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seanbrock

2020 Democratic Primary Race

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Sanders is attempting to move the party to the left. You don't do that by holding positions just to the left of the mainstream. Bernie's position is that things like M4A pay for themselves in the long run, due to lowered hospital costs. He does have studies that supports such an assertion but there are also studies that claim otherwise.

What we need to do, and what no one is brave enough to suggest, is cut military spending in half. And take a hard look at how we acquire things for the military because they don't it in a very cost-efficient manner. We don't need to have the strongest military in the world by 30 miles, just by five. Gabbard is dead on accurate here, and I would love for Bernie to pick her or Yang as his VP. I hope he does not pick a moderate liberal. I really think its time to try to see what power the real left of this country has. I think for too long the Dems have been concerned with appeasing the moderates and playing to the middle ground. Bernie ain't gonna appeal to many republicans, so fuck it, go with a pure progressive ticket and see what happens. You will at least fire up your base. I don't think, at this point, anyone else has a shot at Trump, barring a huge economic collapse, simply because Bernie is going to have a plurality of delegates going into the convention. Any scenario that does not result in him being the nominee, assuming that is the case, will cause a huge rebellion from the so-called "Bernie Bros" which will sink the Dems regardless.

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18 hours ago, seanbrock said:

Most of the Democrats in congress are cowards. They'll support medicare for all if they feel not doing so would cost them their seat and if they'd rather take the money, Sanders can help a primary opponent who will. I think at this point it's pretty clear a big majority of democrat voters support medicare for all,  otherwise we wouldn't even be asking this question. 

You're right they would flop in that instance... And, especially with Sanders, there is more to consider there. While a majority of Americans would support a single payer system... would they support abolishing private insurance completely? There was a poll done by Harris last year that said something like 70% of Americans either strongly agree with or are OK with single payer... Only 13% of people said they would support it if it means banning private insurance.  

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Lol how many people would that even effect? 98% of people i know hate their insurance or don't have any insurance. That's anecdotal i know but what are your guys experiences with insurance?

Edited by seanbrock

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On 2/23/2020 at 10:05 PM, DalaiLama4Ever said:

Bernie just came out and promised free child care through the age of 4. When asked how he would pay for it he just said with “ taxes on billionaires “... 
 

Obviously super cool IDEA. But when you’re putting forth 700 new (and again mostly good) ideas to reshape the country.... I feel as if taxes on billionaires, which is his answer for everything, will cover even close to all of this. 
 

He needs to start acting like the nominee. Stop sucking peoples cocks and lubing assholes.... start providing people with details on how this all ACTUALLY is going to work. 
 

He’s so frustrating . Lol 

He's also proposed a wall street transaction tax.

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11 minutes ago, seanbrock said:

Lol how many people would that even effect? 98% of people i know hate their insurance or don't have any insurance. That's anecdotal i know but what are your guys experiences with insurance?

How many people have private health insurance? Uhhh.. a lot. lol. 

Wikipedia says almost 70% (67.3). 55% of that is employer-based. I would personally just like the option. Just for example, if Pete wins (I hope not, just an example because he supports an option)... I would see what the gubment plan consisted of, what it cost and how it compares to my current plan. 

That's what scares me about candidates who don't support an option... 

If the government plan is going to be so inclusive and cover so much... People will just choose it over their current plans. The only reason, in my mind, to fear giving people a choice is that the new plan is going to come up short or not be one size fits all. Peoples needs are malleable, and health insurance should be too -- regardless of where it comes from.

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Sure, lots of people have private health insurance. What i'm saying is most people's private insurance sucks. Unless you're union or just rich ir both. Most people witg private insurance do not fall under any of those categories. Lol

Edited by seanbrock

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My private insurance is pretty good. If I'm going to be forced to change to Medicare where I don't have to pay premiums, I'm cool with that. But if my taxes are going to be raised $10,000 to pay for it (as Sanders has very openly admitted will happen to the middle class), my wife and I would have to sell our house. Sanders casually says, "Yeah, I'll raise taxes $10,000, but people won't be paying $10,000 in premiums under my plans." Not all people pay $10,000 in premiums, Bernie.

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Taxing the middle class--openly acknowledging that your ideas will require it--is campaign suicide. Bernie doesn't have a snowball's chance in hell. 

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Bernie beats Trump in like 80% of the head to head polls. So he doesn't have a snowball's chance in hell. Gotcha.

