Mike McGlynn: Lions and Suh are 'ignorant'

[AllYouNeedIsLovie 377]

http://espn.go.com/n...it-lions-antics

Ndamukong Suh maintains he's not a dirty player, but his actions again have drawn the ire of an opposing player.

 

The Indianapolis Star reported that Suh and his teammates were seen pointing at, laughing and dancing over the Colts' Winston Justice after the Lions defensive tackle had knocked down the Indianapolis offensive tackle following cornerback Don Carey's interceptionAndrew Luck in the fourth quarter of Detroit's loss. Justice suffered a concussion on the play.

 

"Totally ignorant on their part, just childish stuff," McGlynn told the newspaper. "We're all battling out there; I don't know if the hit was legal or not, but clearly he was hurt, and they're out there dancing and pointing at him and laughing. Just blatant disrespect. They're good players, but there's no room for that. It's disgusting, really."

 

McGlynn said Colts players would never act that way if a player on the Lions was hurt on a play.

 

"If that had happened to one of their players, we'd never do something like that. But that's what makes (the Colts' win) even sweeter. That's why they lose. I hope they never win another game," he told the newspaper.

 

The NFL can review Suh's hit on Justice but first, the league's officiating people will take a look at it to see if there was a violation. Suh was not flagged on the field for the hit. If the officiating crew deems there was a violation, it would go to Merton Hanks, the NFL's vice president for football operations, for potential discipline.

 

Suh was fined $30,000 last week for kicking Texans quarterback Matt Schaub in the groin after a play in the team's Thanksgiving Day game. He is appealing that fine.

 

He was suspended two games last season after another Thanksgiving game incident, when he stomped on the Packers' Evan Dietrich-Smith.

 

He regularly has defended his style of play and has taken offense at his reputation for being a dirty player. In an interview with ESPN that aired Sunday morning, Suh said his actions in the game against the Packers two years ago have spurred him to clean up his act.

 

"That play in my opinion is something that I made a horrible mistake," Suh told ESPN. "And I hurt my team. And I will forever be sorry about it."

 

Suh said the play has "changed me for the better."

 

"To be honest with you, it's been something that's eye-opening," he said. "It's made me focus in and understand what's most important, and that's team first. I'm a selfless player."

 

On his reputation as a dirty player, Suh told ESPN, "I don't believe it's fair."

 

"A reputation, in my opinion, is something that's always evolving, and you can't let one particular instance, or one particular act, or even one particular year to say this is this person's reputation. You gotta factor in their whole career and their whole extension of what they've come from and what they've done and really take the facts; don't just take other people's opinions," he said.

 

If this is true, then wow. Very classless. Didn't think I'd ever say this, but I am happy we ended up with McCoy instead of Suh. Not only is McCoy a classy guy, but he also is a better football player than Suh is.

Edited December 4, 2012 by ICum4Falcons

[RazorStar 4,025]

"If that had happened to one of their players, we'd never do something like that. But that's what makes (the Colts' win) even sweeter. That's why they lose. I hope they never win another game," he told the newspaper.

 

JD is that you?

[DonovanMcnabb for H.O.F 2,241]

lmao. ESPN is turning into TMZ.

 

Defensive players taunting an offensive linemen when he's on the ground, probably from getting knocked out?

 

Shame on them for not being psychic and knowing Winston had a concussion!

 

And McCoy is already a better player then Suh? Lemme guess, "Suh sucks against the run, McCoy is great against the run"?

[RazorStar 4,025]

McCoy is better than Suh because McCoy doesn't play like dog dick and isn't overhyped as fuck.

 

[AllYouNeedIsLovie 377]

lmao. ESPN is turning into TMZ.

 

Defensive players taunting an offensive linemen when he's on the ground, probably from getting knocked out?

 

Shame on them for not being psychic and knowing Winston had a concussion!

 

And McCoy is already a better player then Suh? Lemme guess, "Suh sucks against the run, McCoy is great against the run"?

