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sweetness34

Preacher's gay rights speech

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Hey guys, been a while... but saw this online today and couldn't resist posting it. Make sure to watch it all the way till the end.

 

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But it is, DMac. I know you're against it, but you have no right to use your Christian beliefs to support the denial of rights to a subset of our society. Church and State are to be separate within our government and you have to set your beliefs aside in this case. They should be able to be married, they should be able to qualify for anything a heterosexual citizen qualifies for. This isn't about Christianity. It's about what's right.

 

I agree with this.

 

Besides, what makes Christianity so above everything that we have to include the beliefs of that religion into our laws?

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But it is, DMac. I know you're against it, but you have no right to use your Christian beliefs to support the denial of rights to a subset of our society. Church and State are to be separate within our government and you have to set your beliefs aside in this case. They should be able to be married, they should be able to qualify for anything a heterosexual citizen qualifies for. This isn't about Christianity. It's about what's right.

 

My view on the subject is irrelevant here.

 

Nowhere during that speech does he mention separation of Church and State, and their is no way that you can tell from that speech (at least I couldn't) that he is trying to imply anything of the sort. The way he sounds, and what he's comparing this to would make it seem as though he is trying to persuade people, specifically Christians that they should be in favor of gay rights.

 

And if that's the case, and he's really trying to use the example of segregation to back that up, its completely wrong. The two cases are not even remotely close to the same thing.

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They are close to the same thing, sadly because Christians used the Bible to try to argue for the segregation of races, something that is nowhere to be found in there. So despite the fact that there are passages showing that homosexuality is wrong, to the secular world they heard the same thing back in the '60s about segregation. It's the exact same reasoning and wording being used in both cases. So since those Christians were completely (and morally, I might add) wrong about segregation, why trust them on this issue? Christianity has, metaphorically speaking, shot itself in the foot. Not to mention using the Bible to ban or not ban *anything*, if it is based on the Bible alone, is a violation of the 1st amendment.

 

He is not implying anything about Christians being in support of gay rights, he is talking to a city council on whether they should pass a law banning discrimination against GLBT individuals. This isn't even about letting them marry, as such a thing is beyond the city council's powers, this is merely a hearing on an anti-discrimination law.

 

Do you truly believe people should be allowed to discriminate against others because they are gay or lesbian, solely because the Bible says homosexuality is a sin? Where does it stop, Dmac? What happens when a politician takes other Scripture and starts using them to apply laws? You really trust the government to correctly interpret the Bible and use it to make laws? I sure as hell don't.

 

My bad then, disregard what I said. I was under the assumption that since he used the example of what preachers used to say... And only Christian for the most part listen to preachers, and he ties it all in with the "don't be on the wrong side of history" line, he was talking to mostly Christians.

 

But my opinion hasn't changed on the last paragraph, at least from the last time we had this discussion.

Edited by DonovanMcnabb for H.O.F

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My bad then, disregard what I said. I was under the assumption that since he used the example of what preachers used to say... And only Christian for the most part listen to preachers, and he ties it all in with the "don't be on the wrong side of history" line, he was talking to mostly Christians.

 

But my opinion hasn't changed on the last paragraph, at least from the last time we had this discussion.

 

No, he wasn't just talking to Christians. There were plenty of people that were for segregation for other-than-biblical reasons, and regardless of your reasons for being so, saying that we should discriminate against a certain group of people because of anything that is beyond their control is asinine.

 

Plenty of non-Christians listen to preachers. They have reverends on the news all the time discussing certain issues.

 

So you do think the government should allow people to discriminate against gays and lesbians?

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No, he wasn't just talking to Christians. There were plenty of people that were for segregation for other-than-biblical reasons, and regardless of your reasons for being so, saying that we should discriminate against a certain group of people because of anything that is beyond their control is asinine.

 

Plenty of non-Christians listen to preachers. They have reverends on the news all the time discussing certain issues.

 

So you do think the government should allow people to discriminate against gays and lesbians?

 

It depends. If you are asking me if they should have the same rights and privileges as a straight couple? No sir. If I had to vote on this, I'd vote against it every time, based on my religion.

 

All my beliefs are based on my religion, which is why I stay away from politics, I'd hate to enforce my religion on others. The way I see it, as a Christian, it makes more sense to not saying anything at all, then speak out on something you are supposed to be completely against, at least imo.

