Prop 8 and the SCOTUS

[CARDINAL 205]

I don't care whether it is by choice or by genetic makeup. I hate when people justify gay marriage by saying, "Well... I can't really hate them for being gay because they don't have a choice." That's not actually accomplishing anything. You're still being discriminatory towards gays in that you are sympathetic to their not being able to choose to be straight. I get what Ngata is saying. That shit irks me and instantly makes me disregard a conversation on the topic of homosexuality.

 

Why Viking?

[OSUViking 505]

... I literally said it in the post. When people argue that gays should be allowed to marry because they don't have a choice, it's annoying. It completely defeats the purpose of supporting an end to lawful discrimination if you still mentally discriminate against that person.

[WindyCitySports 407]

I do not believe so, no.

I have known people who became gay and suspected that it was because they were exploring or looking for attention.

 

I have also personally spoken to people who were raised in conservative families and conservative towns where being gay was taught as wrong. These people have told me that they DID NOT want to be gay and grew up wishing they were not gay. However, they had homosexual urges despite wanting them to go away, and they eventually came out.

 

In conclusion, there are some that may have become gay because of their own choices. However, there are many, many more, in my opinion, that are indeed born that way. Saying otherwise is incorrect and also insensitive.

[Omerta+ 1,206]

I'm pretty sure that most studies have shown that there are factors before you are born that can make someone more likely to be gay, but other things can influence it as well. I don't think people will ever know 100% though.

 

Of course, my biggest issues with the whole "by birth or by choice" debate is that it doesn't matter. Even if a perfectly straight person woke up one day and decided "I'm gonna be gay now!" he should still have the same rights. Not saying thats you ngata because you've made your pro-gay marriage stance clear, but more in general.

 

See I believe something almost identical. I do not think people are born gay. I think people CHOOSE to be gay and there is nothing wrong with that. They have just been rejected and ostracized for is that they would rather just say, "Hey it is not my fault, I was born this way." They make it sound like some debilitating disease that people should pity. Step up and just say,"I chose to be gay. Don't like it ? Tough. " There is nothing wrong with the decision so don't make excuses for it.

 

I have known people who became gay and suspected that it was because they were exploring or looking for attention.

 

I have also personally spoken to people who were raised in conservative families and conservative towns where being gay was taught as wrong. These people have told me that they DID NOT want to be gay and grew up wishing they were not gay. However, they had homosexual urges despite wanting them to go away, and they eventually came out.

 

In conclusion, there are some that may have become gay because of their own choices. However, there are many, many more, in my opinion, that are indeed born that way. Saying otherwise is incorrect and also insensitive.

 

My parents did the same with religion. They tried to force it on me and that it was the only way to be and not one time did I wish I could buy into their bullshit. I was much more content spending my Sundays watching football than spending it in a church giving money to an entity I would get no return on. If you are what you are then dont blame it on something you have no control over because that is what cowards do. Stand up and say it was a choice because it was.

 

How is that view wrong ? Do you know for a fact that anybody you know was born gay ? I bet you most had that meaningless crush on a girl in grade school. How is it insensitive ? Do you mean insensitive by expecting them to be faithful to who they are without trying to pass blame like it is a genetic predisposition they had no control in ? Like I said with Blots comments, I have absolutely zero problem with gay people nor the thought that they should be able to get married.

 

I do think they should stand up and say," This is not a disease, this is not a handicap, this is the life I chose. If you don't like me that is your choice, but I owe you no explanation on my decisions." Quit pussyfooting. You are Gay. Good for you. Don't make it sound like something you should be ashamed with and you have been saddled with a raw deal the day you were born. If you do not think that way but can hold up a sign about gay pride than imo, you are a hypocrite. Quit hiding now, most people really dont give a shit, it is the same 10 percent of the country who thinks it is horrible. The rest would happily give you rights if they had the power. QUIT HIDING. If you are proud to be gay, than why would you cheapen that by saying,"Well as cool as it is, I can't take credit for it I was born this way. I have no control over my choices I am just merely a vessel that bears the burden of genetics and their ensuing consequences ?" The only reason you would do that is because you are scared imo.

Edited March 30, 2013 by Ngata_Chance

[OSUViking 505]

I kind of see this whole "being born gay" topic as similar to the mutant gene from X-Men. >_>

[Guest Phailadelphia]

See I believe something almost identical. I do not think people are born gay. I think people CHOOSE to be gay and there is nothing wrong with that. They have just been rejected and ostracized for is that they would rather just say, "Hey it is not my fault, I was born this way." They make it sound like some debilitating disease that people should pity. Step up and just say,"I chose to be gay. Don't like it ? Tough. " There is nothing wrong with the decision so don't make excuses for it.

