How does your team's roster stack up?

[Stewy 8]

I could of swore AP just came of a season ending knee injury ? How did that go again ?

 

And this is a decent place to have a good conversation so whine and complain all you want, but the fact is TGP collectively is the best place to talk football. And yes this is the kind of forum where if what you say is idiotic, expect to get called on it. I have not seen a single one of the new Denver fans come in and not just throw around a bunch of invincibility talk and look down their nose at teams and then defending their own as if they are a juggernaut.

 

I can go back and reference that shit through the last 4 pages.

 

You leave Webb off because of his injury. Do you knock Darelle Revis out of the top 3 or 5 because of injury ? I doubt it. And before you go off on some tangent about how Webb was not even close remember he graded out as the second best corner in the league his last year of playing and if taking playoffs into account was the best corner in the NFL. So how are you going to impute the damage done and the presumed loss of play ? Are you going off of anything at all ? You cant even really use the ACL tear anymore because people come back from that all the time.

 

I get so tired of the whole well A.P. did it so that means everybody else can too argument. Yes an ACL tear is not as career ending as it used to be even just 5 years ago but it still is an injury that can take a bit to adjust. If you listen to A.P.'s doctor who operated on him he said that he has never seen a knee like that of A.P. in all the years he has been a doctor.

 

Yes in my top 5 list I knock Darelle Revis down some too. With both of them I play more of a wait and see attitude. Beyond just injury it takes a bit to get back into game shape and prepared for game speed. The Broncos experienced this last year with Peyton Manning taking a while to get back into the swing of things. Peyton even admitted that he was not prepared mentally after sitting out a year for some of the things that came at him.

 

And I have found other places that are great places to talk football beyond this place. I'm not saying I don't like this forum just was hoping this would be a place where name calling was not the basis of most arguments.

 

Also I don't think the Broncos are invincible. They have problems just like every other team in the league. I question the middle of the Broncos defense with a new MLB starting and the safety play being shaky at times last year. I question where some of the pass rush is going to come from on defense. I question how good the run game is going to be this year with McGahee now gone. I question the health of the OL considering most are coming back from some kind of surgery and now Walton might be lost for at least half the year. There are plenty of things on the Broncos this season to question. Now having said that they do seem to have a pretty solid roster and as good a chance as anybody to make it to the Superbowl.

[Dutch 874]

I think Stewy is catching unnecessary heat because of the other homer Broncos fans. He's actually been presenting himself pretty well and producing logic in his post. It's also not blasphemous that he doesn't have Ladarius Webb in his top 5. It's his opinion and he gave a reason why he believes he isn't; a year away from football and an injury. Valid opinionated points. Stewy isn't coming off as a homer. Just that Crash dude.

Edited July 8, 2013 by dutchff7

[KempBolt 498]

You can lose a player even after trying to offer them a contract and still come out being smart. Yes they offered Dumervil $8 million a year because they thought that was closer to his actual value on the field than the blown up contract he had. It was a good deal for both sides as it saved the Broncos some money and Dumervil was still being paid a little above market value. Obviously that fell through. Now if the Broncos did nothing after the Fax Fiasco then yes Elway would look like an idiot. The fact that he didn't just throw his hands up and say I give up and actually went out to do something about the loss of a player like Dumervil is where he comes out looking pretty smart.

 

Now I realize the Broncos lose some in cap space because of dead money but for the most they still gained some cap space by Dumervil being gone. Of that money so far the Broncos have used it to sign Phillips, Williams, Smith, and Knighton lets say. So now the question becomes with all of those players combined can they replace what was lost by Dumervil being gone.

 

You being a Chargers fan probably have a better idea of how much an impact that Phillips made the combination of QB Hits, Sacks, and Tackles for Loss Dumervil had 37 for the year while Phillips had 33. The fact that the Broncos are paying him only $1 million this year (plus incentives) compared to the contract for Dumervil makes that a pretty darn good deal. Throw in Phillips did not have as many opportunities as Dumervil and it makes that number look even a little bit better.

