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Thanatos

Game of Thrones Final Season **SPOILER WARNING**

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9 hours ago, DalaiLama4Ever said:

Would it have been cool ? Sure. I mean, how can you have too many one v one combat scenes ? Lol. 

But they were establishing Greyworm as someone who was ready to move on from the fighting. He had this discussion with Missendei , “ but my people are peaceful “. He needs justice for Dany, he compromises and gets that and then sails for her home land. It was a really good ending for him. 

And how often has Jon ever done things for himself. He’s the Ned Stark mold of ultimate loyalty and sacrifice. A lot of his plot and development comes from saving everyone else lol.

Sansa was groomed to rule and had this aspirations, unlike Jon. Also, I don't think she is a good example of "just hollywood". Avengers doing that cheesy female team-up was "just hollywood" lol. 

Wut? Missandei says that, Grey Worm responds "But my people are not."

My issue is less with Grey Worm and more with the Dothraki. When their Khal dies, the bloodriders have two jobs left in this world- to avenge their death, and then to escort the Khaleesi to Vael Dothrak. Obviously part 2 would be hard to do given A) they are across the sea from Vael Dothrak, and B) if Dany can be said to have a "Khaleesi" it would be... Jon, who killed her. After that, they all commit ritual suicide. 

So the Dothraki aren't going to compromise like that its not in their nature. They would have killed Jon no matter what, or died trying.

I will say that Grey Worm leaving, again, makes no sense why Jon can't just return.

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32 minutes ago, Thanatos said:

Wut? Missandei says that, Grey Worms responds "But my people are not."

My issue is less with Grey Worm and more with the Dothraki. When their Khal dies, the bloodriders have two jobs left in this world- to avenge their death, and then to escort the Khaleesi to Vael Dothrak. Obviously part 2 would be hard to do given A) they are across the sea from Vael Dothrak, and B) if Dany can be said to have a "Khaleesi" it would be... Jon, who killed her. After that, they all commit ritual suicide. 

So the Dothraki aren't going to compromise like that its not in their nature. They would have killed Jon no matter what, or died trying.

I will say that Grey Worm leaving, again, makes no sense why Jon can't just return.

Yeah, she says it... They have plans to go back to her land.

“When she has won, do want to grow old in this place?” Grey Worm says. “Is there nothing else you want to do, nothing else you want to see?”

“Naath,” Missandei says. “I’d like to see the beaches again.”

And he follows through with that after her death. Super satisfying. 

Dany had multiple allies in Westeros, which is why Jon can't return. Storm's End and the Iron Islands are both ruled by Dany sympathizers and want Jon to pay for his crimes. You can say what you want about these kingdoms, but having 1/3 of the 6 Kingdoms pissed at Jon probably isn't a great way to start off as King for Bran.

Also do we even know what the Dothraki do? I don't think they are on the ships with the Unsullied. But they are on the docks in the background. My guess is they are just sailing back to Essos. Dany names them all bloodriders but also says she isn't their Khal like in the same sentence, so... It seems less of an official thing and more of a ceremonial one.  She already got her three bloodriders anyway back in like... Season 1 or 2, lol.  One died and the others just never came back or held much weight.. one of the differences in the show.

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1 hour ago, DalaiLama4Ever said:

Yeah, she says it... They have plans to go back to her land.

“When she has won, do want to grow old in this place?” Grey Worm says. “Is there nothing else you want to do, nothing else you want to see?”

“Naath,” Missandei says. “I’d like to see the beaches again.”

And he follows through with that after her death. Super satisfying. 

Dany had multiple allies in Westeros, which is why Jon can't return. Storm's End and the Iron Islands are both ruled by Dany sympathizers and want Jon to pay for his crimes. You can say what you want about these kingdoms, but having 1/3 of the 6 Kingdoms pissed at Jon probably isn't a great way to start off as King for Bran.

Also do we even know what the Dothraki do? I don't think they are on the ships with the Unsullied. But they are on the docks in the background. My guess is they are just sailing back to Essos. Dany names them all bloodriders but also says she isn't their Khal like in the same sentence, so... It seems less of an official thing and more of a ceremonial one.  She already got her three bloodriders anyway back in like... Season 1 or 2, lol.  One died and the others just never came back or held much weight.. one of the differences in the show.

