So now, KD>Howard?

[DonovanMcnabb for H.O.F 2,241]

When u evualute a player, u gotta include everything there is. Offense production, Defense, clutch, factor, etc. Dwight has all of those except a post game offensive to be consistent. What i mean is, yes hes big and strong but like i said look at Tim Duncan. He isnt the best PF of all time bcuz of his stats. Not just that anyways. But how he did it. His impact. Clutchiness. When Tim Duncan gets the ball in big moments, u never expect him to miss or disappoint. I dont feel that way about Howard. Carrying a team means your the best. Being the second best player in the NBA yet u dont have that impact? How is that the case then if hes #2? Thats wut im asking. His impact on defense isnt enough to get him to be a top 3 player.

 

This is bull. Dwight Howard on defense right now, healthy, is the same impact as KG in his prime. There isn't a defender who can impact the game as much as Howard.

 

Put Howard on your team, and your defense will rank in the league’s top 10. At worst. Howard IS THAT good defensively.

 

Outside of Lebron on offense, and maybe KG, who else can you say that about?

 

Wade yeah, before last year he was a top 3 player. Behind LBJ and KD for me. Offensive game was on point, clutch ( before LBJ got there ) and his Defensive impact. He had a impact on both sides of the ball every game. Dwight offense isnt a impact. Thats what i dont get with u guys saying his offense is good. Avging 22 is good on paper. But how many of those points are from his post game, his own created shot? Sure he can score 20 throughtout the game. But if i throw the ball to dwight and expect him to make a game tying basket im not so sure about it. Get that point? If hes not the go to guy in clutch then how is he the 2nd best? Lebron proved he could carry a team of role players in Cleveland. If Lebron had all those stats and couldnt carry a team, no matter how good his stats were he wouldnt be the best player in the NBA OVERALL. Mentally, clutchiness HAS to count in this debate. Or else ur going by stats and thats wrong.

 

1. Dwight Howard last year was assisted at a rate of of 53% of his shots. And led all centers in points. To put that into perspective, Andrea Barganni and Lopez were 2nd and 3rd, and they were assisted on 63% of their shots.

 

Howard does create his own offense, he doesn't do it with an array of moves, but he deffinetly creates his own shots. That boy Timmy Duncan that you bought up? Yea, he gets assisted on more shots then Howard.

 

2. Howard doesn't even have to touch the ball and he makes an impact on offense, the sheer fact that you can dump it off to him and will overpower you to the basket forces teams to have to focus more attention on him then anyone else.

 

3. You bring up LBJ carrying teams in Cleveland to the finals with a bunch of role players. You stick a healthy Howard on your team, surround him with players who have even decent offensive games, and you have yourself probably a 50 win team. That's something you absolutely cannot say about KD. Or even Wade for that matter.

 

4. GTFO of here with the clutch shit being used as a serious reason as to why KD is a better player. Like wth? In what world does a guy who's 'clutch' gets the pass over being better then a guy who can carry your team's defense, draw the majority of attention on offense, and grab a assload of rebounds?

Edited July 4, 2012 by DonovanMcnabb for H.O.F

[DonovanMcnabb for H.O.F 2,241]

Phil on the other hand. If a scoring machine, can score anyway possible. His defense on man to man is lockdown. He causes turnovers on D from playing them perfectly and tight. Gives no space to get a good shot off. Can hit the big moment baskets.

 

Now say milla has to choose his teammate. He knows all this assesments by playing ball with each of us before. Who is he going to choose overall? From whos a best standpoint. I know id pick Phil bcuz hes elite on both sides. He can hit that tough shot. Im lookin at this thru a basketball point of view. Not sportscenter. Those idiots try to put labels on a sports game to make it "simple". Dwights a great player but like i said i dont see how i could put him over KD. Hes above Wade now, Wade falling slowly.

 

Except you guys on here have been overrating the living hell of KD's defense. Elite? Great? What? Are you even being serious?

 

KD is NOT a great defender. He's hardly even a top 10 defender at his own POSITION! Lock-down?

 

The ONLY reason why KD is good at disrupting shots is because of his length. Outside of that, KD's defense is average. He's got awful feet, he's bad off of pick and rolls, he doesn't have the quickness or he hips, and he doesn't have the instincts.

 

Only reason why he stuck with Kobe is because of the height differential, and Kobe's style of play.

[56AceInDaPlace 110]

Except you guys on here have been overrating the living hell of KD's defense. Elite? Great? What? Are you even being serious?

 

KD is NOT a great defender. He's hardly even a top 10 defender at his own POSITION! Lock-down?

