Fiscal Cliff -O- Rama!!

[Guest Phailadelphia]

I really don't want to go off the fiscal cliff considering we'll hit the trough of the recession as I graduate college.

 

I can understand Obama's frustration and I think he's right. The Tea Party wave from 2010 has brought in a bunch of hard-line Republicans who absolutely refuse to negotiate with Democrats in pretty much any manner. Boehner could have gotten a deal done in 2011 and he could have gotten one done earlier this month but both would have required help from Democrat votes. Instead, he's introducing his own bills that Obama has already promised he would veto, so why would Dems vote for them? Furthermore, they include tax increases so Republicans wouldn't vote for them either, begging the question why in the hell did he introduce them to begin with? The only theory I can come up with is he was trying to fabricate some kind of leverage with the American people and take that leverage to the President in fiscal cliff negotiations. Instead, he made himself look like a rodeo clown.

 

Moreover, Republicans that open themselves up to compromise with Democrats risk being replaced in the primaries by even further right Republicans. That's one of the biggest problems Boehner faces as Speaker - his colleagues won't compromise their beliefs because they'll be replaced.

 

OTOH, Congressional Dems celebrating the death of Plan B was silly. Obama seems to be the only one genuinely interested in avoiding disaster and getting a deal done as opposed to playing politics or play the PR game.

Edited December 23, 2012 by Phailadelphia

[SteVo+ 3,702]

Phail, I think you make some great points about the division within the Republican Party, so let me ask you this...

 

If we go over the fiscal cliff, and the public's consensus is that Republicans share more blame than Democrats and/or the President, do you think this could be the beginning of the end of the Republican Party? They're in bad shape already; this year's election was a bad one for them.

[Guest Phailadelphia]

Phail, I think you make some great points about the division within the Republican Party, so let me ask you this...

 

If we go over the fiscal cliff, and the public's consensus is that Republicans share more blame than Democrats and/or the President, do you think this could be the beginning of the end of the Republican Party? They're in bad shape already; this year's election was a bad one for them.

 

I had a long, raging rant at the GOP here but that's probably not necessary.

 

In an alternate reality where the GOP hadn't for decades labeled liberals and Democrats as commies, socialists, whatever other anti-American bullshit you can come up with then yeah, the GOP would be on their way out. Unfortunately we don't live in that alternate reality.

 

I would say yes it's the beginning of the end for them but they've worked the system. Democrats actually received a higher net total House vote in 2012 but didn't gain the seats due to gerrymandering. We SHOULD have a Democratic majority in the House right now. And although they know they gerrymandered themselves into a majority, Boehner and company still believe they were re-elected with a "mandate" to continue on their current path despite the fact their presidential candidate got pummeled in the election. So you'll get a GOP House for at least another 8 years. Enjoy.

 

As far as presidential elections go, who knows? Obama won re-election by a landslide and did it with the minority vote. I think we're at the point now where you won't win President by coasting on the white vote as the GOP has tried the last 2 years.

 

So I don't know. It really depends on where the GOP goes from here imo. They have a lot of work to do, both on their internal divisions and on the message they're broadcasting outward. The Tea Party hard-liners are going to make it difficult to change anything, which I'm totally Ok with.

Edited December 23, 2012 by Phailadelphia

[SteVo+ 3,702]

So Republicans are just stubborn about raising taxes on the rich because they're representing their rich, Republican constituents who don't want their taxes to go up, right?

 

Wrong.

 

American Express Publishing and The Harrison Group found that 67 percent of the top one percent of American earners support higher income taxes. Their support has grown since the election. This summer, 62 percent of them supported higher taxes.

 

"There is an absolute willingness for the vast majority of the One Percent to take a tax increase," said Jim Taylor, Vice Chairman Harrison Group. "What the Republicans think is not necessarily what their constituents think."

 

http://finance.yahoo.com/news/majority-rich-want-themselves-taxed-193437266.html

[Omerta+ 1,206]

As far as presidential elections go, who knows? Obama won re-election by a landslide and did it with the minority vote. I think we're at the point now where you won't win President by coasting on the white vote as the GOP has tried the last 2 years.

 

See I have heard this over and over and is something that I disagree strongly with.

 

I think having the white vote now has been something that has been irrelevant for a long time. Especially in this economy because the majority of white people are just as broke as anyone else. They have seen times of prosper only to be dashed by greed and antiquated party beliefs by the republicans. I think this has led to a true turnover that now thanks to this mutual suffering people are realizing that rich white guys are just as apt to screw people as anybody.