 

Last year the problem in the playoff game wasn't so much that Von Miller and Dumervil didn't have some opportunities. The problem was that the pressure up the middle was non-existent meaning all Flacco had to do was step up a bit and it completely neutralized the pass rush. In comes now Williams and Wolfe on 3rd down situations and the pressure up the middle should be a bit better this year.

 

Will the Broncos defense be better this year? I do not know. Again as always there are a ton of factors that go into that. The fact the Broncos for the first time in 8 years have the same DC back should help the defense. There though are some question marks such as how will Irving do as a first time starter at MLB? Who are going to be the starting safeties? Is DRC going to be a decent corner or get burned like he did for Philly? Can the pass rush be as good as last year? Is this the year Champ finally looks old? There are question marks on the Broncos defense. Depending on how many of those questions end up as positives will determine if they are a top 5 defense again or not.

 

Let's make this really simple.

 

Was it good or bad that the Broncos lost Dumervil?

[Stewy 8]

Let's make this really simple.

 

Was it good or bad that the Broncos lost Dumervil?

 

Don't know yet. Dumervil is a good pass rusher there is no denying that. He also though was being paid as a top 10 player in the NFL and well I don't think you would find many who would say he is playing at that level.

 

Now will the defense be better without Dumervil? I honestly have no idea with the players the Broncos have added of how they will produce.

 

The Broncos cutting Dumervil though has to be looked at beyond just his impact on the defense. It has to be looked at through the contract side of things as well. The Broncos over the next couple of years will have Von Miller, D. Thomas, Woodyard, Clady, Decker, Beadles, Walton, DRC, Harris, Tony Carter, and a few others to think about signing. So with the Dumervil contract off the books does that mean we can keep a couple of these guys that otherwise would have been lost? That has to be factored into the discussion as well.

 

Now honestly I do expect the defense to take a bit of a step back this year going from I think 3rd in the NFL to maybe somewhere around 8th in total defense. I do see this defense though being better at causing turnovers as I think Moore being in his 3rd year will finally have things together and make a few more plays and DRC is pretty good at causing turnovers as well. So like I said I think the Defense will take a small step back but the money saved from the Dumervil contract will mean a couple of guys will stay that otherwise couldn't have. I guess for me I would rather have Clady at that $12 million a year than Dumervil at this time.

[KempBolt 498]

Don't know yet. Dumervil is a good pass rusher there is no denying that. He also though was being paid as a top 10 player in the NFL and well I don't think you would find many who would say he is playing at that level.

 

Now will the defense be better without Dumervil? I honestly have no idea with the players the Broncos have added of how they will produce.

 

The Broncos cutting Dumervil though has to be looked at beyond just his impact on the defense. It has to be looked at through the contract side of things as well. The Broncos over the next couple of years will have Von Miller, D. Thomas, Woodyard, Clady, Decker, Beadles, Walton, DRC, Harris, Tony Carter, and a few others to think about signing. So with the Dumervil contract off the books does that mean we can keep a couple of these guys that otherwise would have been lost? That has to be factored into the discussion as well.

 

Now honestly I do expect the defense to take a bit of a step back this year going from I think 3rd in the NFL to maybe somewhere around 8th in total defense. I do see this defense though being better at causing turnovers as I think Moore being in his 3rd year will finally have things together and make a few more plays and DRC is pretty good at causing turnovers as well. So like I said I think the Defense will take a small step back but the money saved from the Dumervil contract will mean a couple of guys will stay that otherwise couldn't have. I guess for me I would rather have Clady at that $12 million a year than Dumervil at this time.

 

Look, you seem very reasonable. But you have taken up the argument of someone who is saying that losing Dumervil was good for the Broncos, that Elway was smart not to signing a veteran DE to big money, and all the while ignoring that Elway tried to do essentially that by keeping Dumervil (a veteran DE) at 8/season. Doesn't seem like any of that is your assertion necessarily, but you kind of picked up where Crash left off. And those are the things I'm contesting. So if that's not what you're saying, I really don't have anything to debate with you.

