If the Patriots win the Super Bowl...

[DonovanMcnabb for H.O.F 2,241]

Lots of what-ifs. The problem is that Brady has 4 rings now, and there is no argument against that. What if Tyree didn't make that catch? He'd likely have 5. Again, it's all hypothetical, but when we look back 10 years from now we'll see Brady having 4 rings, not the what-ifs around him being the GOAT.

 

This is an empty statement to me.

 

Three of those came before Brady was even in his prime. And the last three with him in it have had crazy stuff happen in the end of the games that have had nothing to do with him that have directly affected the game.

 

Down 10 in the 4th quarter. Biggest 4th quarter comeback in SB history against one of the most talented defenses of all time.

 

This isn't 2013, that defense was an all time great, this one wasn't even the best for the majority of the season.

 

This defense for the majority of the 4th that Brady faced was down to rookies in the secondary with almost every member of LOB playing through an injury, and Cliff Avril gone.

 

And also, is that comeback supposed to make us forget about the rest of his unimpressive performance and two bad turnovers? Or does it somehow cancels all that....

[Thanatos 2,847]

Joe did it without cheating.

 

What about the Niners lying about how much they were paying players?

[Zack_of_Steel+ 3,014]

Zack I respect your opinions on most things, but your Spygate stuff is just a conspiracy theory. There's also plenty of evidence that what the Patriots were doing was what everyone else was doing. Hell, the reason Belichek was caught was because he put his guys in construction orange and tossed them in the middle of the stands. He was doing it to make a point to the league, because the Jets were still taping his practices and he was rather angry over it.

 

Your Patriots hate is funny, considering how rational you are most of the time.

If you haven't read the two posts in the old thread, I don't care to hear your opinion on whether it's a conspiracy or not. The cheating goes far beyond the taping and "Spygate", but because Spygate and Deflategate were featured in the media, they're the only two facets of their cheating that are fixated on by fans/pundits.

 

I've said for literally years now that the largest advantage they've gained via cheating has been the audio frequencies, but nobody cares to even entertain that conversation. If they do it's just, "nah, lolconspiracy" or "nah, patriotsdagreatest". Where there's smoke, there's generally fire.

 

And it's also laughable to me that any time this is brought up, the only rebuttal is, "you're a Steelers fan and you just hate the Patriots".

 

I understand that no Patriots fan is ever going to look at the evidence and go, "okay, maybe", because it would invalidate their fandom. But not all fans have their views clouded by homerism. You said it yourself, that I'm "rational most of the time".

 

When Ben was accused of rape I was the first to say that, if it actually happened, I wanted Ben traded to the Rams so we could draft Sam Bradford (it was the rumor at the time) or I wanted them to trade him for a pile of picks to build around Dennis Dixon, whom I thought had potential. It was only after the evidence began to trickle out that I emphatically came to his defense.

 

 

their overall winning percentage has been a statistical anomaly, as you pointed out, they were 77-16 (.828) from 2002 through 2012 at home, but they were 135-41 (.767) overall (regular season only) and had 12 or more wins in seven of those eleven seasons, and since teams are typically better at home this really doesn't seem as surprising

It's pretty easy to hit 12 wins when you're somehow going 8-0 almost every season at home. Pointing to their overall record means shit when the point that this is making is that their success at home compared to the rest of the league is an anomaly. Yes, teams are better at home, but the Patriots are better than they should be. Three statistical standard deviations is nothing to scoff at, lol.

 

 

 

 

I've said what I'm going to say.

 

Based on what I've read, I feel that the Patriots have done anything they can to win, outside of the rules or not, and that it's impossible to accurately place Brady on the all-time list because of this.

 

I had him at 4 when I last did it, despite my feelings on the cheating. He's a great QB, but I feel he's had many advantages that have elevated his play. There's already a debate on whether or not he should surpass Montana as GOAT and I feel that is thrown out the window when the cheating angle is included.

Edited February 2, 2015 by Zack_of_Steel

[Piggly Wiggly 960]

As for Phil, though, you talked a shit ton of trash all week against the Hawks, then when things were looking grim down 24-14, you completely bailed on your team and gave up on them, saying you guys were gonna get blown it and it was over. Much like you did one season midway through, (and then the Pats reached the AFCCG). No respect there, bud.

