Prop 8 and the SCOTUS

[Guest Phailadelphia]

This has been a hot issue on TGP lately that, IMO, needs its own thread. Luckily, the SCOTUS began hearing oral arguments on Prop 8 today and DOMA tomorrow SCOTUSBlog has the oral audio as well as transcript from arguments made today. If you want to follow this case (or any SCOTUS case) closely, that's a great blog to bookmark. http://www.scotusblog.com

 

Many justices expressed discouraging opinions for same-sex marriage rights today, saying essentially that they did not want to act as legislators and felt it was better left to the vote.

 

Many view this as a central civil liberties case where certain demographics are being denied equal protection of the law guaranteed by the 14th Amendment.

 

Any thoughts on the case? I think we've beaten these general topics to death over the last couple of weeks but these particular cases bring into question the constitutionality of denying same-sex couples the benefits afforded to "normal" married couples regarding tax benefits, workplace benefits, etc.

Edited March 27, 2013 by Phailadelphia

[Thanatos 2,847]

The only thing I could somehow see them doing that would not result in overturning Prop 8 would be giving civil unions with the exact same benefits, and even that rubs me the wrong way.

 

Hmm, they could also rule that the bringers of the suit simply don't have the legal standing to do so, and thus leave the Ninth Circuit's decision to stand... but then this would only affect California.

Edited March 26, 2013 by Thanatos19

[blotsfan 2,112]

The only thing I could somehow see them doing that would not result in overturning Prop 8 would be giving civil unions with the exact same benefits, and even that rubs me the wrong way.

Theres already a precedent for that though.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plessy_v._Ferguson

[Guest Phailadelphia]

Theres already a precedent for that though.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plessy_v._Ferguson

 

Which was overruled, making it no longer a legal precedent.

[blotsfan 2,112]

Thats the point.

[SteVo+ 3,702]

America is ready for marriage equality. We have bigger issues. Overturn the stupid ban and let's move on.

[Omerta+ 1,206]

Did the constitution say anything about gay people ? The reason I ask is because it said everyone is entitled to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness.

 

So where exactly did we arbitrarily decide it was not ok ?

[Guest Phailadelphia]

Thats the point.

 

Yeah I see that now. That's what I get for posting from a phone.

[OSUViking 505]

Gonna be honest I would probably start laughing at some of these people with their arguments. The guy that mentioned that to be married means to procreate... I'm glad that some of the justices made fun of him.

[Thanatos 2,847]

That's actually the Declaration of Independence, Ngata.

[blotsfan 2,112]

Actually from the 14th amendment

 

All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside. No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.

Doesn't mention pursuit of happiness, but liberty still counts IMO.

[CARDINAL 205]

Actually from the 14th amendment

 

Doesn't mention pursuit of happiness, but liberty still counts IMO.

 

Would any referendum on the matter of same-sex marriage fall under the Due Process Clause?

 

I could see the Supreme Court making a ruling on a technical matter like this, that the people voted so that makes the ban valid. IDK

[OSUViking 505]

Then people could also say that we can vote to strip blacks and women of their rights. The rights of the minority don't get stripped just because the majority says so. That's not how this country was supposed to work.

[Omerta+ 1,206]

That's actually the Declaration of Independence, Ngata.

 

Good catch, I always get them both all fuckered up.

 

That said the point still stands.

[Omerta+ 1,206]

Actually from the 14th amendment

 

Doesn't mention pursuit of happiness, but liberty still counts IMO.

 

Yes I was quoting the wrong one.

 

Life, Liberty, and pursuit of happiness is the declaration of independance.

 

Although you finding it in the constitution just makes it clear that the two most important documents in American history state that people are entitled to liberty and happiness. Says fuck all about being able to strip it from any certain group.

[WindyCitySports 407]

Ideally for me, the government should not be involved in the marriage business. It should be left to the two individuals who would like to enter into a covenant. They should be permitted to do so on their own or through their Church.

 

However, while the government is involved, they MUST extend licenses to gay couples. Refusal to do so is discrimination in the same way that denying interracial couples would be. DOMA is unconstitutional beyond belief because not only is it discriminatory, but it is also an example of a federal overstep. Prop 8 is also unconstitutional because the State of CA is bound to the Constitutional amendments and discriminating goes against the 14th Amendment.

 

 

America is ready for it. Both of these laws need to be struck down.

[OSUViking 505]

I agree, Windy. Why people flock to the government to deal with problems like this only gives the government more power over our personal lives. I've discussed this with Thanatos, but marriage is one of the issues that I believe the government has no jurisdiction over. It's thus not right for them to govern it. IMO, the only role the government should play in marriage is recognizing its existence for financial or taxation purposes.

[Thanatos 2,847]

It's hypocritical in the extreme for people that are supposedly for small government to be vastly on the side of the government sticking their noses in who people can get married to.

[SteVo+ 3,702]

Obviously there are a lot of these going around, but I felt this one was particularly awesome. It's from a New York Senate session back in 2009, so some of you may have seen it before.

 

http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=1318748818753

Edited March 28, 2013 by SteVo

[Omerta+ 1,206]

I hate it when I hear people say you are born gay. That is the only thing that bugs me.

 

Well that and their constant protests, but that is a necessary evil I am afraid.

[CARDINAL 205]

I hate it when I hear people say you are born gay. That is the only thing that bugs me.

 

Well that and their constant protests, but that is a necessary evil I am afraid.

 

So your saying that people are not born gay?

[Omerta+ 1,206]

So your saying that people are not born gay?

 

I do not believe so, no.

[CARDINAL 205]

I do not believe so, no.

 

I share this opinion as well. I believe there are no scientific studies that actually, beyond a reasonable doubt, prove that an individual, whether male or female, is born as a homosexual!

[blotsfan 2,112]

I'm pretty sure that most studies have shown that there are factors before you are born that can make someone more likely to be gay, but other things can influence it as well. I don't think people will ever know 100% though.

 

Of course, my biggest issues with the whole "by birth or by choice" debate is that it doesn't matter. Even if a perfectly straight person woke up one day and decided "I'm gonna be gay now!" he should still have the same rights. Not saying thats you ngata because you've made your pro-gay marriage stance clear, but more in general.

[OSUViking 505]

I don't care whether it is by choice or by genetic makeup. I hate when people justify gay marriage by saying, "Well... I can't really hate them for being gay because they don't have a choice." That's not actually accomplishing anything. You're still being discriminatory towards gays in that you are sympathetic to their not being able to choose to be straight. I get what Ngata is saying. That shit irks me and instantly makes me disregard a conversation on the topic of homosexuality.