 

The ONLY reason why KD is good at disrupting shots is because of his length. Outside of that, KD's defense is average. He's got awful feet, he's bad off of pick and rolls, he doesn't have the quickness or he hips, and he doesn't have the instincts.

 

Only reason why he stuck with Kobe is because of the height differential, and Kobe's style of play.

 

Did i say KD plays elite defense? No now your just putting words in my mouth, thats a no no. His D is good/above average. Ok bcuz of his length but u cant hold that against him. If it helps him play D then so be it.

[Milla4Prez63 678]

No, clutch is a valid argument in any sports debate. However Skip uses it in a different way without putting basketball knowledge into it. I play ball, im sure some of others on the board have too. If you know u have someone on ur team that u can rely to hit that GW shot or tying shot it makes the game a bit more easier and gives u more confidence as a player. Dont tell me im skip baylessing it when i clearly gave an example of Tim Duncan usage of post moves in a certain moment. Obviously its not a easy game where u just dribble and score. If that was the case then nobody would be great lol. Yes i said Dwight is a force on the Defensive end. I dont get what it is with this board. I posted many times hes a impact on the defensive end, but u here tryna tell me about defensive clutch? Its been pointed out i gave him that title of a impact defender. But that alone isnt enough to calling he among the best.

 

The problem with clutch is how do you really define clutch? Is it hitting a GW shot? Making big plays that put the game out of reach? It is is too vague of a trait to take that serious. There isn't one way of being clutch, but most people just look into one aspect (buzzer beaters).

 

Dwight deserves more of the title "impact defender." He is a 3x DPOY and is BY FAR the best defensive player in the league. His presence at that end is incredible. The Magic have always been a top defensive team in the league despite our starting lineups not consisting of good defensive players (Rasard Lewis, Hedo Turkoglu, Vince Carter, Jason Richardson, Jameer Nelson, etc.) There has only been a few players I'd qualify as good/solid defenders to be starters around Dwight and they had inconsistent roles and didn't stick that long (Courtney Lee, Mickael Pietrus, Matt Barnes, Keith Bogans, etc.) Having Dwight in your lineup makes nearly any lineup in the league one of the league's best on defense.

 

 

Ok, let me put it this way. Example so u see where im coming from. Me Dmac and Phil go to play ball. Im an offensive player, out of all three of us i can score the best. Im known for closing games out by hitting that clutch basket in the big moment of the game. However my D is average. I give up points more then i should.

 

Dmac is like dwight, he gets boards, his D is the best among us three. His offense is average. He has to be setup to score bcuz he cant make his own shot. However he locks down any player that tries to post him up and makes impactful blocks.

 

Phil on the other hand. If a scoring machine, can score anyway possible. His defense on man to man is lockdown. He causes turnovers on D from playing them perfectly and tight. Gives no space to get a good shot off. Can hit the big moment baskets.

 

Now say milla has to choose his teammate. He knows all this assesments by playing ball with each of us before. Who is he going to choose overall? From whos a best standpoint. I know id pick Phil bcuz hes elite on both sides. He can hit that tough shot. Im lookin at this thru a basketball point of view. Not sportscenter. Those idiots try to put labels on a sports game to make it "simple". Dwights a great player but like i said i dont see how i could put him over KD. Hes above Wade now, Wade falling slowly.

 

The problem with this is you downplayed Dwight's abilities (calling him average on offense, which just isn't true) and exagerated Durant's abilities (calling him a lockdown defender, which also isn't true).

[DonovanMcnabb for H.O.F 2,241]

Did i say KD plays elite defense? No now your just putting words in my mouth, thats a no no. His D is good/above average. Ok bcuz of his length but u cant hold that against him. If it helps him play D then so be it.

 

Phil on the other hand. If a scoring machine, can score anyway possible. His defense on man to man is lockdown. He causes turnovers on D from playing them perfectly and tight. Gives no space to get a good shot off. Can hit the big moment baskets.

 

Unless if Phill in your analogy doesn't mean KD?

Edited July 4, 2012 by DonovanMcnabb for H.O.F

[56AceInDaPlace 110]

This is bull. Dwight Howard on defense right now, healthy, is the same impact as KG in his prime. There isn't a defender who can impact the game as much as Howard.

 

Put Howard on your team, and your defense will rank in the league’s top 10. At worst. Howard IS THAT good defensively.

 

Outside of Lebron on offense, and maybe KG, who else can you say that about?

