Russia and Crimea

[southgadawg 52]

Once again Phail you immediately jump to the wrong conclusion. Nowhere did I say that war or military was definitely the answer. What I meant was that the sanctions imposed was a JOKE. From my understanding there were 4 Crimean officials sanctioned and 7 Russian ones. I mean seriously if that was ALL you were going to do you might as well done NOTHING and it would probably had been perceived better.

 

I am also wondering why do you see a correlation between what the country spends militarily and the perception of the United States not being a real factor worldwide? I don't think one really equates to the other necessarily.

 

Oh and for the record please don't deal so much in absolutes where you say EVERYONE. I don't really THINK you mean everyone but if you don't mean it then don't say it---- of course with you I sometimes have issues with understanding what you are saying. Perhaps the two of us are on such different wavelengths that we need to be incredibly specific so as not to misunderstand each other if we want to be crystal clear.

Edited March 18, 2014 by southgadawg

[Guest Phailadelphia]

My point is that Obama can not win in this scenario. For some reason there is this terribly stupid and misguided belief that foreign perception of the US in terms of its strength and influence has been significantly diminished under Obama because he has become the "apologizer in chief," to borrow the dumbest label of him I've seen yet. US power militarily, economically, or diplomatically has not waned because we have a President who has finally expressed a strong unwillingness to go to war at the drop of a hat. It's silly to suggest anything to the contrary.

 

For the record, this was not aimed specifically at you. It's an attack on most of the republican criticism of Obama's foreign policy dating back to 2009 but especially now, regarding Ukraine.

[southgadawg 52]

So best as you can understand it how do you interpret Obama's administration's foreign policy? What are it's principles? What has been it's crowning achievement so far?

[blotsfan 2,112]

Getting us the fuck out of Iraq is probably the best thing he's done.

[Guest Phailadelphia]

Killing in Laden and wiping out almost all of the al Qaeda leadership and not putting more boots on the ground have all been pretty cool too.

[southgadawg 52]

So you are giving him the most credit for pulling us out of Iraq which was already an inevitability (and admittedly needed to be done) and also you are giving his administration credit for killing Bin Laden. I will say I definitely give his admin credit for okaying the assets to take care of the business they needed to in regard to Bin Laden but I see that whole scenario more as a big win for the analysts and the guys who were there than to the Obama administration. Perhaps admittedly I am not giving his admin enough credit and perhaps you are giving it too much. The truth is possibly somewhere in between.

 

I will go ahead and say that I don't think either Bush admin was perfect in foreign policy...FAR from it....but I just feel the situation is far worse now than it was years ago (and you have to recall that I remember the 70's and early 80's quite well compared to most of you). There is no doubt that the country has regressed imho economically, socially, and morally since that time (although that is MY opinion).

 

I still haven't seen an answer about how do you interpret Obama's administrations' foreign policy? or it's principles? I am not trying to belittle it...I just myself don't see it as a concrete thing. Before he was elected the first term I really felt that Obama had a lot of promise and I hoped that he would have a good tenure as president. It seems now in retrospect that Obama is an extremely good orator and is firm in his beliefs but at the same time has an extremely difficult time understanding other's point of views and encouraging others to adapt to his beliefs. He gives me the impression that if your views don't match his then someway you are illiterate and backwards. It is also appears to me that he cannot fathom that what motivates him doesn't motivate others. In that I think he has GREATLY misread Putin. Where Obama very probably reached out in what he thought was friendship and brotherhood Putin and the Russians perceived it as weakness. To me Obama's admin's foreign policy isn't clear and straightforward but more elusive and fleeting......I in truth don't know what people see America as standing for anymore.

 

One of the biggest things that has become evident in the whole Russian Crimea crisis is that because of the industrial and commercial globalization of some many major companies that they have put pressure on not only the US but the EU not to put as big as possible sanctions onto Russia as possible. We (as a world) have become too reliant on other countries that we are not as easily able to adapt and become self-reliant again. In truth we don't have all the skills nor infrastructure to do so. How that affects us in this issue or in the future will only tell through the passage of time.

 

There are no easy answers in this incident. As I have said before I am not sure anyone knows what all the facts are either. I do know however that as I have stated before. Putin and Russia had this planned and felt like they could easily step in and seize the area with little to no resistance. They have done so and I doubt seriously short of major war (which I pray won't happen) that anything will change the fact that Russia has de facto control of Crimea. My biggest concern is how does this incident affect similar issues in the future.

[Guest Phailadelphia]

If Obama gets the blame for any and all foreign policy mishaps, then he gets credit for bin Laden and pulling out of Iraq too. You can't cherry pick your praise and criticism.

 

Obama may believe differing opinions are simply wrong, and that's something I can empathize with because I often make the same mistake. But he's shown since day 1 that's he's willing to compromise on significant issues that Democrats hold dearly. Your assessment of Obama seems more suitable for Rephblicans--especially the Tea Party--who have refused to compromise on anything and is undoubtedly one of the worst bodies of Congress we'll ever experience.

 

To answer your question, I think Obama's foreign policy principles rest on a strong hesitance to get involved in anything that might result in war/boots on the ground.

[Guest Phailadelphia]

Saw an important point made today in a debate revolving around US sanctions on Russian officials that I hadn't thought about previously: the US financial system basically runs the world. These Russian officials that have had US sanctions placed on them are effectively prevented from participating in the global financial system. It's truly a much harder hit to these officials than they're letting on about.