Except, I didn't mean back to the Six Kingdoms, I meant back to Winterfell where he would probably want to be anyway. Given that the North is now a free kingdom, why is banishment from the Six enforced by the North? And, once again, killing a queen when you have the *better claim to the Throne* is not a crime. Not by GoT standards. It's really not even a crime if you don't- again, Robert's Rebellion was exactly that. It is only a crime in their eyes because they think he is Jon Snow, not Aegon Targaryen. Otherwise you just have a power struggle between two people who could both be the rulers, with the one who has the better claim killing the other. Nothing disqualifying about that by GoT's own rules. 

More like super cheesy. Also, the lines I said come after that. Grey Worm specifically says his people are not peaceful so they will protect Missandei's. He's not really looking for a peaceful life, at least I don't get that vibe at all. He's just trying to impress a girl. Also given that Naath is an isolated island and they don't like strangers, a bunch of people showing up in warships is going to freak them the fuck out. Not to mention the Unsullied are just going to die off in a generation, which makes Davos' idea that they could start a House be kind of a jerk move. Not to mention, Grey Worm was just murdering a bunch of people so I don't really feel all that much empathy for him. Also not to mention the Unsullied are still nothing more than emotionless soldiers who are just following Grey Worm because they don't know what else to do. 

The Dothraki? They are, last we see them, wandering around in King's Landing apparently buying goods? Idk its vague. Their entire culture has been changed in a matter of a couple months or however long Dany has been on Westeros apparently, and we're just supposed to accept that. Like the bajillion other plotholes in this season. The idea that the Dothraki would just accept Jon not dying just runs counter to everything we have ever been told about them. But whatever. 

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Yeah I don't think Jon is just some Ned Stark clone. I think Ned is a big part of him but I don't think Ned would have tried to bring the Wildlings into the fold. That's pretty significant. He died for those people. They brought in Aemon's talk about love and duty at the end but I think a part of Jon's arch is when Aemon tells him to kill the boy and let the man live. I mean, I guess they paid that off but to me Jon had already made that change when he became Lord commander of the Nights Watch. Standing up for what's right is kind of Jon's thing, ask Samwell Tarley ha.

Let's not act like Ned was just some pussy that followed the rules no matter what though either. He defied Robert and stood his ground when he felt he had to. He was so sick of Robert's shit he almost went back to Winterfell BEFORE he found out about Cersei's bastards. Ned also broke his strict could see of honor by first hiding Jon's identity and then again by agreeing to say as he was told about Joffrey to save his daughters. 

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The North just regained their independence. I don’t think making a large political move overruling the King of the 6 Kingdoms is a wise start to their independence. 

Whether he actually broke a law or not seems kind of like arguing semantics. I don’t think it really matters either way.

Hypothetically.... say it’s revealed he’s Targaryen and per your words, no crime is committed. They’re going to assume he’s ascending to the Throne, no? Then he’d abdicate and then they still be pissed... “ Wow, you kill our queen then run away to the North to never be seen again? Loser!”. If that plays out, I think he ends up right back at the Nights Watch. Nothing really changes, imo. 

I believe the North, regardless of independence, has pretty much always just taken up the duties of ensuring the health and existence of the Wall / Watch.  Maybe it’s just their proximity, but I think that’s a thing. 

/hypothetical 

Would Jon prefer Winterfell, you think? I’m not so sure. Let’s not forget he voluntarily left Winterfell for the Nights Watch before. Catelyn is gone, so maybe it wouldn’t be so bad. But he never really felt like Winterfell was truly his home. Obviously he loves his cousins very much, but Sansa is the only one left in Winterfell. Sam isn’t even there... there is almost nothing for him there. So... why exactly would he be happier there?

As Tornund says, like Ghost, Jon belongs in the “True North”. I think he felt more “at home” at the Wall and with his “brothers” and beyond with the Wildlings than he ever did at Winterfell

——-/jon————

Yes, I know what Greyworm says. Let me lay out my understanding of the Unsullied because there’s a weird disconnect here and I think some of it is just poor communication on my part. 

