certain way by his coaches because they know that Thomas can be that last line of defense- but he still plays in that capacity nearly flawlessly. And I've just never seen someone so adept at being in press at the snap and transitioning into zone so seamlessly. Is Revis' role as a guy who tracks #1 receivers all over the field more difficult? Probably, but I don't think the margin is very wide. Not many guys can do what Sherman does.

 

What Revis is asked to do is more difficult than Sherman's without a doubt. In their Cover 3 Press zone scheme, he presses his receiver and bails out staying over top the receiver; in that one zone. How can that compare to having to chasing WRs all over the field and not always having the sideline to assist him all the time. Also defending in the slot can't be underrated here because that's one of the more difficult assignments covering WRs in all that space.

 

Like I said, I don't want to over emphasize that Sherman has a safety over top. But I'm not going to undervalue the fact that he has an all pro safety over top and say he doesn't take pressure off his corners. That's the free safeties job in a cover 3 lol.

 

 

And while INT's can be fluky and aren't the end-all, I do think a little edge needs to be granted to Sherman in that department. Without being targeted much more often he created a lot of turnovers for his team.

 

Yeah, interceptions can be fluky at times. Three of those interceptions came from guys that shouldn't be in the league (Cardinals QBs); 4 if you want to squeeze in Mark Sanchez. But you can't knock Sherman for making a play where a play could be made.

 

If we're talking about career to date, it's Revis with no question in my mind. His 2009 season was insane. But if we're holding 2012 Sherman beside 2011 Revis, it's really close- too close to call definitively. So at that point I just have to consider that Revis looked a little worse in the two games he played last season and make a determination about who I think will be better in 2013. It's not much to go on, but it's all I really have in making a close call that could really go either way.

 

What in those two games last season made Revis look worse? But I do agree, Sherman's 2012 season stacked up against Revis's 2011 season is relatively close like you mentioned. So my question to you is, how can a player who put together one elite season that is comparable to a vet's elite season who put together several elite seasons be proclaimed as the better player? Consistency counts for nothing? You can have one elite season that is comparable to another elite player season and be better? So based off your logic and hypothetically speaking, if Doug Martin (who had a relatively good year this past season) has a comparable elite season to Adrian Peterson or better yet, a slightly better season than Adrian Peterson next year, Martin would be the better running back?

Edited June 19, 2013 by dutchff7

[KempBolt 498]

What in those two games last season made Revis look worse? But I do agree, Sherman's 2012 season stacked up against Revis's 2011 season is relatively close like you mentioned. So my question to you is, how can a player who put together one elite season that is comparable to a vet's elite season who put together several elite seasons be proclaimed as the better player? Consistency counts for nothing? You can have one elite season that is comparable to another elite player season and be better? So based off your logic and hypothetically speaking, if Doug Martin (who had a relatively good year this past season) has a comparable elite season to Adrian Peterson or better yet, a slightly better season than Adrian Peterson next year, Martin would be the better running back?

 

I'm not going to be really bullish on it because it was an impression I got from watching the games, which was obviously about 9 months ago. But I recall him looking a little less dominant than he had in the past. Looking at the box scores of those games, Stevie Johnson had 4 catches, 55 yds, and a TD while Mike Wallace had 5 catches, 74 yards, and a TD. I believe those were the two guys that Revis trailed those days, but I could be wrong. Not trying to say that he was coming undone, just that it gave me the impression that we were in for a less than Revis-Island type season.

 

And like I said, if we're ranking these guys based on their careers to date, Revis is #1 with a bullet. But I set out to predict who I think the best cornerbacks will be in 2013. And based on very comparable seasons between Sherman's 2012 and Revis' 2011, and some slight concerns for Revis from the beginning of 2012, and the fact that he's coming off an injury, I'm better that Sherman will be better this year. One also has to think that Sherman is still ascending at this point in his career, while Revis' best football is probably behind him.

[Milla4Prez63 678]

When you think about it, Revis' career interceptions numbers are lower because he never got the chance to play against Mark Sanchez.