[Stewy 8]

Look, you seem very reasonable. But you have taken up the argument of someone who is saying that losing Dumervil was good for the Broncos, that Elway was smart not to signing a veteran DE to big money, and all the while ignoring that Elway tried to do essentially that by keeping Dumervil (a veteran DE) at 8/season. Doesn't seem like any of that is your assertion necessarily, but you kind of picked up where Crash left off. And those are the things I'm contesting. So if that's not what you're saying, I really don't have anything to debate with you.

 

This is where looking at the contract language is of the utmost importance. The contract the Broncos were offering Dumervil was for this year to be at $8 million and next year to only have $3.5 million guaranteed only if he got injured so basically other than injury this was a one year contract they were offering Dumervil. By having to cut him it cost around $5 million in dead money so essentially the savings between what the Broncos offered and what Dumervil was going to get paid is around $3 million. Pretty much for the Broncos they have given that to Phillips and a couple of other guys depending on how incentives play out but over the next 2 years will be saving around $10 million a year. That is about what Clady is wanting per year so essentially the Broncos are cutting Dumervil to be able to sign a guy like Clady long term.

 

Now was trying to sign Dumervil to an $8 million contract a good move? Well you have to remember the Broncos had more incentive than any other team to try and sign Dumervil this year because cutting him would mean that $5 million in dead money. So it makes sense to still offer him over market value if in the end it will cost your team more than any other team to not sign him. Now because the contract fell apart and he was cut the Broncos at least in my opinion did a pretty good job using the little bit of savings they did get to get impact players like Phillips and others for this year while now being able to look towards next season and the players they have to sign.

[KempBolt 498]

This is where looking at the contract language is of the utmost importance. The contract the Broncos were offering Dumervil was for this year to be at $8 million and next year to only have $3.5 million guaranteed only if he got injured so basically other than injury this was a one year contract they were offering Dumervil. By having to cut him it cost around $5 million in dead money so essentially the savings between what the Broncos offered and what Dumervil was going to get paid is around $3 million. Pretty much for the Broncos they have given that to Phillips and a couple of other guys depending on how incentives play out but over the next 2 years will be saving around $10 million a year. That is about what Clady is wanting per year so essentially the Broncos are cutting Dumervil to be able to sign a guy like Clady long term.

 

Now was trying to sign Dumervil to an $8 million contract a good move? Well you have to remember the Broncos had more incentive than any other team to try and sign Dumervil this year because cutting him would mean that $5 million in dead money. So it makes sense to still offer him over market value if in the end it will cost your team more than any other team to not sign him. Now because the contract fell apart and he was cut the Broncos at least in my opinion did a pretty good job using the little bit of savings they did get to get impact players like Phillips and others for this year while now being able to look towards next season and the players they have to sign.

 

So they wanted to keep him, it made sense to keep him, they ended up not being able to keep him, and are (at least to some degree) negatively impacted because of it?

 

Makes total sense. But that was not the take on the situation that I was arguing with.

[Stewy 8]

So they wanted to keep him, it made sense to keep him, they ended up not being able to keep him, and are (at least to some degree) negatively impacted because of it?

 

Makes total sense. But that was not the take on the situation that I was arguing with.

 

You are asking if it was a good thing for the Broncos to not have signed him even though they did try to sign him. I get that. What I am saying is if you look at the language of the contract the Broncos were essentially trying to work it where Dumervil took a pay cut for this year and made the language in the contract easier to cut him after this upcoming season. They were working to get cap help this year and the next couple of years so that they were not handcuffed by the Dumervil contract from keeping some of the younger talent.

 

I have said that I think the defense will take a small step backwards this season because of the loss of Dumervil. The Broncos essentially though accomplished what they wanted long term in that Dumervil's contract will not hinder them from signing the younger talent after this season. So it boils down to Dumervil being gone was not expected for this season but him being gone beyond this year was expected. Because of the unexpected results of Dumervil being cut the Broncos went out and signed a guy that has pass rush ability (not quite to Dumervil's ability but still has talent) in Phillips and used the draft to find possibly find Dumervil's heir in Quanterus Smith while also bulking up the middle of the defense with Williams to make the pass rush a little more balanced throughout the DL.