From that entire conversation we are discussing between Greyworm and Missandei... They want to be together, Missandei wants to go back home and Greyworm seems fine in being there. Greyworm and the Unsullied would be there to protect the people of Naath while being as normal as the Unsullied can be.

That’s why I say they’re going to be more peaceful. I’m not saying they’re all settling down and becoming farmers and blacksmiths. I’m saying that they are halting the slaughter and worldwide war Dany wanted to wage... begin settling in a new place, work as a like... militia almost. Fight but fight in a defensive way. I don’t believe they are going to Naath to conquer the lands. 

Greyworm is not just the leader of the Unsullied but he works as the conduit of the Unsullied to the audience. He’s the pinnacle of what they are capable of. And his own character evolution has shown us that they can break that mindless shell of an existence. Greyworm is evidence that they can be more. It’s all just assumptions and theory at this point but I don’t think it’s crazy that they go to Naath, settle a bit, and others begin to crack and become more “normal” as well. All of them? Probably not... but Greyworm is providing them that opportunity. At least in my mind. 

In the end, the Unsullied are just broken people. They only know one thing. So to introduce them to something other than death and torture, I don’t think it’s far fetched to think others could begin to assimilate as best as they can. 

And you can call it cheesy or whatever you want. That’s your opinion, it’s fine. 

However, I think it lends more credence to what Zack was saying earlier. The reason this story (in its entirety, not just Greyworm) is so good is because these are people. Real people expressing real people/human emotion, motivation, etc etc. Not everything is super fantastical, flashy. I think this is similar to Sean calling Jon a bitch lol. 

Or even the complaints about Cersei’s death. Even I was waiting for something BIG. I really thought the show was going to make an event out of her death. Instead... they spent her final moments humanizing her. I think that speaks volumes. 

Looking and thinking back now, I think Cersei might be the most underrated aspect / character of the finale. Her character spans the entire spectrum of human emotion over the course of a single episode. 

She starts confident, strong. Which moves to this false confidence / denial. Then worry. Panic. Hysteria. Talking about her baby, selflessness and maybe even some regret. Some comfort in Jaimes arms. Then a rock caves her face in. No flashy ending... just pure, raw emotion. 

And I am NOT alluding or saying that you complained about Cersei’s death. Just using that as a further example of the “ this show is about the people” stated above. 

—————-—/greyworm——————

I don’t completely disagree with you on the Dothraki. At the very least, we should’ve probably gotten at least a throwaway line from Bran or Greyworm about their intentions or destination. 

The problem with that... we don’t know any of the Dothraki. Dany was the extent of the knowledge we had remaining of the Dothraki. And they are definitely one of the areas the show decided was a bit more irrelevant than other areas and cut back on. 

They are just kind of there. And the Unsullied would be the same way if it weren’t for Greyworm. 

Also, that changing of culture you talked about. You’re not wrong, but it sounds like you’re just kind of putting that in the writers - which I don’t think is entirely true. 

What about a female foreigner riding a dragon in front of a large khalasar and announcing that they have no Khal but should follow her as “blood riders” across the sea and conquer lands for her is at all cultural to the Dothraki? Absolutely nothing. Other than the word blood rider which has no meaning compared to the cultural appointing of three blood riders per Khal.  There’s not even a “ Blood if my Blood” chant or anything lol . They did name the episode that though haha. 

Fact of the matter is... Dany has been decimating Dothraki culture since she arrived to them. Pretty much everything she did, for her own gain, was demolishing their culture, customs, and way of life. 

With all that tearing down of their culture, I don’t think it’s extremely absurd that they are ready to move on. They proved their loyalty to Dany for long enough. And they were quick to throw their “ khal who can’t ride” under the bus. Seems like they just gravitate towards power and strong figures. They don’t have that in Westeros (and Dany killed all the great Khals anyway lol) ... not to mention that are massively outnumbered, especially without the Unsullied. Ya, I don’t think it’s crazy that they are just doing whatever now. 

Writers still need to take some of that weight , but I think the shows done a pretty decent job about showing those things. Not getting an actual ending for them... even if it was gonna be a throwaway line, falls on the writers, though. 

That terrible Tolkien scene with the book of Ice and Fire could’ve easily been a scene discussing the Dothraki. And should have been by my opinion. Fuck that stupid scene rofl. 