 

I am glad for the recession in a sense because it has shown voters that voting just because of race or any other advancement do to bias or discrimination will cost them. WE are now voting more united than we ever have been before and the only thing to point to is the recession has given us a common bond through a common enemy, and for once I am glad about it.

 

The part that is hanging us up is how we are going to get there. I can live with this because at least it is a debate about philosophies you are using a reasoned discourse and a train of thought that can be pinioned by reasoning.

 

It is well documented that I hate both parties. I think that both parties are demonizing a class and saying that it will help the middle class but neither focus on them. The Republicans are saying that poor people are trying to just use a free ride handed out by Democrats (which I in part agree with). Then you have the Democrats saying that rich people are then ones that are hurting the economy because of the tax breaks therefore should be taxed to a higher degree.(which I in part agree with)

 

It is my personal belief that the country is being crippled by both parties by use of the electoral college. I believe the electoral college has outlived its usefulness and is now the biggest political evil next to greed.

 

I think that both parties are receiving a good amount of minority votes, the strong roman catholic hispanic population have a habit of voting Republican. I think now though that they as well as the rest of the country that party politics on both sides is the just pure futility.

[ATL_Predator+ 1,196]

Someone please explain to me what this is. The news sucks at explaining without spewing fear out of their mangina's.

[SteVo+ 3,702]

Someone please explain to me what this is. The news sucks at explaining without spewing fear out of their mangina's.

 

The tl;dr version is that during the first term of the Bush administration, Congress reduced tax rates across the board. Those tax decreases are set to expire at the end of this year. In order words, unless Congress extends them, everybody's taxes go up for next year.

[Omerta+ 1,206]

You know the more I think about it the more I want to go off the fiscal cliff.

[Guest Phailadelphia]

The tl;dr version is that during the first term of the Bush administration, Congress reduced tax rates across the board. Those tax decreases are set to expire at the end of this year. In order words, unless Congress extends them, everybody's taxes go up for next year.

 

Pretty much this, but it also includes massive spending cuts to the federal budget. Several people are going to tell you that's a good thing. Those people are probably idiots.

 

It looks more and more like no deal will get done. You can expect a recession of sorts after the sequester triggers. Unemployment will most likely reach the 9-10% range (again) and the economy will sink quite a bit.

 

I would expect Obama to push for tax cuts for those making less than $250k when Congress re-convenes in January. Who's going to say no?

[Omerta+ 1,206]

Pretty much this, but it also includes massive spending cuts to the federal budget. Several people are going to tell you that's a good thing. Those people are probably idiots.

 

How is that bad ? It is going to have to get worse before it gets better and we might as well bite the bullet now.

[Guest Phailadelphia]

How is that bad ? It is going to have to get worse before it gets better and we might as well bite the bullet now.

 

It doesn't have to get worse before it gets better. They just need to compromise.

[Omerta+ 1,206]

It doesn't have to get worse before it gets better. They just need to compromise.

 

See I have thought about this all day which thank you for providing the segway into it.

 

I think it does have to get worse to get better. The reason I say that is because everytime I have depended on Republicans and Democrats to put their differences aside to help the people, they have failed in flying colors. I have no reason to believe this will be any different and that either give a damn about the people they represent. I am not willing to put my faith in a house that is so clearly divided so anything to take it out of their hands is a plus imo.

 

The second caveat to this is that I am tired of the US tryint to use this please everyone approach and come up with some half ass plan to help us that we have to wait ten years to see that it was a bad idea. I would just rather suck for 4 years and know that we are going to cut our budget in half in the near future. At least that way we have a goal to look forward and once we get there we can actually worry about maintaining instead of cleaning up, catching up, maintiaining and relying on congress not to fuck it up.

 

I just want to get this over with and I really dont care if I or anybody else has to suffer. WE got ourselves here no we should all tighten the belt and see this thing out imo.

[Guest Phailadelphia]

I understand what you're saying, I just think the same end result can be achieved via negotiation and compromise. Doesn't seem enough representative are interested in that though.

 

Edit: Also, I'm going to be entering the job market in April/May next year. A recession would not be ideal for my job prospects.

Edited December 27, 2012 by Phailadelphia

[SteVo+ 3,702]

Edit: Also, I'm going to be entering the job market in April/May next year. A recession would not be ideal for my job prospects.

 

How "recession-proof" is the field you hope to enter?

[Guest Phailadelphia]

How "recession-proof" is the field you hope to enter?

 

My options are pretty wide so really I'm not sure. I can go into public policy or I can go into economics, or some kind of mixture of the two.