 

 

 

1. Dwight Howard last year was assisted at a rate of of 53% of his shots. And led all centers in points. To put that into perspective, Andrea Barganni and Lopez were 2nd and 3rd, and they were assisted on 63% of their shots.

 

Howard does create his own offense, he doesn't do it with an array of moves, but he deffinetly creates his own shots. That boy Timmy Duncan that you bought up? Yea, he gets assisted on more shots then Howard.2. Howard doesn't even have to touch the ball and he makes an impact on offense, the sheer fact that you can dump it off to him and will overpower you to the basket forces teams to have to focus more attention on him then anyone else.

 

3. You bring up LBJ carrying teams in Cleveland to the finals with a bunch of role players. You stick a healthy Howard on your team, surround him with players who have even decent offensive games, and you have yourself probably a 50 win team. That's something you absolutely cannot say about KD. Or even Wade for that matter.

 

4. GTFO of here with the clutch shit being used as a serious reason as to why KD is a better player. Like wth? In what world does a guy who's 'clutch' gets the pass over being better then a guy who can carry your team's defense, draw the majority of attention on offense, and grab a assload of rebounds?

 

Bolded - , duh now he does. Hes old, but even still he gets the ball he has a array of moves, yes that is something important. If the opposing team knows he lacks a left hand hook shot, they will tell the post defender, make him go left and force him to use his weak hand etc. Thats something skip bayless wouldnt know about. Tim Duncan in his prime though. Smh, Legend.

 

Anyways Dwight missed alot of time last yr and they still made the playoffs. Given the East is weak, but still. Wade cant carry a team? Oh boy, my homeboy would be livid on that statement lol. Hes a diehard. Wades led the Heat to the playoffs based on him. The one yr they won 15 games he was hurt most of that year. Wade was someone who wasnt getting love for what he was doing in Miami. Yes the way he carried his team in clutch moments thruout the season before LBJ got there. Yeah i def had him at #3.

 

And a pass? KD is a SUPERIOR scorer to Dwight. Clutch in hitting that tough shot, makes the defense pay attention to where hes at on the floor. You act like KD doesnt have a impact on the Defense. Thanks to sports science and shit like that, ppl will now understand how fast Kd can get to the basket. Covered 63 feet in two dribbles and his gather. 63 FEET! Down the court just glided. His impact on the offensive side is like Dwight on the Defensive side. If u think not then idk what to tell u to make u change ur weird opinion. Not gunna knock anyone for their opinion on here but i would disagree put it that way.

[56AceInDaPlace 110]

Unless if Phill in your analogy doesn't mean KD?

 

Oh naw. No. Only player i made a reference too was Dwight for u. Phil and me werent anyone, i was just using us as an example.

Edited July 4, 2012 by 56AceInDaPlace

[housemd 338]

When u evualute a player, u gotta include everything there is. Offense production, Defense, clutch, factor, etc. Dwight has all of those except a post game offensive to be consistent. What i mean is, yes hes big and strong but like i said look at Tim Duncan. He isnt the best PF of all time bcuz of his stats. Not just that anyways. But how he did it. His impact. Clutchiness. When Tim Duncan gets the ball in big moments, u never expect him to miss or disappoint. I dont feel that way about Howard. Carrying a team means your the best. Being the second best player in the NBA yet u dont have that impact? How is that the case then if hes #2? Thats wut im asking. His impact on defense isnt enough to get him to be a top 3 player.

I agree with the Tim Duncan part but saying that Howard doesn't have the same impact on the Magic is hilarious..I mean,look at the players that surrounded him last season..Hedo,JRich,Jameer,Ryan Anderson..If you're telling me that those four carried the Magic and not Dwight,you're an absolute joke..

[56AceInDaPlace 110]

I agree with the Tim Duncan part but saying that Howard doesn't have the same impact on the Magic is hilarious..I mean,look at the players that surrounded him last season..Hedo,JRich,Jameer,Ryan Anderson..If you're telling me that those four carried the Magic and not Dwight,you're an absolute joke..

 

No but they did make the playoffs this year without him for what was it half the season? Thats all im saying. Dwight is a impact on a team i know that. Im not trying to diss Howard for the player he is. I said hes a top 5 player. Thats in the elite area of the NBA. But to take him over KD is just what i dont agree with is all. In order to make a case where who seems better u gotta hit the positives and negatives of a player. Thats how i always evaluated a player. I call it like i see it. Some agree. Some dont, like here. I would like Dwight on my team, and he would be a better fit for us then KD would on our squad now. But if we are drafting like a fantasy draft id take KD over anyone in the NBA right now. Thats just how high i have em.