 

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I didn't mind that Jon ended up back with the Night's Watch, personally. I don't think I would go as far to say Jon never felt at home at Winterfell but I would agree that at this point beyond the wall is where he feels he belongs. My beef with the way they wrote Jon is that aside from the actual battle of Winterfell he was such a gigantic pussy in this season. From not backing up Sansa in the War room to all the times the only opinion or statement he has to offer is "She's muh queen or I don't want it." This is the same guy that got stabbed in the fucking heart for doing the right thing. He could have told all the Wildlings and the nights watch to get fucked and went to take Winterfell with Stannis (which likely would have ended in his death lol) and don't tell me he didn't want to be Lord of Winterfell. I feel like Jon was sacrificed to make Sansa look good and Tyrion was made to be an imbecile to strengthen other characters which is again, very unnecessary in my mind 

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59 minutes ago, seanbrock said:

Yeah I don't think Jon is just some Ned Stark clone. I think Ned is a big part of him but I don't think Ned would have tried to bring the Wildlings into the fold. That's pretty significant. He died for those people. They brought in Aemon's talk about love and duty at the end but I think a part of Jon's arch is when Aemon tells him to kill the boy and let the man live. I mean, I guess they paid that off but to me Jon had already made that change when he became Lord commander of the Nights Watch. Standing up for what's right is kind of Jon's thing, ask Samwell Tarley ha.

Let's not act like Ned was just some pussy that followed the rules no matter what though either. He defied Robert and stood his ground when he felt he had to. He was so sick of Robert's shit he almost went back to Winterfell BEFORE he found out about Cersei's bastards. Ned also broke his strict could see of honor by first hiding Jon's identity and then again by agreeing to say as he was told about Joffrey to save his daughters. 

I don’t want to argue semantics, but I think it’s important here. I never said Jon was a Ned clone. I said he’s built in the same mold — which he is. Clone implies that they’re practically identical. 

Jon makes choices along the way that Ned wouldn’t have and vice versa. They are separate people. 

But, as you mention, Ned is the single greatest influence on Jon. Jon takes those teachings to heart. 

Jon died for an unwavering loyalty and duty. Ned died for the same reasons, that and his family. “ Standing up for what’s right” isn’t a Jon thing ... it’s a largely “Stark thing” that is strongest in Ned. 

Ned could’ve easily left Kings Landing after Robert died. But he couldn’t, knowing the truth about Roberts “children”. Duty called him to action when he didn’t need to, which is also a theme Jon carries around with him. 

What code did he break by hiding Jon’s identity? I’m kind of brain farting . Like admitting to having a whore while married ? The oath he made to Lyanna, his dying sister who just gave birth, was far more important. 

He allowed his own reputation to be shat on for those he loved. Self-sacrifice. He admitted to treason to protect those he loved. Self-sacrifice.

And yeah he gets pissed at Robert but Robert is also a fat ignorant cunt... lol. It also speaks to the human element we were discussing earlier. Just because he lives by these codes, doesn’t mean he never steps out of line for a second... it doesn’t mean he doesn’t get upset or annoyed lol. 

Doing “ what is right” is so subjective anyway. Everyone pretty much thinks what they are doing is the “right” thing. Dany, Jon, Ned, Cersei... 

Ned was loyal and dutiful to a fault. Too much so, IMO. Jon shares those qualities. 

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Idk to me this is a big theme with Hollywood right now. The only way for women to be strong is if the men are dumb/helpless? Lol I don't think it's a bad thing to write strong female characters but Hollywood is just so fucking Hollywood. 

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Oh ha, I hear ya. It’s definitely a thing that’s happening, ha. I just don’t know if this is an example of that. 

Perhaps there was some back room talks to prop her up more? I mean, I don’t know, I just don’t think so. So maybe? 

I just base that off these ideas coming largely from Martin who started writing these books almost 30 years ago. It’s been in the public since 96... more than 20 years we’ve had Sansa and Jon and I just don’t feel like the dynamic was ever that way. Now I didn’t read the books back then, I didn’t start until after the show and then I also quit for a while and had to force myself to pick it up again... 

but like I said.. reading a 30 year old book, I didn’t get that vibe - dynamic and I didn’t feel that in the show either. 