Edited March 20, 2014 by Phailadelphia

[southgadawg 52]

Crimea has been annexed by Russia----

 

 

BUT the most troubling news is that it appears that this situation could get worse very quickly:

 

http://www.nbcnews.com/NbcNews_2014/storyline/ukraine-crisis/nato-russia-has-sizeable-ready-forces-ukraine-border-n59801

 

 

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-26704205

 

 

I am afraid this area is going to end up a fireball before it is over with.

[Guest Phailadelphia]

Good article in the NYT yesterday: http://www.nytimes.com/2014/03/23/opinion/sunday/douthat-russia-without-illusions.html?_r=0

[OSUViking 505]

Russia's using the same rhetoric from Ukraine against Estonia, I believe. I think this will just be rhetoric, as Estonia is an actual NATO ally.

[southgadawg 52]

Russia's using the same rhetoric from Ukraine against Estonia, I believe. I think this will just be rhetoric, as Estonia is an actual NATO ally.

 

 

I would hope that it is just rhetoric because very few would want a war (that would be a terrible thing). I am seriously questioning Putin's motives though because it appears as if his administration has been putting out a lot of anti-american and anti-west propaganda of late. Historically when a country creates an "enemy" then their populace is more easily lured into war with that perceived enemy.

 

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2014/03/22/putin-stokes-taps-russians-resentment-america-and-west/

[Bucman 891]

Hopefully Russia hate fucks the shit out of Ukraine.

[Bucman 891]

Bump. Shit is starting to get pretty serious now

[OSUViking 505]

While I have no doubt that the US/EU and Russia both have a hand in this, POLITICO had an interesting article that pondered whether the unrest is more due to political infighting in the Ukraine than because of foreign influence. They mentioned how oligarchs in Western Ukraine funded the Maidan protests because they weren't doing as well under Yanukovych, and also that there are oligarchs in Eastern Ukraine that may start to suffer if Tymoshenko comes to power again. Still, there is a possibility that this unrest continues on for a long time.

[Vin+ 3,121]

 

http://www.nbcnews.com/storyline/ukraine-crisis/trampoline-space-russian-official-tells-nasa-take-flying-leap-n92616

 

Russian Deputy Prime Minister Dmitry Rogozin, a target of U.S. sanctions sparked by the Ukraine crisis, said Tuesday that those sanctions would boomerang against America's space effort and essentially told NASA to take a flying leap ... on a trampoline.

 

"After analyzing the sanctions against our space industry, I suggest to the USA to bring their astronauts to the International Space Station using a trampoline," Rogozin said via his Russian-language Twitter account.

 

The tart tweet came after news reports in which Rogozin, who is in charge of the Russian space program, was quoted as saying sanctions against Russia would have a negative effect on NASA as well as Europe's space effort. "Essentially, the Americans want to clear us out of the space services market," he said.

 

Russian rockets are being used to launch European satellites as well as NASA astronauts, he noted. "I am sick and tired of these sanctions, to be honest," he told journalists in the Crimean city of Simferopol, which was part of Ukraine until Crimea was annexed by Russia last month. "They don't understand that the sanctions will hit them like a boomerang."

 

Rogozin is on the list of Russian officials whose financial assets are supposed to be frozen under the terms of the U.S. sanctions. He came under criticism last week from SpaceX's billionaire founder, Elon Musk, who is contesting the U.S. Air Force's decision to buy rocket hardware from United Launch Alliance.

 

The Russian state-controlled company NPO Energomash provides engine components for ULA's Atlas 5 rocket, and Musk said "it would be hard to imagine that Dmitry Rogozin is not benefiting personally from the dollars that are sent there."

 

If that's the case, Musk argued that the Air Force's purchase of Atlas rockets might violate U.S. sanctions. In response to a question about that issue, State Department spokeswoman Jen Psaki said Rogozin was being targeted "as an individual, not as a company."

 

 

[southgadawg 52]

Off topic (but in response to the US buying russian made rockets):

I know I am probably in the minority by a long shot but I really wish this country did more of it's own manufacturing inside the country. I remember growing up in the 70's (I don't remember much about the 60's) and there were SEVERAL manufacturing plants around here making all sorts of stuff. Things that were foreign made were thought (and were at the time) to be vastly inferior to what was American made. We (as a country) were not dependent on other countries as we are today. I seriously see no way in the world that our situation today as a country is any where near as good as it was back then. Globalization has helped lead to the downfall of this country in so many ways.

[blotsfan 2,112]

But its also why you can buy a nice laptop for $800 instead of $3000

[southgadawg 52]

But its also why you can buy a nice laptop for $800 instead of $3000

 

As well as having all sorts of workers who are unemployed or underemployed compared to what they could/should had been. Having the ability to buy cheap products doesn't mean that all the benefits outweigh the costs of such an arrangement. Like I alluded to earlier I am remembering a different time than most all of you experienced and without any doubt in my mind I wish we could go back to the way it was (concerning employment, wages compared to cost of living, average family wage compared to poverty line, average family savings/debt, national debt, and a ton of other factors).

[Bucman 891]

America is slowly going back to make more of his own crap. A lot the steel plants here have reopened.

[southgadawg 52]

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-27247428

 

Looks like the Ukraine has resorted to conscription to bolster it's ranks for now.

[OSUViking 505]

The insurgency in Eastern Ukraine is getting pretty violent.