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DMac, I believe you've stated that you have openly gay friends, but I have never found a single person who didn't support gay rights who wasn't homophobic in any sense of the word. Would it be fair to say that this is true, in your case? Is it such a foreign concept that it frightens you?

 

Just curious, not judging, because I think most of us were probably homophobic at some point in our lives.

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How is that not a violation of the Constitution?

 

If you're voting solely based on your religion, that is a clear violation of the 1st amendment. I just don't get how you can reconcile this. The Bible says to obey the powers that are in authority. It also says to obey God rather than man- the context is pretty clear, obey the governing authorities unless they *tell you to do something that would result in your sin.* In what universe is two gay people marrying going to make you sin?

 

Its the fact that as an individual, I'd be supporting the act of a sin. That's really all there is to it. If we as Christians are not supposed to sin, and we are supposed to look down on sin, then how much sense does it make for us to support others sinning?

 

The Bible is very clear on the fact that as Christians, as you aim to correct your own ways, you should do the same to others, and as you aim to rebuke your own sins, you should rebuke those of others, in the hope of, essentially, saving their lives, which goes in accordance with the great commission. As a Christian, their is absolutely no way that I could ever support something that the Bible is clearly against, especially to further allow it to grow and prosper. I just can't, doesn't matter if its on my life or if its on someone else's, God holds people accountable who know and don't act on their knowledge.

 

And concerning the bit about the Government, the Bible is clear that the people should only follow the laws of the government as long as it doesn't contradict with that of the Bible. Because God before anyone else is what matters most. In Acts 5 the Disciples were given strict orders by The Sanhedrin, to not preach the word, or they'd be sent to jail, they were sent to jail for preaching, and an Angel came down and told them to go back and do exactly what The Sanhedrin told them not to do.

 

So can you explain where exactly from Scripture you get the idea that the government should enforce Christianity's morality as the law of the land? Christianity is all about winning the hearts of the people- fighting from the ground up. Using the government to enforce your belief system is what extremist regimes like the one in Iran use. It is not something a civilized country or a civilized people, regardless of what religion they are, should be using.

 

Nowhere in the Bible does it say the government should enforce Christian morals (at least not that I know), but as a Christian I am tied to those morals, and should support them whenever the opportunity presents itself.

 

God sent regions to go and destroy entire cities because they had fallen out of whack with his laws, and were anti Christian or too unGodly. I HATE the idea of forcing my religion on others, which once again, is the reason I stay away from politics most of the time. But if I do get involved religion HAS to take first priority, because at the end of the day, pleasing him first is the only thing that matters.

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DMac, I believe you've stated that you have openly gay friends, but I have never found a single person who didn't support gay rights who wasn't homophobic in any sense of the word. Would it be fair to say that this is true, in your case? Is it such a foreign concept that it frightens you?

 

Just curious, not judging, because I think most of us were probably homophobic at some point in our lives.

 

It has nothing to do with me possibly having some kinda phobia, I was in a locker room in high school where we all did things around each other that may or may not be borderline gay. I'd be lying out of my behind if I said I wouldn't get a hard on from watching two (good looking) girls making out. Its a sin though, and it's something that I can't support.

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It has nothing to do with me possibly having some kinda phobia, I was in a locker room in high school where we all did things around each other that may or may not be borderline gay. I'd be lying out of my behind if I said I wouldn't get a hard on from watching two (good looking) girls making out. Its a sin though, and it's something that I can't support.

 

That's the line you need to draw in your argument, then. You can't openly oppose their right to do that within our country because it's unconstitutional to not give these rights to homosexuals. You can oppose the practice, but to stay in accord with our Constitution you have to support their right to have equal rights. This isn't about God or Christianity. That has nothing to do with the issue.

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Its the fact that as an individual, I'd be supporting the act of a sin. That's really all there is to it. If we as Christians are not supposed to sin, and we are supposed to look down on sin, then how much sense does it make for us to support others sinning?

 

The Bible is very clear on the fact that as Christians, as you aim to correct your own ways, you should do the same to others, and as you aim to rebuke your own sins, you should rebuke those of others, in the hope of, essentially, saving their lives, which goes in accordance with the great commission. As a Christian, their is absolutely no way that I could ever support something that the Bible is clearly against, especially to further allow it to grow and prosper. I just can't, doesn't matter if its on my life or if its on someone else's, God holds people accountable who know and don't act on their knowledge.

