Defensive Rookie of the Year

[Dutch 874]

Definitely close and could have easily went either way. Luke 1A Lavonte 1A and Wagner 1B

[RazorStar 4,025]

The final totals were:

Kuechly 28

Wagner 11

Heyward 6

Janoris Jenkins 3

Lavonte David 2

[Thanatos 2,847]

David did get some love, got a couple votes.

 

What probably ultimately pushed Luke over the top was the improvement in Carolina's defense. Panthers had the #10 defense in the league up from 28th last year, the Bucs were in the low-20's I think.

 

As I said before, I thought Luke should win it, but if David or Hayward got it, I'd be fine with that.

Edited February 3, 2013 by Thanatos19

[Milla4Prez63 678]

David did get some love, got a couple votes.

 

What probably ultimately pushed Luke over the top was the improvement in Carolina's defense. Panthers had the #10 defense in the league up from 28th last year, the Bucs were in the low-20's I think.

 

As I said before, I thought Luke should win it, but if David or Hayward got it, I'd be fine with that.

 

He had a huge role in the Bucs' #1 run defense though.

 

I think he at least deserved more votes than Jenkins, and I think he is better than Wagner too honestly. But I won't get up in arms over this award. I just hope David keeps improving and becomes a force year in and year out.

[Thanatos 2,847]

A lot of people questioned whether the Bucs #1 run defense was inflated by the fact that they had the worst pass defense.

 

Basically, why would teams try to run on the Bucs when they had a solid run D, when they can just pass at will?

 

They both had fantastic years, several defensive rookies did. Can't really go wrong picking one, and both should become great players, provided they stay healthy.

Edited February 3, 2013 by Thanatos19

[Milla4Prez63 678]

A lot of people questioned whether the Bucs #1 run defense was inflated by the fact that they had the worst pass defense.

 

Basically, why would teams try to run on the Bucs when they had a solid run D, when they can just pass at will?

 

They both had fantastic years, several defensive rookies did. Can't really go wrong picking one, and both should become great players, provided they stay healthy.

 

That is just too simplistic of an argument for me. Sure teams passed more because our secondary was terrible, but we shut the run down when teams tried. We allowed a league best 3.5 ypc to our opponents and gave up the least amount of yards by a good amount. This is after having a pathetic run defense for like the past 5 years, so it isn't like David walked on to a stout run defense lol. He and Gerald McCoy pretty much are the reasons for the massive turnaround there. I'm not saying ZOMG HE SHOULDVE WON, but his TFL numbers are insane and his tackle numbers are just as good, if not better than Kuechly and Wagner. I think he deserved more than 2 votes, but he is getting kind of a bum rap for the horrible secondary dragging our defense down like a massive anchor.

[Thanatos 2,847]

Im not saying I agree with the argument, but I did hear it a lot.

[Piggly Wiggly 960]

This was Chandler Jones' award until he injured his ankle against the Colts.

[Thanatos 2,847]

I doubt it. It was Kuechly's as soon as he took over at the MLB spot in the media's eyes. Tackles are an inflated stat, and leading the league in tackles would have given it to him unless Jones absolutely went off.

[Kayoh 1]

lavonte david isn't tampa's middle linebacker, he's their weakside backer.

 

That being said, Hayward deserved this way more than Kuechly did

[AllYouNeedIsLovie 377]

I think Hayward and David deserved it over Kuechly, but whatever.

 

Congrats to Luke.

[Favre4Ever+ 4,476]

Ya. Honestly.. I still think it should have been Hayward (maybe a bit homer). But I probably go David and Wagner as well.

 

Kind of disappointing that total tackles as so much influence in the mind of a voter. Truly a sham, but it's how it is done now, I guess.

[Thanatos 2,847]

A sham? Really? Come on, man. What Luke did was phenomenal. No way on earth does David or Wagner deserve it a lot more than him, all 3 of them were great. The improvement in the entire Carolina defense was obvious down the stretch, Kuechly's leadership as a rookie was pretty damn great.