Edited July 4, 2012 by 56AceInDaPlace

[Favre4Ever+ 4,476]

Can we slide Howard down the list because he is mentally unstable?

[56AceInDaPlace 110]

Can we slide Howard down the list because he is mentally unstable?

 

Why mentally unstable? Hes just trying to get the best for him in this situation. He said he feels betrayed, so in that thinking he would definitely want to leave.

[DonovanMcnabb for H.O.F 2,241]

Dwight Howard missed 12 games last year. Not 33. And they were at the end of the season.

 

Their is only one area of his game. ONE AREA. Where Durant has a clear advantage. Dwight Howard has several areas where he is 4 to 5 times better then Durant in. Durant has his scoring, and even then he is not 3 or 4 times better then Howard (At least result wise).

 

If your argument for why Durant is better is seriously that he can score in more ways, and is more clutch. Then it's an awful argument.

 

And lol at a perimeter player, especially a SG carrying a team like Howard. I mean, really?

 

Also, Howard has ALWAYS been in the bottom of the league among his position in terms of points assisted in. He gets his points in the post game by over power guys when he doesn't have the moves, we've seen him do it against double teams as well. Worrying about Howard taking up too many possessions is so dumb.

[Milla4Prez63 678]

We backed into the playoffs without Dwight. We were 3rd in the East when everyone was healthy, his injury dropped us to 6th and if there was another week in the season we were looking at 8th.

[butta54 371]

KD is better than Howard and hasn't been close the last couple of years.

[RazorStar 4,025]

I dunno about you guys, but I'd rather eat Kraft Dinner than go to Howard Johnson's to eat.

 

[DonovanMcnabb for H.O.F 2,241]

KD is better than Howard and hasn't been close the last couple of years.

 

ok... Care to explain?

[butta54 371]

I understand 56Ace's argument that he is trying to make and I actually agree for the most part. Pure athletic skill and power don't make you a great player and def doesn't make you a great scorer.

 

With the large lack of skill in the PF and C positions in the NBA it is very easy for a physical freak like Dwight Howard to OVERPOWER players as has been mentioned numerous times in this thread. If he grabs a rebound and goes back up strong it will be hard to stop....if he catches a lob going to the basket it will be hard to stop....if he backs you down or catches the ball in deep position with his size and length it will be hard to stop him from putting up a quick hook. But none of that makes him ELITE on offense at his position.

 

I've seen a couple of times "he doesn't have the moves, but..." there is no BUT when talking about a low post player. The Duncan thing is right...you can't go off him now, if we are talking about in his prime when he was a top 3 player than yes you have to be able to score on the low block in a variety of ways with power and finesse. He probably is assisted highly now because he isn't the same player, but Howard isn't far removed from being an highly assisted player himself when Nelson actually played an All-Star level and Howard was still learning how to play offense. I admit he has gotten better over the years, much better than when he started but even with that being said he is not an offensive beast or anything of that nature. He is exactly what he has been, a athlete head and shoulders above the rest and uses it to his advantage while throwing in some skill here and there as he grows.

 

The whole Howard having the same impact as KG on defense argument is silly too. Howard is no where near that versatile a defender as KG was. In the paint when he isn't tired Howard can def lock down the paint or at least alter the player's intentions on going to the hole. But KG is an inside force and he could guard multiple positions out on the perimeter which made him hard to play pick and roll against (there is a reason Anthony Davis gets compared to KG). Howard is gifted, but not as gifted as KG and that is fine. Howard is a low post defender who gives your defense a different look, but when those minutes get high he won't be jumping as high or running as hard or moving as fast on switch towards the end of the game like KG used to. Elite defender? Yes in this NBA Howard is the best, but not on a KG level of impact.

 

In the end Howard is a product of an extremely top heavy position. Bynum and Howard are the only two players even in the discussion as top centers. And some people argue for both sides, but I think Howard is the clear-cut better player. Now just because he is the top of that position (with no competition) people tend to try and put him in the Elite categories or rank him sky high. He has the skill to be in the conversation, but the second best player overall? There is just no way he is that good to be under LeBron. Because the Center position is so garbage he looks like a God in the NBA right now and that's understandable, but you have to look past those type of divisions when looking at the big picture of players. KD is better than Howard and that's not really a case right now. They do two different things but at the end of the day you know which one is going to be the guy and who you want to have going into the playoffs...and into the 4th Quarter of the game.

[DonovanMcnabb for H.O.F 2,241]

I understand 56Ace's argument that he is trying to make and I actually agree for the most part. Pure athletic skill and power don't make you a great player and def doesn't make you a great scorer.