 

But most scientific research points to the fact that most people develop (choose?) homosexuality at a very early age (before 10), which at that age I really don't think is a choice.

[Thanatos 2,847]

I don't think genes mean that someone is 100% going to do or be something. But they can definitely predispose you towards being a certain way. The environment you are raised in, and societal factors, also weigh in.

[Omerta+ 1,206]

But most scientific research points to the fact that most people develop (choose?) homosexuality at a very early age (before 10), which at that age I really don't think is a choice.

 

See I am just of the opinion that is bullshit. How do you tell in a ten year old. A ten year old could not tell you what he had for breakfast and does not understand sexual orientation.

 

And even if it is at ten and they do have the cognizant ability to develop those tendencies than it is a choice. And by the very least if the have to "develop" those tendencies than it clearly indicates they were not born with it. Now could their be external factors that influence you ? Sure ? Just like picking your team. For a lot of people they just go with what they are told as a child and who to root for. So they do.

 

And exactly how are these studies conducted ? So they ask ten year olds if they are gay ? Do they look at chemical signals in the brain ? There is no way they can tell if someone is gay imo. I think during puberty when you start having a sexual attractions is when you find out your preference. However since being gay is such a disease when you are in middle/high school a lot of people dont say it especially in rural/religious communities.

Edited March 30, 2013 by Ngata_Chance

[Omerta+ 1,206]

I don't think genes mean that someone is 100% going to do or be something. But they can definitely predispose you towards being a certain way. The environment you are raised in, and societal factors, also weigh in.

 

Exactly. You have your base code which ever side you cultivate is the side you will lean too. It is a choice.

[blotsfan 2,112]

I kind of see this whole "being born gay" topic as similar to the mutant gene from X-Men. >_>

Not a coincidence. The X-Men comics have intentionally drawn parallels to that, and the first 2 movies were directed by a gay man who said a lot of the movies were inspired by his coming out.

 

Ngata, there are people that think Asians are the hottest women. Do you think they made a conscious choice "I'm going to think asians are hottest"? No, they just happened to prefer it that way. I figure being gay is similar. You don't make a choice to be gay, it just happens.

[Guest Phailadelphia]

See I am just of the opinion that is bullshit. How do you tell in a ten year old. A ten year old could not tell you what he had for breakfast and does not understand sexual orientation.

 

And even if it is at ten and they do have the cognizant ability to develop those tendencies than it is a choice. And by the very least if the have to "develop" those tendencies than it clearly indicates they were not born with it. Now could their be external factors that influence you ? Sure ? Just like picking your team. For a lot of people they just go with what they are told as a child and who to root for. So they do.

 

And exactly how are these studies conducted ? So they ask ten year olds if they are gay ? Do they look at chemical signals in the brain ? There is no way they can tell if someone is gay imo. I think during puberty when you start having a sexual attractions is when you find out your preference. However since being gay is such a disease when you are in middle/high school a lot of people dont say it especially in rural/religious communities.

 

I have access to only the first couple of pages of the studies I've found through my university's research database so I can't answer your questions. I don't disagree that there are some environmental factors.

 

Anyway, why would someone choose to be gay? Considering the extreme social ostracism that has been associated with homosexuals up until recently, why in the world choose to do something that's going to subject them to aforementioned ostracism, bullying, and rejection? If you honestly have no preference or a preference to women, why pick the option that's going to get you labeled an outcast? And this is a question for anyone who says it's a choice, not just you Ngata.

[Omerta+ 1,206]

Not a coincidence. The X-Men comics have intentionally drawn parallels to that, and the first 2 movies were directed by a gay man who said a lot of the movies were inspired by his coming out.

 

Ngata, there are people that think Asians are the hottest women. Do you think they made a conscious choice "I'm going to think asians are hottest"? No, they just happened to prefer it that way. I figure being gay is similar. You don't make a choice to be gay, it just happens.

 

I think a lot of that is the media to be perfectly honest. I mean for the longest time after Tokyo Drift came out, I thought asian women were the end all be all. It passed. Before that it was XXX and russian women. As it turns out I just like women in general. I think a lot of people may see a movie, read an article, hear a song, and then be able to identify a lot of their own characteristics with that and then they decide that may be an avenue they should explore.