 

Hayward would be an entirely different argument because its a totally different position.

 

You might think someone else deserved it a bit more, but it's far from a sham to give it to the rookie who turned the Panthers defense around and led the entire NFL in tackles.

Edited February 4, 2013 by Thanatos19

[Favre4Ever+ 4,476]

Okay, okay, sham is a bit of an over exaggeration. I looked into some stats to see what you were talking about.

 

Seattle went from 9th to 4th in total defense (yards) +5

Seattle went from 7th in scoring defense to 1st +6

-----

+11

 

Tampa Bay went from 30th in total defense 29th(yards) +1

Tampa Bay went from 32nd in scoring defense to 23rd +8

-----

+9

 

Carolina went from 28th in total defense to 10th +18

Carolina went from 27th in scoring D to 18th +9

-----

+27

 

Green Bay went from 32nd in total D to 11th +21

Green Bay went from 19th to 11th in scoring D +8

-----

+29

 

 

From this ALONE, not taking into consideration individual play yet (so not my official ballot).. I would go...

 

1. Wagner

2. Hayward

3. Kuechly

4. David

 

Wagner is first, even with the 3rd highest gain because I contest it is a lot harder to move up from within the Top 10 already, much less to 1st and 4th overall, than it is to move up from the high 20s and low 30s.

 

Now.. to grade individual performance... Just talking about their play, not factoring in their impact and intangibles so much. I will go to PFF. I am not always sold on their actual grading, but not sure how else to do this talking about 3 different positions.

 

Qualifying players are those who played 50% of the D snaps.

 

1. Hayward - +23.1 (3/71 CB)

2. Wagner - +16.3 (2/35 ILB)

3. Kuechly - +11.2 (7/35 ILB)

4. David - +10.2 (5/26 43 OLB)

 

Now as far as all the intangibles and their TRUE impact to their team? I can't fully speak from any of the other players. I could say a little about each probably, but nothing that would justify their play.

 

So... I will speak on Hayward's behalf.

 

The Packers lost guys like Sam Shields (#2 CB), Charles Woodson (#1 FS), Desmond Bishop (#1ILB), DJ Smith (#2 ILB), and Clay Matthews (#1 OLB) for significant amounts of time.

 

The constant in a secondary that was missing half of its starters for over half the season? 2nd round pick Casey Hayward who play on both the outside and inside as arguably the most shut down corner in the league this year... Allowing only 44% of passes thrown at him to be completed (2nd in the NFL) while being one of 5 CBs to not give up a TD this season and consequently having the best Passer Rating against in the league and then hauling in 6 picks (4th in the league) on top of that...

 

His duties in the slot were, simply put, to be Charles Woodson... As a rookie! His instincts and ability to be around the football were bar none the best on the team. He got into the backfield and blew up his fair number of plays, throwing his body around and being a sure tackler in the process.

 

He allowed less than a yard per snap that he was out there, which is made all the more impressive being that teams went after him. They wanted to try and abuse the rookie, but just couldn't with him allowing just 1 catch every 6 pass plays against.

 

I sure hope he can replicate a season like this. It won't be easy.

 

My final ballot

 

1. Casey Hayward

2. Bobby Wagner

3. Anyone Else.

 

Kuechly won being the highest draft pick with the biggest name at the position of which has the opportunity to accumulate stats, which leads to a much more coveted and watched position.

Edited February 4, 2013 by Favre4Ever

[DonovanMcnabb for H.O.F 2,241]

lavonte david isn't tampa's middle linebacker, he's their weakside backer.

 

That being said, Hayward deserved this way more than Kuechly did

 

No...

 

Edit: I'd absolutely love to hear your reasoning for this.

Edited February 4, 2013 by DonovanMcnabb for H.O.F

[Favre4Ever+ 4,476]

Got anything else to add there Dmac? Maybe... something substantial?

[DonovanMcnabb for H.O.F 2,241]

He led the NFL in tackles with as many missed tackles as some of the best LBs in the NFL. He made a ton of plays around the LOS. He was a great leader making the switch from OLB to ILB and the defense improved drastically when Luke was moved from WLB to ILB to replace the hurt Beason.