 

And concerning the bit about the Government, the Bible is clear that the people should only follow the laws of the government as long as it doesn't contradict with that of the Bible. Because God before anyone else is what matters most. In Acts 5 the Disciples were given strict orders by The Sanhedrin, to not preach the word, or they'd be sent to jail, they were sent to jail for preaching, and an Angel came down and told them to go back and do exactly what The Sanhedrin told them not to do.

 

Nowhere in the Bible does it say the government should enforce Christian morals (at least not that I know), but as a Christian I am tied to those morals, and should support them whenever the opportunity presents itself.

 

God sent regions to go and destroy entire cities because they had fallen out of whack with his laws, and were anti Christian or too unGodly. I HATE the idea of forcing my religion on others, which once again, is the reason I stay away from politics most of the time. But if I do get involved religion HAS to take first priority, because at the end of the day, pleasing him first is the only thing that matters.

 

I understand your position at least.

 

I respectfully disagree, because of the possible consequences that would stem from this view were everyone to follow it, but I can understand it.

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I understand your position at least.

 

I respectfully disagree, because of the possible consequences that would stem from this view were everyone to follow it, but I can understand it.

 

I don't get to judge others and tell them that they're wrong, which is where DMac and I disagree. Thinking I can correct somebody else is pride, to me, and if I can't spread the word of God without partaking in one of the Cardinal sins, then I'll just hope that my enthusiasm and influence will do the job for me. I feel like many people forget that part. We have no right to judge others; that is God's job. In order to save souls as individuals, we need to inspire others with our faith, not try to tell them they're wrong when we're so wrong, ourselves.

 

If that makes any sense. It does to me, anyway.

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That's the line you need to draw in your argument, then. You can't openly oppose their right to do that within our country because it's unconstitutional to not give these rights to homosexuals. You can oppose the practice, but to stay in accord with our Constitution you have to support their right to have equal rights. This isn't about God or Christianity. That has nothing to do with the issue.

 

IDK, I keep it pretty simple... Is what I am supporting or agreeing with OK in the Bible?

 

If the answer's no. Then that's where I draw the line. At least that's where I try to draw the line...

 

I don't get to judge others and tell them that they're wrong, which is where DMac and I disagree. Thinking I can correct somebody else is pride, to me, and if I can't spread the word of God without partaking in one of the Cardinal sins, then I'll just hope that my enthusiasm and influence will do the job for me. I feel like many people forget that part. We have no right to judge others; that is God's job. In order to save souls as individuals, we need to inspire others with our faith, not try to tell them they're wrong when we're so wrong, ourselves.

 

If that makes any sense. It does to me, anyway.

 

This is kinda where I guess opinions get separated.

 

As far as I've been taught, judging and correcting/rebuking someone isn't the same thing, and there's a fine line between the two. We all aren't taught the same, and I respect that.

 

I do wrong as much, if not more then the next guy, and I repent for it, I would never think less of a person because of their actions. But making someone aware of the fact they are sinning when they are unaware (or choosing to ignore it) and expecting them to do the same to you is encouraged in the Bible and it only makes both parties better for it (or at least that should be the intentions).

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You don't have to support what gay people do, but you have no right to tell them what they can or can't do just because you don't believe in it. I'm not singling out D-mac or Christians in particular either, it just doesn't make sense that governments won't allow it because they don't believe in it.

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I'm not sure if you're just being funny there, SN, but that sentiment is rather offensive. Not to mention arrogant. There are plenty of reasonable religious people, just as there are plenty of reasonable non-religious people. There are also arrogant a-holes on both sides who believe the other side is full of raving lunatics.

 

Oh please, it was in jest. I was raised a Jehovah's Witness and force fed the BS for 17 years. I also don't care what religion you are, to read a book and not allow some one to get married just cause your little book says "that's bad" is wrong. The bible also approved of slavery. You can tell me that was OT or w/e all you want but it doesn't change the fact.

 

You're just picking and choosing which of "gods" rules to follow just to suit your own needs.

 

EDIT: I'm sure some of you also read the story about the little girl being shot in the head just because she wanted to go to school, bravo religion.

Edited by SteelersNation36

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DMac's reasoning was very well thought out. I don't necessarily agree with it in terms of governmental policy but I'm happy to understand where he's coming from a little more clearly. +1.

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