 

I have access to only the first couple of pages of the studies I've found through my university's research database so I can't answer your questions. I don't disagree that there are some environmental factors.

 

Anyway, why would someone choose to be gay? Considering the extreme social ostracism that has been associated with homosexuals up until recently, why in the world choose to do something that's going to subject them to aforementioned ostracism, bullying, and rejection? If you honestly have no preference or a preference to women, why pick the option that's going to get you labeled an outcast? And this is a question for anyone who says it's a choice, not just you Ngata.

 

 

I have a more pressing question. Why would you change who you are to appease what people think you should be regardless of consequences ?

[CARDINAL 205]

I have access to only the first couple of pages of the studies I've found through my university's research database so I can't answer your questions. I don't disagree that there are some environmental factors.

 

Anyway, why would someone choose to be gay? Considering the extreme social ostracism that has been associated with homosexuals up until recently, why in the world choose to do something that's going to subject them to aforementioned ostracism, bullying, and rejection? If you honestly have no preference or a preference to women, why pick the option that's going to get you labeled an outcast? And this is a question for anyone who says it's a choice, not just you Ngata.

 

You have to take into account who is doing these scientific studies, because personal bias probably plays some role and academia in general tends to have a pretty liberal bias.

[Guest Phailadelphia]

I have a more pressing question. Why would you change who you are to appease what people think you should be regardless of consequences ?

 

In other circumstances I'd probably agree with you, but the consequences of 'coming out' are (or at least used to be) awful.

 

You have to take into account who is doing these scientific studies, because personal bias probably plays some role and academia in general tends to have a pretty liberal bias.

 

What?

[CARDINAL 205]

In other circumstances I'd probably agree with you, but the consequences of 'coming out' are (or at least used to be) awful.

 

 

 

What?

 

Have you not heard of the term Bias before Taylor?

[Thanatos 2,847]

Cardinal, bro, all people everywhere have biases. That includes the people who aren't part of the liberal academia, as you put it. So every single study that is run by humans are run by biased individuals. That doesn't mean you dismiss the results when the overwhelming majority of them say one thing or another.

 

To do so is simply to embrace your own personal bias, and continue to live with your head in the sand.

 

Most people I know tend to dismiss anything that disagrees with their worldview, while blindly accepting everything that does agree with it. Apply the same rigor to both sides.

[Omerta+ 1,206]

In other circumstances I'd probably agree with you, but the consequences of 'coming out' are (or at least used to be) awful.

 

This is probably true, you would have to pay consequences for something that is not a big deal, and may have to adjust. At what cost though ? I would rather be ridiculed and reviled before I try to become something I am not just because I am different. That is cowardice, plain and simple.

[Zack_of_Steel+ 3,014]

The "homosexuality is a choice" argument holds no water with me. Sure, you can choose what to eat, but one cannot simply choose what does and does not appeal to their tastebuds. Genetics and the environment play a part, as well as numerous psychological variables, but nobody just decides they want to be aroused by someone of the same sex anymore than someone chooses to be aroused by a body pillow or a dense piece of shit on their chest.

[Omerta+ 1,206]

So you dont believe in acquired tastes ?

[blotsfan 2,112]

Do you think that someone is gonna be like "I don't like this gay sex, but I reeeaaaly want to be gay so I'll just keep doing it until I enjoy it"?

 

Btw the answer is no, or else the gay people who force themselves into straight relationships would acquire the taste.

[Omerta+ 1,206]

Tastes do change. That is indeed a fact.

[blotsfan 2,112]

Sometimes, but it's idiotic to say that if they wanna be straight they can just do it until they actually like it.

[Omerta+ 1,206]

I never said they could. I am just saying that I think there can be any number of things that make it a choice, I just dont buy that people are born gay. It is a choice and a perfectly normal one in my eyes. There is no need to try and make it more than what it is and try to "blame" it on genetics like people do for everything.

[blotsfan 2,112]

[Omerta+ 1,206]

 

1choice noun \ˈchȯis\

 

Definition of CHOICE

 

1

: the act of choosing : selection <finding it hard to make a choice>

2

: power of choosing : option <you have no choice>

3

a : the best part : cream

b : a person or thing chosen <she was their first choice>

4

: a number and variety to choose among <a plan with a wide choice of options>

5

: care in selecting

6

: a grade of meat between prime and good.

 

Now that it is out of the way lol, I still believe it is a choice.