[Dutch 874]

I'm not going to be really bullish on it because it was an impression I got from watching the games, which was obviously about 9 months ago. But I recall him looking a little less dominant than he had in the past. Looking at the box scores of those games, Stevie Johnson had 4 catches, 55 yds, and a TD while Mike Wallace had 5 catches, 74 yards, and a TD. I believe those were the two guys that Revis trailed those days, but I could be wrong. Not trying to say that he was coming undone, just that it gave me the impression that we were in for a less than Revis-Island type season.

 

And like I said, if we're ranking these guys based on their careers to date, Revis is #1 with a bullet. But I set out to predict who I think the best cornerbacks will be in 2013. And based on very comparable seasons between Sherman's 2012 and Revis' 2011, and some slight concerns for Revis from the beginning of 2012, and the fact that he's coming off an injury, I'm better that Sherman will be better this year. One also has to think that Sherman is still ascending at this point in his career, while Revis' best football is probably behind him.

 

Ah okay. I had asked if 2012 Sherman was better than Revis pre-injury. As for a projection for next year, yeah, it's wide open.

[True Blue 16]

How much are you guys paying Rice right now? I'll tell you this much, you didn't pay him to put up 484 yards in 2011 and 748 yards in 2012 lol. As for Harvin, you guys gave up a 1st rounder, a 3rd rounder next year, and a 7th rounder. Considering he's never put up 1000 yards in a season, I don't know how you can act like you stole him, especially considering alot of analysts weren't even sure if the Vikings could get a 1st round pick for him. You gave us one and more. And as for Winfield, congrats, he's a very good football player, but don't act like the Vikings are dumb and don't know talent. Just remember the Vikings offered him more guaranteed money than the Seahawks did. Oh and lastly, thanks for taking Tarvaris Jackson off our backs. His play was sinking the team and we needed someone to take the bait. Thanks.

 

Rice is definitely being overpaid in relation to his production, but he is a clutch receiver who consistently makes freak catches. I'm sure his salary will be addressed after the season with Sherman and Thomas coming up for extensions. I love how people always used the 1000 yards receiving benchmark to downplay Harvin's value. Clearly he's not the prototypical WR. His value is in his explosiveness and multiplicity... dude averages over 6 ypc running the ball, and has 5 KOR TDs in 4 years. He'd probably have even more if he wasn't used as sparingly the last two years. Oh, and lastly, you're welcome about TJack. His career numbers are very similar to Ponder's, except TJack is our backup now, not our starter. Joke's on you!

[True Blue 16]

And like I said, if we're ranking these guys based on their careers to date, Revis is #1 with a bullet. But I set out to predict who I think the best cornerbacks will be in 2013. And based on very comparable seasons between Sherman's 2012 and Revis' 2011, and some slight concerns for Revis from the beginning of 2012, and the fact that he's coming off an injury, I'm better that Sherman will be better this year. One also has to think that Sherman is still ascending at this point in his career, while Revis' best football is probably behind him.

 

Totally agree. Interesting to note, Revis exploded and had his best season in year three. The way Sherman has been progressing, he could very well do the same. All media accounts from the OTAs and minicamp have said they hadn't seen Sherman get beat once.

[True Blue 16]

What Revis is asked to do is more difficult than Sherman's without a doubt. In their Cover 3 Press zone scheme, he presses his receiver and bails out staying over top the receiver; in that one zone. How can that compare to having to chasing WRs all over the field and not always having the sideline to assist him all the time. Also defending in the slot can't be underrated here because that's one of the more difficult assignments covering WRs in all that space.

 

Like I said, I don't want to over emphasize that Sherman has a safety over top. But I'm not going to undervalue the fact that he has an all pro safety over top and say he doesn't take pressure off his corners. That's the free safeties job in a cover 3 lol.

 

You should check this article out. Breaks down both Sherman in Revis on all man coverage snaps by shut downs, in position, and busted coverages.

 

http://presnapreads.com/2013/05/16/richard-sherman-the-numbers-the-tape-the-verdict/

[KempBolt 498]

Ah okay. I had asked if 2012 Sherman was better than Revis pre-injury. As for a projection for next year, yeah, it's wide open.