 

With the large lack of skill in the PF and C positions in the NBA it is very easy for a physical freak like Dwight Howard to OVERPOWER players as has been mentioned numerous times in this thread. If he grabs a rebound and goes back up strong it will be hard to stop....if he catches a lob going to the basket it will be hard to stop....if he backs you down or catches the ball in deep position with his size and length it will be hard to stop him from putting up a quick hook. But none of that makes him ELITE on offense at his position.

 

How does it not make him elite at his position? If he's scoring among the tops in his position every year, with high efficiency, how does it not make him elite?

 

I've seen a couple of times "he doesn't have the moves, but..." there is no BUT when talking about a low post player. The Duncan thing is right...you can't go off him now, if we are talking about in his prime when he was a top 3 player than yes you have to be able to score on the low block in a variety of ways with power and finesse. He probably is assisted highly now because he isn't the same player, but Howard isn't far removed from being an highly assisted player himself when Nelson actually played an All-Star level and Howard was still learning how to play offense. I admit he has gotten better over the years, much better than when he started but even with that being said he is not an offensive beast or anything of that nature. He is exactly what he has been, a athlete head and shoulders above the rest and uses it to his advantage while throwing in some skill here and there as he grows.

 

You are putting too much stock in having a million arrays of scoring.

 

The whole Howard having the same impact as KG on defense argument is silly too. Howard is no where near that versatile a defender as KG was. In the paint when he isn't tired Howard can def lock down the paint or at least alter the player's intentions on going to the hole. But KG is an inside force and he could guard multiple positions out on the perimeter which made him hard to play pick and roll against (there is a reason Anthony Davis gets compared to KG). Howard is gifted, but not as gifted as KG and that is fine. Howard is a low post defender who gives your defense a different look, but when those minutes get high he won't be jumping as high or running as hard or moving as fast on switch towards the end of the game like KG used to. Elite defender? Yes in this NBA Howard is the best, but not on a KG level of impact.

 

If you don't think that Howard is in the same league as KG in his prime on defense, then you haven't watched him enough. That simple.

 

In the end Howard is a product of an extremely top heavy position. Bynum and Howard are the only two players even in the discussion as top centers. And some people argue for both sides, but I think Howard is the clear-cut better player. Now just because he is the top of that position (with no competition) people tend to try and put him in the Elite categories or rank him sky high. He has the skill to be in the conversation, but the second best player overall? There is just no way he is that good to be under LeBron. Because the Center position is so garbage he looks like a God in the NBA right now and that's understandable, but you have to look past those type of divisions when looking at the big picture of players. KD is better than Howard and that's not really a case right now. They do two different things but at the end of the day you know which one is going to be the guy and who you want to have going into the playoffs...and into the 4th Quarter of the game.

 

The position he plays is irrelevant. Howard is the second best player in the NBA because of his impact on the court. Not where he ranks among his position.

[butta54 371]

-Howard's position is very relevant...how do you figure it's not? The fact is that the center position is piss poor and that allows him to dominate and yes he has a big impact because of that fact. If everyone had a great center what impact would he be making? He is a big fish in a small pond so of course he will give your team an edge because majority of the teams don't have good big men. Which goes to my next point...

 

-You are not caught up enough in having an array of moves. That is the whole point of being Elite. You comparing Duncan and Howard is not in the same discussion. The players Duncan had to go against alone makes him better. Competition breeds greatness...stop and think why Jordan was/is the greatest because of the gambit of stars he had to face. This league is trash as far as talent level so yes you can get away with being physically gifted like Howard...but that doesn't make you an Elite offense player. If you put him up against actually competition that stuff doesn't cut it and you watch any of the big men during the Jordan era and realize why they had to perfect their craft because they went against A-game every night. Howard has to look ahead at Bynum and who else? Hibbert? Gasol? Those guys aren't competition and he isn't playing them regularly so in this day and age maybe what he does is considered Elite, but not in the sense of the game of basketball his offensive skills are not Elite.

 

-And you really can't make the KG argument. Please tell me what NBA fan hasn't seen Howard play a good amount since he has been to the league? That is the one excuse everyone on this site LOVES to use "you haven't seen him enough" I'm sorry but with game replay on NBA TV, playoff games (where it counts) on local channels, and NBA.com I have seen plenty of Howard thank you and if you think he is as versatile as KG then you just don't know basketball. And if you know sports than you know versatility = value and KG's defensive value is above Howard's

[56AceInDaPlace 110]

How does it not make him elite at his position? If he's scoring among the tops in his position every year, with high efficiency, how does it not make him elite?