Shes just a strong female character with ambitions and all that jazz. I don’t feel like there were any concessions made for her or in order to prop her up again a dumb male. 

Again, just my opinion. Not saying you're necessarily wrong. 

Edited by DalaiLama4Ever
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Well I agree with you there. Martin is like the antithesis of Hollywood which is why it took GoT so long to make it to this medium and I definitely don't think that Martin writes like that. There are numerous bad ass women in this series and it doesn't come at the expense of strong/interesting male characters. Look at Dany in the books. She's a total bad ass. She's also driven by morals that inspire people and it's why strong and capable men follow her. It's not some contrived "girl power" bullshit; it's believable.

Olenna is another good example. In the show her and Margery are the only Tyrell's with a brain or who are even remotely worth a shit (Loras's trick in the tourney of the hand was a pretty epic and hilarious move but not much outside of that) so she kind of holds their house down and represents them. In the books though her son who she wants to marry Sansa to has a bum leg but he's certainly competent and to me seems like he would be a good Lord of High Garden. I loved show Olenna as much as you did, don't get me wrong but I think it's like the Tyrell men are dumb more than it is Olenna being one of the only people in Westeros that can hold their own with Tywin (Charles Dance ftmfw btdubs lol). We could make a whole thread dedicated to how stupid and in my view, patronizing, Hollywood's concept of feminism is, though. 

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There's a difference to me between giving Jon a choice and banishing him. And no, him abdicating the Throne does not mean he would get exiled, I'm not sure where that logic comes from. It's, again, in the journey and how we get that. You'd have the same endpoint- Jon going to the True North, if he wants to- but for totally different and possibly solid reasoning. It just feels like they shoehorned in a way to get him North of the Wall.

Why would Sansa care at all what the Six think about Winterfell? For that matter, why is there even a Wall anymore? At least if your theory happened where the NK was a cyclical threat, we'd have a reason to rebuild it and re-man it. We kinda... don't. 

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On 6/3/2019 at 8:43 AM, SteVo said:

This is very true, but I want to point out a few things about The Sopranos, since I'm a Sopranos homer.

1) Many fans of the show always misunderstood it. The so-called "hits and tits" crowd thought it was a pure mob show and raged at every episode that didn't have a mob war. So they were set up for disappointment. Was the ending to the final season anticlimactic? Yes. But the concept of anticlimax had been used so often it was firmly established.

2) Sopranos had always been more thematically rich than Game of Thrones. Whereas Thrones is mostly plot-driven and doesn't go much deeper thematically than "power corrupts," Sopranos is much deeper. So of course the finale would be more challenging to viewers. Anyone who went in to that episode thinking its purpose would solely be to reveal the fate of Tony Soprano was, again, set up for disappointment.

So basically what I'm saying is the final season of Sopranos was absolutely consistent with the pacing and structure of the show up to that point. I cannot say the same about the final two seasons of Thrones.

 

Plus, everyone knows not a single black guy ever walked into a diner in Bloomfield, NJ. 

 

They were not there for the food. Bye bye Tony. 

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7 hours ago, Barracuda said:

 

Plus, everyone knows not a single black guy ever walked into a diner in Bloomfield, NJ. 

 

They were not there for the food. Bye bye Tony. 

Did they serve chicken and waffles?? Think you're making some pretty wild assumptions here.

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D&D aren't involved in any way though. There's a lot of basic background information to lay a foundation for whatever they decide to do. Have to give it a chance though.

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3 minutes ago, DalaiLama4Ever said:

D&D aren't involved in any way though. There's a lot of basic background information to lay a foundation for whatever they decide to do. Have to give it a chance though.

You do make some good points. Of course I was going to watch it whether it was good or bad at least to start ha. Same way I just have to watch all the Marvel, DC and Star Wars movies. In this way I am a total sheep lol. 

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Will be curious to see how that show plays out because it's going to be largely world-building pre-Aegon era. Way after the OG Long Night I'd assume but no idea where that's going to put us on the timeline. The Gardeners and Durrandons just dicking around if I'm not mistaken. 

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Martin has been calling it the Long Night but HBO doesn’t like that lol. We’re supposed to be getting a lot more backstory of the walkers and their creation  as a parallel story to whatever else we’re getting. 

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