 

 

The player was probably down on the ground. Suh may have not known he had a concussion, but he should have at least known the guy was hurt.

 

And Razor pretty much covered up the McCoy/Suh debate. McCoy is just a better overall player. Definitely against the run and probably at rushing the passer too.

 

Suh is dirty and very overrated. I can name multiple DT's off the top of my head who are definitely better than him, yet barely get any recognition.

[Zack_of_Steel+ 3,014]

lmao. ESPN is turning into TMZ.

 

Defensive players taunting an offensive linemen when he's on the ground, probably from getting knocked out?

 

Shame on them for not being psychic and knowing Winston had a concussion!

 

And McCoy is already a better player then Suh? Lemme guess, "Suh sucks against the run, McCoy is great against the run"?

 

Dmac, your constant defense of your favorite team is commendable, but there's got to be a line drawn somewhere. You're seriously okay with your team pointing and laughing at a player that's laying on the ground hurt after a play? That's pretty despicable behavior on the Lions' part.

[BwareDWare94 723]

Dmac, your constant defense of your favorite team is commendable, but there's got to be a line drawn somewhere. You're seriously okay with your team pointing and laughing at a player that's laying on the ground hurt after a play? That's pretty despicable behavior on the Lions' part.

 

This, he was lying on the ground hurt. Who cares if they didn't know he had a concussion? They knew he was hurt and were acting like thugs.

 

For the record, Suh is the most overrated player in the NFL.

[Omerta+ 1,206]

Said it in the last"Look at how big of an asshole Suh is thread" The guy is a special kind of asshole. Very talented asshole, but still an asshole.

 

I cant wait until his next interview and wants another chance because he is obviously not a dirty player.

[DonovanMcnabb for H.O.F 2,241]

McCoy is better than Suh because McCoy doesn't play like dog dick and isn't overhyped as fuck.

 

 

Over-hyped?

 

Yea. Suh definitely has shown how over-hyped he this year. Especially on national TV against Houston's Oline.

 

The player was probably down on the ground. Suh may have not known he had a concussion, but he should have at least known the guy was hurt.

 

And Razor pretty much covered up the McCoy/Suh debate. McCoy is just a better overall player. Definitely against the run and probably at rushing the passer too.

 

Suh is dirty and very overrated. I can name multiple DT's off the top of my head who are definitely better than him, yet barely get any recognition.

 

McCoy is not better against the run then Suh is. Just no.

 

Suh has proved multiple times that when asked to stop the run, not only can he do it, but he excels at it. Especially on short situations. And when he's not, its no coincidence that the guy lined up right next to him is.

 

And McCoy is not a better pass rusher then Suh is either. He doesn't draw the attention that Suh draws. I've seen both play this season and that's a fact. Suh draws more attention, opens up more opportunity for his teammates and has more sacks and hits on the QB.

 

Dmac, your constant defense of your favorite team is commendable, but there's got to be a line drawn somewhere. You're seriously okay with your team pointing and laughing at a player that's laying on the ground hurt after a play? That's pretty despicable behavior on the Lions' part.

 

This is literally a non story that's being made one because it's Suh, and since he's the "devil's bitch" everything he does turns into its own thread and article. The guy could get a parking ticket now and it turns into headline. Something like what happened Sunday happens like 2,3 every Sunday in at least 1 or two games.

 

The play was off a INT return where Suh made a legal pancake on the guy. They were celebrating the hit, as well as the INT. Unless if they were pointing and laughing and dancing around him, I wouldn't be saying this. But they weren't, or at least at no point did I ever see all that. It's being overblown, they were hardly even looking at him after the play was over. It's a hard hit, and then a taunt and Suh celebrating with his teammates because he knocked him out. It's football.

 

I am positive it wasn't an obvious "he's got a concussion" situation. It was a "he got knocked the fuck out" situation. I've had 6 concussions myself and I would have no business defending Suh if what McGlynn said was really what took place out their.

 

He's probably just running his mouth because Suh turned him into his personal bitch the whole game. And since everyone is now looking to take shots at Suh's reputation, he figured he might as well add on.