 

 

 

You are putting too much stock in having a million arrays of scoring.

 

 

 

If you don't think that Howard is in the same league as KG in his prime on defense, then you haven't watched him enough. That simple.

 

 

 

The position he plays is irrelevant. Howard is the second best player in the NBA because of his impact on the court. Not where he ranks among his position.

 

 

No your not putting enough in. If Dwight can only use power moves and doesnt have moves, how is he more skilled set then Tim Duncan, or for this argument KD. KD can do anything anywhere on the court, thats why hes the 2nd best player. Simple answer right there but just bcuz u have a advantage of size and power, using that doesnt make him elite on offense. No matter the production of it. Thats just the ONE way Dwight can score on offense, if he isnt skilled enough to do it other ways to put 30 and 16 on the court like he should. Buttas right, besides Bynum there isnt a center to match Dwights size. It seems your going by just impact and not skill set of a player. If your trying to do a VS contrasting argument, that needs to be in there as wel. Its like u going ok whos better, then take only some sides of the argument and leaving others out. If skill set and more knowledge of basketball moves etc, hwo does that not account into it?

 

Fans watch ESPN , get nonbasketball IQ opinion of basketball. play 2k and go by ratings. Have a totally wrong way to judge a player. Im all for numbers and shit but it doesnt always mean thats how good they are. If a player is one way, but has some success with it, that doesnt make him great on it. Specially when there isnt any bigs in the NBA anymore forreal. Hes average on offense to me for that. Thats basketball knowledge from someone who plays it.

 

BTW im a post player. Thats my spot. I use moves and sometimes power , i beat the defense with anything. Ive played college plays here, tall ones, bigger ones, there hasnt been anyone to hold me from scoring. Bcuz i can spin off, power in, use speed around, or turn around and fadeaway and hit the shot. Now i know it sounds bragging but if you can use every tool on offense, it doesnt matter what defense they play theres ALWAYS a option to go too. You just gotta read the defense. Basketball IQ comes in. Thats how im going from. Its nice that Dwight can power his way in DUE to lack of bigs, ok he can take advantage. But thats not all skill set, and only thing he can do. KD can do so much more for his position and does. Thats why hes better. To me.

[DonovanMcnabb for H.O.F 2,241]

-Howard's position is very relevant...how do you figure it's not? The fact is that the center position is piss poor and that allows him to dominate and yes he has a big impact because of that fact. If everyone had a great center what impact would he be making? He is a big fish in a small pond so of course he will give your team an edge because majority of the teams don't have good big men. Which goes to my next point...

 

-You are not caught up enough in having an array of moves. That is the whole point of being Elite. You comparing Duncan and Howard is not in the same discussion. The players Duncan had to go against alone makes him better. Competition breeds greatness...stop and think why Jordan was/is the greatest because of the gambit of stars he had to face. This league is trash as far as talent level so yes you can get away with being physically gifted like Howard...but that doesn't make you an Elite offense player. If you put him up against actually competition that stuff doesn't cut it and you watch any of the big men during the Jordan era and realize why they had to perfect their craft because they went against A-game every night. Howard has to look ahead at Bynum and who else? Hibbert? Gasol? Those guys aren't competition and he isn't playing them regularly so in this day and age maybe what he does is considered Elite, but not in the sense of the game of basketball his offensive skills are not Elite.

 

Let's look at it this way:

 

If you have two players, who both score 22 points.

 

Player 1 does it with a bigger array of moves in the post. He also needs more shots, and he makes less of his shots.

 

Player 2 does it through having a good post game, grabbing and putting back offensive boards and overpowering his opponents, does it as well while taking less shots and making more of them.

 

Who would you take? The guy who scores a lot of points with more 'moves' and less efficiency? Or the player who scores almost the same amount of points with less post moves and a much better efficiency?

 

Points are points.

 

Regardless of how you score them, as long as you aren't eating up a million possessions and are doing so efficiently, a scorer who makes a 13 foot bank shot, and a player who makes a layup both = 2 points.

 

If anything, a guy who scores a bunch shots makes his shots through being close and overpowering his opponents will draw a lot more attention opening opportunities for his teammates and drawing fouls.

 

-And you really can't make the KG argument. Please tell me what NBA fan hasn't seen Howard play a good amount since he has been to the league? That is the one excuse everyone on this site LOVES to use "you haven't seen him enough" I'm sorry but with game replay on NBA TV, playoff games (where it counts) on local channels, and NBA.com I have seen plenty of Howard thank you and if you think he is as versatile as KG then you just don't know basketball. And if you know sports than you know versatility = value and KG's defensive value is above Howard's

 

If you really have seen Dwight Howard play then I don't understand how you can say he isn't on prime KG's league on defense.