No, it didn't take the Pats getting down 24-14 for me to start losing faith in them. It was the 29 second drive to end the 1st half where the Seahawks went 80 yards and tied the game up with the no-name receiver Chris Matthews getting the TD. Truly rocked me to my core. That easily was the worst drive by far by the Pats defense this season. Worse than probably anything that I saw the 2011 Pats' defense (the most atrocious defense I've personally seen in NE) do.

 

It's not necessarily about the deficit, but more of the way how things transpire and change the momentum for me to lose my confidence in the Pats winning. I've actually had strong faith throughout the season with this Pats team (including when they faced a more uphill battle against Baltimore in the Divisional game), but the way that 1st half ended rattled me like no other.

 

Ya'll really thought I was bullshitting when I said I wasn't worried one bit when the Pats were down 14-0? There was truly never a doubt. No need to be a super sad cunt like Bware and turn the game off in the 1st quarter to go watch some gay TV series. Easy to have plenty of faith in this Pats team. They just have it this year. Different team, different mentality from the past several years.

 

Never a worry, never a panic during this game.

 

[Cherry 1,302]

 

This is an empty statement to me.

 

Three of those came before Brady was even in his prime. And the last three with him in it have had crazy stuff happen in the end of the games that have had nothing to do with him that have directly affected the game.

 

 

This isn't 2013, that defense was an all time great, this one wasn't even the best for the majority of the season.

 

This defense for the majority of the 4th that Brady faced was down to rookies in the secondary with almost every member of LOB playing through an injury, and Cliff Avril gone.

 

And also, is that comeback supposed to make us forget about the rest of his unimpressive performance and two bad turnovers? Or does it somehow cancels all that....

Rings nonetheless. It doesn't matter how empty you view that statement, Brady has been to 6 and won 4.

 

Explain the difference between this defense and the 2013 defense? LOB was obviously hurt but I wouldn't say this team was that much weaker. Cliff Avril and Lane going down hurt but that wasn't necessarily a game-changer. Pats were already competing well and the lack of the two down the stretch didn't blow the talent level out of proportion. Yes, that comeback cancels it as it won the super bowl. I'm not a fan of Brady, but I understand how great he is and that he deserves recognition as the best ever.

Edited February 2, 2015 by Chernobyl426

[BradyFan81 404]

Brady was along for the ride for his first three rings. Once the team was put on his back, it took them until now to win another. I still had him in the top 4 when I did my list post-2012 (which included Brees and Rodgers).

 

 

 

I don't care how much anyone wants to dismiss their cheating, there's too much evidence against them for me to write it off, especially in a game of inches, where any one play can make or break a game.

 

A while back I compiled all of the evidence and quotes and such. Like I said then, I'm sure not many of you will read any of it, but the evidence is there. If you want the entire story, check out my two posts in the old thread. If not, I'll give bullet points further down:

 

http://www.thegridironpalace.com/forums/index.php?/topic/68531-attn-phil-zack-addresses-spygate/&do=findComment&comment=2508799

 

 

 

Aside from the "fumble proof post-2006" article that Vin/JD posted:

 

-They've had multiple opponents publicly report having their headsets malfunction or go out in the middle of sustained drives in Foxborough, even during the playoffs (Lions, Bengals, Jaguars, Browns).

 

-They've been caught with multiple extra, unapproved/suspicious radio frequencies

 

-Ernie Adams has been with Bill since his days with the Browns. He's a genius that had a huge article written on him by ESPN back in 2008.

 

 

-They used a second radio frequency for QB helmets that did not cut off 15 seconds prior to the start of the play (NFL's rule). An extra 15 seconds for genius Ernie Adams to decipher the defense and tell Brady what to do.

 

-Their winning percentage at home has been a statistical anomaly. The following numbers are prior to the 2012 season. From 2012-Present, they've lost only 3 home games:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Zack_of_Steel+ 3,014]

I understand that no Patriots fan is ever going to look at the evidence and go, "okay, maybe", because it would invalidate their fandom.

You can quit trying so hard.

[DonovanMcnabb for H.O.F 2,241]

Rings nonetheless. It doesn't matter how empty you view that statement, Brady has been to 6 and won 4.