His tax plan is spelled out on his website here: https://www.bernietax.com/

So you can absolutely put it in there and find out, he is upfront about it.

Edited by Thanatos

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I'm going by comments he's made in interviews (and possibly debates, if I'm remembering correctly), which were ten thousand, not ten percent.

And general election polls around this time, historically, are very inaccurate. Sanders certainly has a chance, but just as an example, his comments about Castro don't play very well in South Florida, where I live. And not only is Florida a huge battleground state, but southeastern Florida particularly is a mostly Democratic area where Sanders will need to run up the vote count.

Thanatos, I checked Sanders' web site, and I think his projections for "annual healthcare spending" are a little dubious. Is he talking about out-of-pocket expenses? Because his web site projects my wife and I pay over $5,000 out of pocket if so, and we definitely don't.

Edited by SteVo

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3 minutes ago, SteVo said:

I'm going by comments he's made in interviews (and possibly debates, if I'm remembering correctly), which were ten thousand, not ten percent.

And general election polls around this time, historically, are very inaccurate. Sanders certainly has a chance, but just as an example, his comments about Castro don't play very well in South Florida, where I live. And not only is Florida a huge battleground state, but southeastern Florida particularly is a mostly Democratic area where Sanders will need to run up the vote count.

Thanatos, I checked Sanders' web site, and I think his projections for "annual healthcare spending" are a little dubious. Is he talking about out-of-pocket expenses? Because his web site projects my wife and I pay over $5,000 out of pocket if so, and we definitely don't.

Yeah I misread you at first and redid my post. 

I'm not talking about general election polls I'm talking about head to head in swing states. I concur they can be inaccurate but to argue he doesn't have a snowball's chance in hell is silly.

Sanders site is talking about the combined total of out-of-pocket medical expenses, including cost of drugs, plus total medical insurance cost you pay.

The Castro comments are stupidly blown out of proportion. Obama said roughly the same thing. Just because Castro was a pretty bad dictator doesn't mean literally everything in Cuba was bad. Trump says and does things on a daily basis that are way worse and no one seems to care anymore.

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I never realized how good Bernie was at the political double speak until last night when he was getting attacked. Whenever someone asks him how he plans to pay for his plan, he changes the subject and if they ask him again he just changes the usbject and starts literally yelling. It's very unappealing. And all those guys do that up there, I know that. But I just never really noticed it as strongly with Bernie before.

And I am with Stevo... Even though I am single, my plan is very decent. My premiums are good and they cover a lot of the things I just need personally. Now, obviously I don't have any chronic or ongoing illnesses, and that's great. But Bernie's plan means I am sacrificing my financial stability to help his plan get off the ground. I am all for the common good, but damn... where am I coming up with that extra cash to make sure this works? I guess that's my problem, but fuck me. lol

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6 hours ago, DalaiLama4Ever said:

I never realized how good Bernie was at the political double speak until last night when he was getting attacked. Whenever someone asks him how he plans to pay for his plan, he changes the subject and if they ask him again he just changes the usbject and starts literally yelling. It's very unappealing. And all those guys do that up there, I know that. But I just never really noticed it as strongly with Bernie before.

And I am with Stevo... Even though I am single, my plan is very decent. My premiums are good and they cover a lot of the things I just need personally. Now, obviously I don't have any chronic or ongoing illnesses, and that's great. But Bernie's plan means I am sacrificing my financial stability to help his plan get off the ground. I am all for the common good, but damn... where am I coming up with that extra cash to make sure this works? I guess that's my problem, but fuck me. lol

How much are you paying for it, would be the question. 

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Bernie's site, which you linked, says I am paying an extra almost $500. That's before I factored in my raise too. I assume I will be paying more the more I make.

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1 hour ago, DalaiLama4Ever said:

Bernie's site, which you linked, says I am paying an extra almost $500. That's before I factored in my raise too. I assume I will be paying more the more I make.

I meant how much are you paying in healthcare costs.

But yeah its a 4% tax, so the more you make the more you would pay.

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Yeah it’s just weird to me. 
 

As I’ve mentioned before. I’m not against a single payer system in essence. I have been very fortunate thus far in my life when it comes to health (knock on wood). I am all for the common good, and helping each other out.