[SteVo+ 3,702]

My options are pretty wide so really I'm not sure. I can go into public policy or I can go into economics, or some kind of mixture of the two.

 

Good to hear. If you can promote yourself to multiple areas and you're willing to move, you should find a job. I'm somewhat fortunate because math teachers are usually in high demand, so hopefully I can get a job this summer/fall whether we go over the cliff or not.

 

Edit: Sen. Harry Reid says we're going over the cliff, and had some pretty strong things to say about Speaker Boehner.

 

WASHINGTON (AP) — Progress toward avoiding the "fiscal cliff" seemed stalled Thursday, as the Senate's top Democrat accused Republican House Speaker John Boehner of acting in dictatorial ways that prevent a solution to looming tax hikes and spending cuts.

 

Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid, speaking in the Senate chamber, said the nation appears headed over the cliff because of a lack of progress in negotiations as the Dec. 31 deadline nears. He blamed House Republicans, who last week opposed Boehner's efforts to pass a narrowly crafted bill that would raise tax rates only on the very wealthiest Americans, prompting Boehner to cancel a vote on the bill.

 

Reid said the House is "being operated with a dictatorship of the speaker."

 

"John Boehner seems to care more about keeping his speakership than about keeping the nation on sound financial footing," Reid said.

 

More: http://news.yahoo.com/no-deal-sight-deadline-fiscal-deal-nears-082405286.html

Edited December 27, 2012 by SteVo

[Omerta+ 1,206]

I understand what you're saying, I just think the same end result can be achieved via negotiation and compromise. Doesn't seem enough representative are interested in that though.

 

Edit: Also, I'm going to be entering the job market in April/May next year. A recession would not be ideal for my job prospects.

 

Exactly. That is what I am getting at. I am certain it IS possible....with a different form of government/congress. I have ZERO confidence in this congress to get ANYTHING done that benefits us especially if it calls for bipartisan negotiations.

 

And being honest I really feel that going off the cliff would be good for us. Not in the short term but in the long run. If we do go over in 4 years you should not have to worry about a crooked ass senate/speaker/lobbyist ruining things for you. We will have cut it in half and allow ourselves time to think of a good and feasible LONG TERM solution that would help us get the rest of the way.

 

I am well aware it would hurt a lot of people in the short term and that is regrettable. However I really think this is best for the long term and not just for the above reason. The other one just kind of rolled around for a while until I seriously thought about it today.

 

Can you imagine if this does happen what is going to happen to peoples wallets? Of course you do because you have admitted it is a concern already. If I have learned one truth in this life it is that if you want to unite people give them a common enemy/problem. If congress lets their jackassery fuck the whole country not a damn one of them is safe and we are probably going ot be looking at a huge turnover in congress. I for one would think that is the greatest news I have heard in a long time. I think it would also make people more aware because they would make the recession that much tougher and would encourage voter turn out not just for the president but for congress to. They would probably also have more questions so they can avoid another cliff situation altogether. I think it would bring accountability up across the board imo.

 

Either way it goes though good luck on the job searches.

Edited December 27, 2012 by Ngata_Chance

[OSUViking 505]

Imagine the political debates.

 

"The Republicans sent us over the cliff!"

 

"No! The Democrats sent us over the cliff!"

 

"Wait... can't we agree both of our parties sent us over the cliff?"

 

"I suppose so..."

 

... At least they will finally compromise.

[Sarge+ 3,436]

Fuck these assholes.

[OSUViking 505]

I think this will give me the chance I need to project the Tits and Ass Party onto the national stage.

[Sarge+ 3,436]

Yea, we'll all be poor by this time next year, but by God, at least we should have Tits and Ass.

[OSUViking 505]

Tits and Ass 2016!

[Guest Phailadelphia]

Welp it's December 31st. If you guys are looking for updates on what's going on today, this is it in a nutshell:

 

Both sides are working on an agreement and were close. Obama noted in a presser that there are tax hikes in the bill. Now the GOP is angry he basically called them out and are threatening to blow the whole thing up because their feelings are hurt.

 

This is what US politics has come to.

[ATL_Predator+ 1,196]

Looks like I'll have to become a male stripper to survive if this deal can't get done.

[CARDINAL 205]

Welp it's December 31st. If you guys are looking for updates on what's going on today, this is it in a nutshell:

 

Both sides are working on an agreement and were close. Obama noted in a presser that there are tax hikes in the bill. Now the GOP is angry he basically called them out and are threatening to blow the whole thing up because their feelings are hurt.

 

This is what US politics has come to.

 

Taylor, what would you like to see in the final bill that they eventually pass?