 

David made more plays behind the LOS, but David was nowhere near as consistent. Hayward was great in his own right, but in comparison to Luke, he didn't make as much impact, and both put up great numbers so he's not any more deserving then Luke.

 

I have very little argument for Wagner, again, Wagner to me was as deserving of winning it to Luke, and was my second choice anyway.

[Favre4Ever+ 4,476]

ILB though is where everyone agreed he was best fit naturally. Just because he got dominated on the outside, moved inside to where he should have been all along... doesn't in itself mean he is a great leader.

 

And you said nothing about Hayward, which is what I asked you in the first place.

[DonovanMcnabb for H.O.F 2,241]

But it does mean he can play a far bigger impact on his defense's overall success. Which was my point.

 

Hayward's numbers were impressive, but a corner putting up great cover numbers, and looking great in coverage is no better then an ILB putting up great numbers, and looking great against the run. But one guy had a bigger success in his defense's success compared to the other, at least imo. And that's Luke.

[Favre4Ever+ 4,476]

But it does mean he can play a far bigger impact on his defense's overall success. Which was my point.

 

Hayward's numbers were impressive, but a corner putting up great cover numbers, and looking great in coverage is no better then an ILB putting up great numbers, and looking great against the run. But one guy had a bigger success in his defense's success compared to the other, at least imo. And that's Luke.

 

What makes you say that exactly?

 

Last season, the Packers had the worst pass defense the league has ever seen. The corners werent all the problem , naturally. But we still had no pass rush, we still came out in the same formations and packages we always have under Dom.. A few players changed, that's it.

 

Casey lined up in that secondary with Morgan Burnett who is a good player, but very blah in coverage, Jerron who is a fellow rookie, and Tramon Williams who actually regressed. Yet the pass D still went from worst in the history of the league to 11th. Mostly all on the back of Casey Hayward.

 

And it really isn't the same thing being that corners don't rack up volume stats like LBs do. That's why these LB who accumulate vast numbers are put straight to the top of these things. Not because they are a batter player, but because they have more to judge from which people assume means he is the best player.

 

By that theory, Matthew Stafford is a Top 3 QB in the NFL, and I think we can both agree that that is completely laughable.

 

Unless you have say a 34 OLB or 43 DE who can destroy the stat accumulator LBs with super flashy stats like 15 sacks or for DBs 10 picks... It isn't even close to being a fair race between the two.

 

Casey was, indeed, the best all around defensive rookie from 2012. You can make an argument for Wagner, IMO as well. And if all Casey was was a shut down corner I might be tempted to pick Wagner. But he stops the run, doesn't give up scores, makes plays behind the LoS, doesn't commit penalties... Best rookie on D this year.

 

Just ask Matthew Stafford who went 4/14 for 29 yards, no TD, an INT, and 4 PDEF against Hayward.

Edited February 4, 2013 by Favre4Ever

[DonovanMcnabb for H.O.F 2,241]

What makes you say that exactly?

 

Last season, the Packers had the worst pass defense the league has ever seen. The corners werent all the problem , naturally. But we still had no pass rush, we still came out in the same formations and packages we always have under Dom.. A few players changed, that's it.

 

Casey lined up in that secondary with Morgan Burnett who is a good player, but very blah in coverage, Jerron who is a fellow rookie, and Tramon Williams who actually regressed. Yet the pass D still went from worst in the history of the league to 11th. Mostly all on the back of Casey Hayward.

 

And it really isn't the same thing being that corners don't rack up volume stats like LBs do. That's why these LB who accumulate vast numbers are put straight to the top of these things. Not because they are a batter player, but because they have more to judge from which people assume means he is the best player.

 

By that theory, Matthew Stafford is a Top 3 QB in the NFL, and I think we can both agree that that is completely laughable.

 

Unless you have say a 34 OLB or 43 DE who can destroy the stat accumulator LBs with super flashy stats like 15 sacks or for DBs 10 picks... It isn't even close to being a fair race between the two.