 

So your asking me was the Broncos cutting Dumervil after trying to sign him the right move? Yes it was. If he wasn't cut then the Broncos would be on the hook for his full contract paying him the $12 million this year while also then having dead money next year because of this issue. Dumervil will be in his 30's by that point which is where most take a downhill turn. With so much young talent to sign cap space is needed and unfortunately that means sometimes you have to cut a talented player to make room for a younger talent.

[seanbrock 1,684]

QB: D- could change if Foles makes some key improvements

RB: A+ One elite back and some great depth behind him

FB/H-Back ? Hard to say. Haven't seen much of Phillips and I'm not sure how much of a role he'll have in the offense anyway

WR: B- Good group, not great. No stud number 1 but a lot of speed and a good guy in the slot in Avant

TE: B- Celek and Harbor are ok and Ertz could have this group graded higher by seasons end if he's as good as I think he can be

OT: B- This is another grade that could be higher if Peters is healthy and Johnson plays well as a rookie. Depth is an issue though so it could be a lot worse as well

OG: A+ Evan Mathis is maybe the best in the business atm, Herremans is a very good OG with a ton of experience and I actually don't mind Watkins as a back up

C: B- It all depends on how well Kelce comes back. If he comes back well enough I could bump this up to a B+

 

5Tech/3Tech: B another group who has a ton of potential but there are a lot of unknowns, how is Thorton going to handle the extra work load? Can Cox be as good a 5 tech as a 3 tech? How much will Logan contribute as a rookie?

 

1/0tech: B I think Sopoaga and Dixon will be pretty serviceable here. Sopoaga brings valuable experience in a 3-4 DL. Don't see much room for improvement but I don't see this position as a weakness either

 

6/7/9tech/OLB: B+ this could be a lot, lot higher if the secondary plays better and teams aren't just letting the DE's run up field. Phillip Hunt and Brandon Graham could be fucking awesome. Not sure if Cole can make the transition at this point in his career but he did come into the league at 240 LBS so who knows?

 

MIKE/TED: C+ Ryans has struggled in the 3-4 in the past and we still have to see Kendricks put together a complete season. I expect him to play much better in his sophomore year. If not, time to move on.

 

CB: ???? No starting CB's are returning for us this year. I like the Fletcher pick up and the Cary Williams pick up. If guys like Marsh and Boykin can step it up they could be a solid group, especially if all the pass rushers the Eagles spent time collecting play like they should

 

FS: C+ When Kenny Phillips suits up, he can be one hell of a football player, but to say the Eagles depth behind him is shaky is an understatement to say the least.

 

SS: F thisssss could get ugly. Our choices are Kurt Coleman, Patrick Chung or a 5th round draft pick rookie. We're going to get beat for some big plays on the strong side this year.

 

Return Game: A, plenty of options for the Eagles in the return game with plenty of speed and explosiveness.

 

K: A+ Simply put, Henery is one of the best

 

P: A- Brad Wing has a shot to be something and if not Donnie Jones is still pretty good

 

LS: ? Don't know shit about what happening here. We've had a specialist on the team for years. New coach, we'll see if he sticks. We use to have a solid veteran blocking TE in Bartrum for years. Dorenbos never sees the field outside of the kicking game.

Edited June 21, 2013 by seanbrock

[Attyla the Hawk 197]

I'll just interrupt this Broncos circle jerk for some unabashed homerism from last years' preseason:

 

[Omerta+ 1,206]

I think Stewy is catching unnecessary heat because of the other homer Broncos fans. He's actually been representing himself pretty well and producing logic in his reasoning (post). It's also not blasphemous that he doesn't have Ladarius Webb in his top 5. It's his opinion and he gave a reason why he believes he isn't; a year away from football and an injury. Valid opinionated points. Stewy isn't coming off as a homer. Just that Crash dude.

 

 

You know what Dutch? You speak the truth. Sincere apologies Stewie. The entirety of that Denver post was directed towards crash and you just happened to be the Broncos fan commenting. I apologize. Your reasoning was well founded and I was being a bitch about it.