 

Explain the difference between this defense and the 2013 defense? LOB was obviously hurt but I wouldn't say this team was that much weaker. Cliff Avril and Lane going down hurt but that wasn't necessarily a game-changer. Pats were already competing well and the lack of the two down the stretch didn't blow the talent level out of proportion. Yes, that comeback cancels it as it won the super bowl. I'm not a fan of Brady, but I understand how great he is and that he deserves recognition as the best ever.

 

Again, this says nothing about how great of a QB Brady is. This is almost pointless.

 

And lol at, their second best pass rusher going down not being a game changer when it just so happened to be Brady's best quarter.

 

Also, lol at trying to play off Lane's injury, guess who was abused the most in that secondary last night?

 

After Jeremy Lane was forced from the game after his interception, Brady went to work on Simon targeting him 11 times to collect 91 yards and two scores against the second-year corner. Further adding to Simon’s struggles were two missed tackles, one each fromBrandon LaFell and Julian Edelman.

 

The Seahawks were 5th this year in passer rating, last year they were first, the difference of over 10 points in passer rating between 1st and second place in 2013. In fact, they gave up a higher passer rating this year compared to last year by nearly 20 points. They had 15 more interceptions last year then this year. That's the difference between an all time great pass defense, and just another great pass, or really good pass defense.

 

The arbitrary "ring" argument, is your only real argument, and it's not really a valid one. His performance Itself was solid, maybe even good. But it was far from memorable, and far from the kind of performance that would elevate someone from being in a conversation for possibly GOAT to GOAT.

 

And had the Patriots lost that game, on the Seahawks last drive everyone would think Brady played either average, or good- at best. You can call that the "if" game if you want, but the fact that it's still true shows how forgettable the performance really was.

[Thanatos 2,847]

If you haven't read the two posts in the old thread, I don't care to hear your opinion on whether it's a conspiracy or not. The cheating goes far beyond the taping and "Spygate", but because Spygate and Deflategate were featured in the media, they're the only two facets of their cheating that are fixated on by fans/pundits.

 

I've said for literally years now that the largest advantage they've gained via cheating has been the audio frequencies, but nobody cares to even entertain that conversation. If they do it's just, "nah, lolconspiracy" or "nah, patriotsdagreatest". Where there's smoke, there's generally fire.

 

And it's also laughable to me that any time this is brought up, the only rebuttal is, "you're a Steelers fan and you just hate the Patriots".

 

I understand that no Patriots fan is ever going to look at the evidence and go, "okay, maybe", because it would invalidate their fandom. But not all fans have their views clouded by homerism. You said it yourself, that I'm "rational most of the time".

 

When Ben was accused of rape I was the first to say that, if it actually happened, I wanted Ben traded to the Rams so we could draft Sam Bradford (it was the rumor at the time) or I wanted them to trade him for a pile of picks to build around Dennis Dixon, whom I thought had potential. It was only after the evidence began to trickle out that I emphatically came to his defense.

 

 

 

It's pretty easy to hit 12 wins when you're somehow going 8-0 almost every season at home. Pointing to their overall record means shit when the point that this is making is that their success at home compared to the rest of the league is an anomaly. Yes, teams are better at home, but the Patriots are better than they should be. Three statistical standard deviations is nothing to scoff at, lol.

 

I have read the other thread and I feel most of your so-called evidence is just a bunch of hearsay and coincidences. I'm not saying you hate the Pats *because* you're a Steelers fan, but you clearly do hate the Patriots and it has undoubtedly colored how you view the evidence. There is plenty of evidence the other way as well, and your story is mainly based off of things with alternate explanations.

[Piggly Wiggly 960]

You can quit trying so hard.

 

Edited February 3, 2015 by Piggly Wiggly

[BradyFan81 404]

And had the Patriots lost that game, on the Seahawks last drive everyone would think Brady played either average, or good- at best. You can call that the "if" game if you want, but the fact that it's still true shows how forgettable the performance really was.

 

Well they'd be wrong in that opinion. 4 TDs and a 100 passer rating with a nonexistent running game against the best defense in the league is not average. Win or lose Brady played a great game.