 

Casey was, indeed, the best all around defensive rookie from 2012. You can make an argument for Wagner, IMO as well. And if all Casey was was a shut down corner I might be tempted to pick Wagner. But he stops the run, doesn't give up scores, makes plays behind the LoS, doesn't commit penalties... Best rookie on D this year.

 

Just ask Matthew Stafford who went 4/14 for 29 yards, no TD, an INT, and 4 PDEF against Hayward.

 

Well this doesn't come off as a bit of homerism. lol. He made all that difference playing on 61% of the Packer's total snaps and playing primarily the nickle position? K...

 

This really doesn't have much to do with his with volume stats. The whole volume stats and failed comparison to Stafford only works if the guy when you watch him play doesn't look impressive, and his game doesn't speak as much volume as his stats do. That's not the case with Luke.

 

He completely took over some games defensively. There were often times where he looked like one of the best ILBs in the NFL. Hands down. The 2 INTs and 8 pass defensed don't even do him justice, he was the complete package this year for the Panthers.

 

And that's not touching on the impact he had on his team's defense's success. The Panther's unit week 5 and beyond in 2012 looked completely different then the Panthers defense of 2011-first 4 games of 2012, that defense as a whole was putrid. Not just in one department but the entire defense as a whole improved, and it all kick-started with his move to the inside, I don't think there's any doubt that he took that defense as a whole to another level.

 

Let's be real for a second. Kuechly didn't just win this award because he was a high round pick and made a lot of tackles, he deserved this award every bit as much (more IMO) then any other rookie, and his play, even ignoring his stats speaks for itself.

[Favre4Ever+ 4,476]

Luke is NOT one of the best ILB in the game. LMAO.

 

And as I have said 10,000 times already.. Casey played in the slot because of being asked to pull a CHarles Woodson. He blitzed, stuffed the run, occupied blockers, etc etc. And he only played half his snaps there. When you say "primarily plays here" you think you are at least 60%. Wrong. Most corners in 10 years can't or don't do what Casey did in his rookie season.

 

Stop being so ignorant bro.

 

Likewise, dozens of ILBs have season like Luke. He played well for less than a 3 quarters of the year and did nothing to separate himself from any other ILB out there today. let alone any of those other rookie LBs.

I am not giving the award to best defensive rookie to a guy who couldn't even play the position he started the season at. Nobody would even care who Luke is if Beason could stay healthy. Instead of initializing this epic change you keep referring to, he would be one of the biggest liabilities in the Panthers D.

 

And you still haven't given me a reason why Casey doesn't deserve it... Or than playing corner.

[Thanatos 2,847]

Biggest liability? Are you crazy? Just because Kuechly didn't dominate at the OLB position the same way he did at the MLB position didn't make him a liability. You are also completely assuming that he would have continued exactly the same, instead of improving over the course of the year, like most rookies.

 

You love to put up strawmen of other people's arguments. Dmac did not say that Luke was one of the best ILBs in the league. He said "there were often times when he looked like one of the best ILBs in the league."

 

Dozens of ILBs have seasons like Luke? Lol! Patrick Willis was the last guy to do what he did in his rookie season.

 

Sorry bro, you're reeking of homerism if you're saying that Hayward deserved the award far more than Kuechly and that its a sham that Luke got it. We had some great defensive rookies this year, and it would be perfectly acceptable for several of them to get it. Let's just leave it at that, okay?

[Favre4Ever+ 4,476]

That's more me reading too quickly and getting ready to unleash a fury of disappointment. That was my mistake, completely -- as far as the "one of the best in the game". I take the blame.

 

But when the conversation starts with Dmac saying "No" to somebody saying Hayward deserved the award, and then him constantly dodging why Hayward doesn't deserve it... It can admittedly get a bit frustrating. Don't go out and say something that you can't or are unable to defend. Just wastes time.. Go play games with somebody else. The only knock brought up to this point has been that he plays corner, and moves to the slot to stop the run and blitz the QB.