 

I really don't. Especially when you say he isn't versatile.

 

Howard is always near the top of the league in rebounds, blocks and rebounding rate. But if numbers aren't your game and you prefer the 'eye test', the guy can jump out on a pick-and-roll 20 feet from the hoop and recover to the rim in time to block a shot, and if not disrupt the shot and still grab the board. He does this ALL THE TIME. And this is even when the opposing offense makes perfect, quick-hitting passes, he disrupts passing lanes.

 

There is no other player in this league right now, and very few players in the history of the NBA that does what Howard does. Teams literally have to change their offensive game plan against Howard.

 

What parts of KD's game can you say that about?

[DonovanMcnabb for H.O.F 2,241]

BTW im a post player. Thats my spot. I use moves and sometimes power , i beat the defense with anything. Ive played college plays here, tall ones, bigger ones, there hasnt been anyone to hold me from scoring. Bcuz i can spin off, power in, use speed around, or turn around and fadeaway and hit the shot. Now i know it sounds bragging but if you can use every tool on offense, it doesnt matter what defense they play theres ALWAYS a option to go too. You just gotta read the defense. Basketball IQ comes in. Thats how im going from. Its nice that Dwight can power his way in DUE to lack of bigs, ok he can take advantage. But thats not all skill set, and only thing he can do. KD can do so much more for his position and does. Thats why hes better. To me.

 

The old Dwight Howard gets by on just power shit is so fuckin old it's actually starting to piss me off, and I'm not even all that much of a fan of the guy.

 

That stuff got out of style after he started working Kareem. He has developed a post game, not on level of a Aldrige, but he has a post game. His footwork is much improved, and he even has a 15 foot bank shot.

 

And it isn't new for young players to lean on their athleticism when they are young and develop a post game as they get better. It happens all the time.

 

You guys keep talking about having to be great in many different aspects of your game to be in the top 3, but yet KD himself is a one dimensional player. Albeit he is great at what he does, he is still a one dimensional player right now. If he isn't beating you with efficient scoring, what else is he doing?

[butta54 371]

-Your example is not true to life...a post player doesn't mean he is shooting. Look at Boozer when he was actually good in Utah and a better example is Zach Randolph using foot quickness and post moves as far as an up and under or being able to shift position to the rim gets you an easy lay-up or dunk. So those players aren't less efficient. Yes, Duncan was more of a shooter than some, but that isn't all an Elite talent can do. Olajuwon is the PRIME example of what a real post game looks like and he didn't have to shoot that much. Now to your point..2 points is 2 points and I couldn't agree with you more...but this debate comes up in so many sports I will take the skill over the athleticism any day of the week for one simple reason....ATHLETICISM FADES OVER TIME. Yes Howard is effective in the offense (less than he should be at this point), but still a big factor but as age comes that jumping and that speed goes away which is why Duncan is still in the league taking care of business for his age or KG because they have real skill that never leaves if you hone it every year. Until Howard gets to that point is offense is not Elite in basketball, however like I said you can say that in the sense of the current NBA he is a big factor on offense.

 

-To the KG statement...I already broke it down for you so what is not to get? Can Howard go out on the perimeter and guard LeBron? Melo? Kobe? KD? The answer is no if you weren't sure. On a pick and roll in which Howard has to switch on to the point guard driving or a small forward will he be able to stay in front or get a foul called on him? Foul called on him is the right answer. He is NOT as versatile as KG was in his prime. He IS a low post defender as said before but he is not a versatile defender because he won't be stepping outside of the paint to defend and if he does its not effective and leaves a hole in their defense. Even the energy level...in the beginning of the game yes he will be up and down the floor and swatting at every shot but as the game wears on Howard gets real sluggish and won't be throwing every shot he sees. KG's energy is well documented and when he was in his prime....NO STOP in this guy all night long. Now that's an intangible you can't really measure is a guy's heart so I won't lean on that argument. Now to this whole changing your offensive plan because of him? Not anymore they don't! Weaker teams maybe they have to adjust, but the good teams don't run away from Howard anymore they run right at him and yes he will get blocks, but when he starts to slouch or doesn't recover in time you can easily get him in foul trouble. The good teams and the superstars of the league will attack Howard with no fear and he will be a presence, but some nights they get his number. He will leave the game with a good amount of blocks but him having 3 or 4 blocks is fine if he has been on the bench most of the game with fouls. And him contesting shots on the perimeter and going back to get the rebound? Stop it Howard isn't doing that on a consistent bases because the Magic rarely want to see him outside of the paint.