It just feels like with all of the Bernie Banter and rhetoric that I shouldn’t be on the chopping block. It just doesn’t connect with me that he rails so hard against billionaires but never once mentions how people like me are going to be impacted wayyyy more. 
 

Even though the millionaires and billionaires are going to be paying way more than me in totality, I guarantee that I “feel” it more. That’s a shitty feeling. 

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I think he assumes that a lot of poorer people, (speaking as one myself), have medical conditions that they either A) pay out of pocket for or B) are simply not getting checked out due to price. I'm in camp B, to be sure, so while I think I would pay about $200 more overall, M4A is also about having peace of mind that if something big does happen I'm not utterly fucked like I would be at the moment. It also doesn't tie my insurance to my job, as it is at the moment, which makes it even harder to find another job if necessary. 

Health insurance is a damn racket. Ever since I figured out how to look up the actual cost of the drug versus what the insurance charges, (I work in pharmacy, I can access that information easily enough) my mind is blown on a daily basis. 

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We're also living in a world wherr small business owners simply can't afford to provide health insurance in many cases. Imo medicare for all would take care of that problem.

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18 hours ago, Thanatos said:

I think he assumes that a lot of poorer people, (speaking as one myself), have medical conditions that they either A) pay out of pocket for or B) are simply not getting checked out due to price. I'm in camp B, to be sure, so while I think I would pay about $200 more overall, M4A is also about having peace of mind that if something big does happen I'm not utterly fucked like I would be at the moment. It also doesn't tie my insurance to my job, as it is at the moment, which makes it even harder to find another job if necessary. 

Health insurance is a damn racket. Ever since I figured out how to look up the actual cost of the drug versus what the insurance charges, (I work in pharmacy, I can access that information easily enough) my mind is blown on a daily basis. 

I agree. And those people should be helped. But fucking over low middle class people who are just getting by isn't the answer to helping those people. But there should also be a level of freedom of choice to it. Pass Madicare For All Who Want It.. You opt in, you get the security you want for extra money that doesn't break your situation. Someone like me... maybe I want to roll around a little risky for a few years betting on myself and my health. Maybe that changes down the road and I want to opt in... At least I have that choice, instead of taking it away from me and adding even more insane income tax on top of it.

Plus, it will probably end up costing more anyway... When Bernie was pitching this last election I am pretty sure the his percent increase on poor people like 2% or slightly more... Now it's 4. He's gonna get elected and it's probably gonna be 8% because the government is inept. 

I like most of Bernie's ideas. I like that he is fighting the fight. I feel like he genuinely wants to help people. 

I just think his execution... blows. Like badly. You kind of started down this path a few posts ago... but why do we need to add a new 4% income tax? Why is THAT the only way any of these politicians know how to get money out of people. 

More specifically to your post... Why can't we cut defense spending. End these ridiculous regime change wars, stop being the world police... Shift that money to our communities, to UHC, to education.  Why can't we take a portion of already existing income tax and just shift that to a UHC plan (yes, I realize this requires cuts elsewhere)? 

Why can't we put a VAT on non-essential goods ...? I am totally fine with(relatively) Apple shitting on humanity and raising their prices in US markets because they are off setting VAT... Why? Because that brand new iPhone is bullshit anyway and it gives me a CHOICE. It gives and allows me freedom to choose. If I or you want to make sure we get that brand new model iPhone and feel like it's worth the extra $200... fine. Do it. If you don't... wait a year.. get a different brand of phone, etc etc. 

Bernie says his plan is what like... $30 trillion over a decade? I think Warren's is $20 trillion...  A VAT at half the EU rate would bring in almost a trillion per year, roughly 30% of Bernie's price tag. Bernie's 5,000,000 different "options" to pay for UHC only total 17 trillion and I pulled 10 out of my ass in under 60 seconds (thanks Andrew). 

I don't know what just the % of his revenue generated by the tax increases would be on the 4% or whatever but that needs to change and needs to be removed from his bill. Or just increase the cap which is what.. like 30k right now? Make it 100k... Or.. how about fucking THIS. 

BRAIN BLAST.

Eliminate the tax increase for everyone but the exact people Bernie yells at everytime he hits the stage. BILLIONAIRES!  Include all the millionaires too. 

While it's great that people like you and me want to help... We shouldn't be footing this bill. Absolutely not. At least not in the form of mandatory income tax.