 

DeMeco Ryans, Jerod Mayo, Brian Cushing, and Patrick Willis as you stated. That's the way things work with these things. Nothing. Special. Aldon Smith won for playing behind Justin Smith and racking up those sacks. Suh won for being an interior lineman and hitting double digit sacks. Flashy stats are what is going to beat stat accumulators like M/ILB. Also explains why Luke beat out a better player at the same position as him in Bobby Wagner.

 

Maybe if someone could bring up a reasons for Luke to beat out the other guys... But there really isn't an argument. I give you the facilitator of that defense. The leader. And that is awesome. But I think guys like Wagner did the same thing and catapulted his team to arguably the best defense in the entire league. Casey Hayward put the Packers secondary on his back, taking them for worst pass defense ever to just missing the Top 10.

 

Not that it has any impact on this vote, but it will be very interesting to see what happens when Beason is healthy.

 

It is what it is, though. The truth shall set you free.

[DonovanMcnabb for H.O.F 2,241]

That's more me reading too quickly and getting ready to unleash a fury of disappointment. That was my mistake, completely -- as far as the "one of the best in the game". I take the blame.

 

But when the conversation starts with Dmac saying "No" to somebody saying Hayward deserved the award, and then him constantly dodging why Hayward doesn't deserve it... It can admittedly get a bit frustrating. Don't go out and say something that you can't or are unable to defend. Just wastes time.. Go play games with somebody else. The only knock brought up to this point has been that he plays corner, and moves to the slot to stop the run and blitz the QB.

 

DeMeco Ryans, Jerod Mayo, Brian Cushing, and Patrick Willis as you stated. That's the way things work with these things. Nothing. Special. Aldon Smith won for playing behind Justin Smith and racking up those sacks. Suh won for being an interior lineman and hitting double digit sacks. Flashy stats are what is going to beat stat accumulators like M/ILB. Also explains why Luke beat out a better player at the same position as him in Bobby Wagner.

 

Maybe if someone could bring up a reasons for Luke to beat out the other guys... But there really isn't an argument. I give you the facilitator of that defense. The leader. And that is awesome. But I think guys like Wagner did the same thing and catapulted his team to arguably the best defense in the entire league. Casey Hayward put the Packers secondary on his back, taking them for worst pass defense ever to just missing the Top 10.

 

Not that it has any impact on this vote, but it will be very interesting to see what happens when Beason is healthy.

 

It is what it is, though. The truth shall set you free.

 

I never said he should not of won it. So why would I sit here and give you a bunch of reasons as to why I think he didn't deserve it?

 

He said:

lavonte david isn't tampa's middle linebacker, he's their weakside backer.

 

That being said, Hayward deserved this way more than Kuechly did

 

to which I bolded:

 

lavonte david isn't tampa's middle linebacker, he's their weakside backer.

 

That being said, Hayward deserved this way more than Kuechly did

 

And said No. Because that is false. Nobody deserved this award "way more" then anyone else.

 

Hence the reason why I haven't once made a case for why Hayward wouldn't deserve it, but rather a case for why Luke deserves the award more. If Hayward had won it, you would not of seen me come on here saying he didn't deserve it, because like I said in my previous post, he played great, I might of argued Luke was more deserving, but that's neither here nor there.

 

You are categorizing this as just the case of another ILB coming into the league and putting up a lot of tackles and winning the award, almost as if he didn't deserve it because other ILBs have won the award in the past.

 

You are completely disregarding the fact that the individual did something that hadn't been done since the best ILB in the NFL did it his rookie year in leading the league in tackles (overrated stat or not), put up more stuffs then the best ILB has done in every season outside of one. While also overlooking the immense difference he made in one of the worst defenses in the NFL changing it from putrid to respectable, probably having the most impact on his defense's success then any other rookie this year.

 

Simply because the guy you root for put up great numbers, and other guys playing the same position as the guy who won it this year had won the award in the past. Is that really fair to Luke Kuechly?