 

-I'm trying to conclude this by saying I'm not dissing Howard or saying he isn't top 5 or maybe 3, just saying he isn't better than Durant. What part of Durant's game forces a team to change gameplans? Try his scoring. The name of the game is scoring points and when you have a threat as dangerous as Durant everything changes from man to zones, rotation of players to get better defenders in, changing the line up to get a better matchup against him, if you put a bigger body on him now you need someone else to take care of Ibaka, getting into foul trouble guarding him cause he gets those calls. The whole game changes when Durant's on the floor and the whole team plays up to his level of leadership so they all become dangerous. SO the point is yes Durant is the better player.

[56AceInDaPlace 110]

Let's look at it this way:

 

If you have two players, who both score 22 points.

 

Player 1 does it with a bigger array of moves in the post. He also needs more shots, and he makes less of his shots.

 

Player 2 does it through having a good post game, grabbing and putting back offensive boards and overpowering his opponents, does it as well while taking less shots and making more of them.

 

Who would you take? The guy who scores a lot of points with more 'moves' and less efficiency? Or the player who scores almost the same amount of points with less post moves and a much better efficiency?

 

Points are points.

 

Regardless of how you score them, as long as you aren't eating up a million possessions and are doing so efficiently, a scorer who makes a 13 foot bank shot, and a player who makes a layup both = 2 points.

 

If anything, a guy who scores a bunch shots makes his shots through being close and overpowering his opponents will draw a lot more attention opening opportunities for his teammates and drawing fouls.

 

 

 

If you really have seen Dwight Howard play then I don't understand how you can say he isn't on prime KG's league on defense.

 

I really don't. Especially when you say he isn't versatile.

 

Howard is always near the top of the league in rebounds, blocks and rebounding rate. But if numbers aren't your game and you prefer the 'eye test', the guy can jump out on a pick-and-roll 20 feet from the hoop and recover to the rim in time to block a shot, and if not disrupt the shot and still grab the board. He does this ALL THE TIME. And this is even when the opposing offense makes perfect, quick-hitting passes, he disrupts passing lanes.

 

There is no other player in this league right now, and very few players in the history of the NBA that does what Howard does. Teams literally have to change their offensive game plan against Howard.

 

What parts of KD's game can you say that about?

 

That comparison is for todays NBA bcuz thats exactly how it is. Player ones are everyone but Dwight, Bynum, Gasol and Alridge. Does that make him better then the rest of league now? for big men yes. But this is where u are wrong. Your ok with someone with average offense skillset, who gets by for lack of big men in the NBA, which isnt Howards fault but u cant ignore that fact. If he had a post game hed be avg'ing more then 22 i know that. Look at it from a job type of view. Dwight is a impact defender, DPOTY type defense, average offense moves. Overpowers alot, post moves limited but effective against the talent in the NBA today. Then u look at KD, for his position, he can rebound , shoot from anywhere, drive from anywhere on floor, dunk in traffic, make clutch shots. Now his D is average, his length is what he uses most. But he faces toughter players at his position then Dwight does at center position. So whos more qualified?

 

It seems the thing u guys cant see if his lack of offense moves. YES it matters. You cant ignore what he cant do. If you leave skill set out of it then why debate whos better at all? Its one of the biggest parts in debating whos better. You cant go by numbers, just cuz of schemes, different types of ways of helping a player on the stat sheet.

 

Your saying its ok for him to just power/use his size, 80% of the time, to get his points. He DOES NOT have a post game, if your pissed off its bcuz u are wrong on that. Yes his foot work has improved, his offense SUCKED before, he went from below average to about average. Still uses his size more then moves. He gets away with it due to lack of bigs in NBA, that is the thing u are ignoring. Theres articles on this shit. Where have the SKILLED Bigs go? Yes he has that lil hook shot, is he consistent with it? .. Ok then. He prob wont have to adjust anytime soon due to no skilled bigs coming in as of late. You guys are only focused on numbers. Or how to aquire thru numbers. % and shit. If u DMac honestly think Dwight has a post game from what u see like the rest of us see, i dont think u understand importance of range or moves or ways to beat a defense. Talent, skill, knowledge has to be used in this debate. This is the last time im saying this lol.

[56AceInDaPlace 110]

Butta has pretty much covered the thing on KD for me which i was gunna post now, so ima just go to the gym now. Ima go around the crew and ask who they think is better from a player view. Ill let you know what they say.