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15 minutes ago, DalaiLama4Ever said:

I agree. And those people should be helped. But fucking over low middle class people who are just getting by isn't the answer to helping those people. But there should also be a level of freedom of choice to it. Pass Madicare For All Who Want It.. You opt in, you get the security you want for extra money that doesn't break your situation. Someone like me... maybe I want to roll around a little risky for a few years betting on myself and my health. Maybe that changes down the road and I want to opt in... At least I have that choice, instead of taking it away from me and adding even more insane income tax on top of it.

Plus, it will probably end up costing more anyway... When Bernie was pitching this last election I am pretty sure the his percent increase on poor people like 2% or slightly more... Now it's 4. He's gonna get elected and it's probably gonna be 8% because the government is inept. 

I like most of Bernie's ideas. I like that he is fighting the fight. I feel like he genuinely wants to help people. 

I just think his execution... blows. Like badly. You kind of started down this path a few posts ago... but why do we need to add a new 4% income tax? Why is THAT the only way any of these politicians know how to get money out of people. 

More specifically to your post... Why can't we cut defense spending. End these ridiculous regime change wars, stop being the world police... Shift that money to our communities, to UHC, to education.  Why can't we take a portion of already existing income tax and just shift that to a UHC plan (yes, I realize this requires cuts elsewhere)? 

Why can't we put a VAT on non-essential goods ...? I am totally fine with(relatively) Apple shitting on humanity and raising their prices in US markets because they are off setting VAT... Why? Because that brand new iPhone is bullshit anyway and it gives me a CHOICE. It gives and allows me freedom to choose. If I or you want to make sure we get that brand new model iPhone and feel like it's worth the extra $200... fine. Do it. If you don't... wait a year.. get a different brand of phone, etc etc. 

Bernie says his plan is what like... $30 trillion over a decade? I think Warren's is $20 trillion...  A VAT at half the EU rate would bring in almost a trillion per year, roughly 30% of Bernie's price tag. Bernie's 5,000,000 different "options" to pay for UHC only total 17 trillion and I pulled 10 out of my ass in under 60 seconds (thanks Andrew). 

I don't know what just the % of his revenue generated by the tax increases would be on the 4% or whatever but that needs to change and needs to be removed from his bill. Or just increase the cap which is what.. like 30k right now? Make it 100k... Or.. how about fucking THIS. 

BRAIN BLAST.

Eliminate the tax increase for everyone but the exact people Bernie yells at everytime he hits the stage. BILLIONAIRES!  Include all the millionaires too. 

While it's great that people like you and me want to help... We shouldn't be footing this bill. Absolutely not. At least not in the form of mandatory income tax.

I absolutely agree here, which is why I think Bernie's plan is second to Yang's. Give people $1000/mo and let them decide what to do with it. We'd still need a safety net for people who get hit with the ridiculous costs for say, chemotherapy.

I also think people below a certain income should not be paying more in taxes. That doesn't really make sense to me.

A vote for Bernie, to me, at this point, is not me thinking M4A is going to be a thing shortly. I don't think he can get it past Congress. It's more that Bernie is an actual progressive running here and we need to shift the government that way.

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Sanders will also save you money in your taxes by ending the war on drugs and dismantling the prison industrial complex. Not to mention ending the endless wars. He's already reached across the isle to do both of those things and to push for the right for us to negotiate drug prices. 

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19 hours ago, DalaiLama4Ever said:

More specifically to your post... Why can't we cut defense spending. End these ridiculous regime change wars, stop being the world police... Shift that money to our communities, to UHC, to education.  Why can't we take a portion of already existing income tax and just shift that to a UHC plan (yes, I realize this requires cuts elsewhere)? 

Why can't we put a VAT on non-essential goods ...? I am totally fine with(relatively) Apple shitting on humanity and raising their prices in US markets because they are off setting VAT... Why? Because that brand new iPhone is bullshit anyway and it gives me a CHOICE. It gives and allows me freedom to choose. If I or you want to make sure we get that brand new model iPhone and feel like it's worth the extra $200... fine. Do it. If you don't... wait a year.. get a different brand of phone, etc etc. 

 

Favre4President

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Steyer and Mayor Pete out... Lookin like a Bernie / Biden showdown. Warren claims she has no plan to drop out, even if she sucks on Super Tuesday.

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Warren will see the light after Tuesday. Hopefully Klobuchar does too.

Let Bernie and Biden (and Bloomberg) battle it out.

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