 

Which I do personally if we're talking 2012 RS vs 2011 DR, but I'm not going to fault anyone for going the other way because it's just that close.

[Dutch 874]

You should check this article out. Breaks down both Sherman in Revis on all man coverage snaps by shut downs, in position, and busted coverages.

 

http://presnapreads.com/2013/05/16/richard-sherman-the-numbers-the-tape-the-verdict/

 

I have already. It's a thread in the NFC West forum. Also, as far as the qualifying and non-qualifying plays, those are hypotheticals that are based off his judgement. That's including plays where the ball didn't get thrown to their side and the receiver may have appeared open but completely factoring out if the cornerback possibly recovered to make a play on the ball. I'm not so much for blind faith. I'd have to see it myself. Targets and receptions is a more reliable quantifiable stat and is a better indicator of success rather than what could have possibly happened or not.

 

 

But this was my main stance and it's a huge one that can't be downplayed.

 

It must be noted that Revis trailed the opposition’s best receiver on a weekly basis and was put in single coverage with no help at all much more often than Sherman was. He also moved into the slot or swapped to the other side of the field when necessary, something Sherman only did when Browner was suspended.

 

There is no downplaying the difficulty of that assignment week in and week out. Now to have comparable stats to Richard Sherman and Revis's job was considerably harder, it makes the choice very easy for me. Single man coverage against the teams best receiver, no help over top, and moved all over the field including the slot compared to, cover 3 press zone scheme, stays on one side, and has an all pro safety over top of him. It's just not comparable to me at all.

Edited June 20, 2013 by dutchff7

[KempBolt 498]

I have already. It's a thread in the NFC West forum. Also, as far as the qualifying and non-qualifying plays, those are hypotheticals that are based off his judgement. That's including plays where the ball didn't get thrown to their side and the receiver may have appeared open but completely factoring out if the cornerback possibly recovered to make a play on the ball. I'm not so much for blind faith. I'd have to see it myself. Targets and receptions is a more reliable quantifiable stat and is a better indicator of success rather than what could have possibly happened or not.

 

 

But this was my main stance and it's a huge one that can't be downplayed.

 

 

 

There is no downplaying the difficulty of that assignment week in and week out. Now to have comparable stats to Richard Sherman and Revis's job was considerably harder, it makes the choice very easy for me. Single man coverage against the teams best receiver, no help over top, and moved all over the field including the slot compared to, cover 3 press zone scheme, stays on one side, and has an all pro safety over top of him. It's just not comparable to me at all.

 

Stop this. It's compelling me to agree with you.

[Dutch 874]

Stop this. It's compelling me to agree with you.

 

 

 

Edited June 19, 2013 by dutchff7

[Dutch 874]

All media accounts from the OTAs and minicamp have said they hadn't seen Sherman get beat once.

 

[True Blue 16]

Edited June 20, 2013 by True Blue

[True Blue 16]

I have already. It's a thread in the NFC West forum. Also, as far as the qualifying and non-qualifying plays, those are hypotheticals that are based off his judgement. That's including plays where the ball didn't get thrown to their side and the receiver may have appeared open but completely factoring out if the cornerback possibly recovered to make a play on the ball. I'm not so much for blind faith. I'd have to see it myself. Targets and receptions is a more reliable quantifiable stat and is a better indicator of success rather than what could have possibly happened or not.

 

 

But this was my main stance and it's a huge one that can't be downplayed.

 

 

 

There is no downplaying the difficulty of that assignment week in and week out. Now to have comparable stats to Richard Sherman and Revis's job was considerably harder, it makes the choice very easy for me. Single man coverage against the teams best receiver, no help over top, and moved all over the field including the slot compared to, cover 3 press zone scheme, stays on one side, and has an all pro safety over top of him. It's just not comparable to me at all.

 

Fair enough. However just because Sherm hasn't been utilized like that, doesn't mean that he wouldn't be as effective or even more effective than Revis if he was. I still think Sherm will be the best CB going forward, considering Revis' injury.

[Dutch 874]

We'll see. It will be interesting to say the least.