[Favre4Ever+ 4,476]

The only way Suh could be seen as a better run defender than McCoy is if McCoy were to lay on the field and take a nap while the Bucs were on defense... lmao

 

And did you just say that Suh was taunting and celebrating after knocking a guy out...unconscious...which is a good indicator of a concussion after saying they had no idea?

[AllYouNeedIsLovie 377]

The only way Suh could be seen as a better run defender than McCoy is if McCoy were to lay on the field and take a nap while the Bucs were on defense... lmao

 

LOL. So true.

 

McCoy is not better against the run then Suh is. Just no.

 

Suh has proved multiple times that when asked to stop the run, not only can he do it, but he excels at it. Especially on short situations. And when he's not, its no coincidence that the guy lined up right next to him is.

 

And McCoy is not a better pass rusher then Suh is either. He doesn't draw the attention that Suh draws. I've seen both play this season and that's a fact. Suh draws more attention, opens up more opportunity for his teammates and has more sacks and hits on the QB.

 

I'm having a very hard time believing the bold after reading that response.

 

Are you being serious right now, D-Mac? Have you watched a single Bucs game in the past 2 seasons? We were 4-2 last year with McCoy, and once he went down, we didn't win a game the rest of the year. Our defense was historically bad in the last 10 games of last year, and we couldn't stop the run or the pass without him.

 

Look at the team this year. We have the best run defense in the NFL. Do you think that's just a coincidence? Obviously, Lavonte David and a better run stopping scheme helped too, but Gerald McCoy is the MVP of our defense and we are absolute crap without him. This dude is a force at DT, constantly drawing double teams, and is the main reason why we have been so good at stopping the run. I can't tell you how many times this year he has blown the line up and it resulted in one of our LB's having a wide open lane to hit the RB three or four yards behind the LOS. There's a reason the Bucs lead the NFL in TFL's.

 

And Suh may appear as the better pass rusher this year, but that is because Bill Sheridan runs a scheme that does a bunch of stunts with their defensive linemen. The stunts he runs delays his pass rush by a good 2 seconds and the QB already has a nice pocket set by the time McCoy actually has a chance to go after the QB. When Sheridan lets him just go after the QB without any of the stunt crap, he is great at getting to the QB and setting others up for the sack. McCoy is being misused, but if he was used correctly, you would see him with a lot more sacks and pressures. We've seen him dominate multiple times when he's allowed to go after the QB right away.

 

 

Edited December 4, 2012 by ICum4Falcons

[DonovanMcnabb for H.O.F 2,241]

The only way Suh could be seen as a better run defender than McCoy is if McCoy were to lay on the field and take a nap while the Bucs were on defense... lmao

 

And did you just say that Suh was taunting and celebrating after knocking a guy out...unconscious...which is a good indicator of a concussion after saying they had no idea?

 

You specialize at taking things and making it sound 2 times worse then it actually is.

 

He pancakes him, gets up, celebrate with his teammates, gets off of the field. End of story.

 

There was no dancing around the guy, their was no excessive celebration, maybe he says something like "get up!" or something in a taunting fashion but everyone does that after a hard hit. Excuse Suh for not getting up, properly examining the player on the ground, doing concussion tests before proceeding to celebrate a hit with his teammates because he just got a huge hit. lmao.

 

There's only ONE person calling Suh out for this. Coincidentally, that was the same one person who Suh was beating like a drum every time they were in any one on one situations.

 

Even their own coach came out saying that Suh was probably just celebrating the block. Like I said, it happens every week, every game, at least once. A guy makes a play, gets up and celebrates. Moving on.

 

LOL. So true.

 

 

 

I'm having a very hard time believing the bold after reading that response.

 

Are you being serious right now, D-Mac? Have you watched a single Bucs game in the past 2 seasons? We were 4-2 last year with McCoy, and once he went down, we didn't win a game the rest of the year. Our defense was historically bad in the last 10 games of last year, and we couldn't stop the run or the pass without him.

 

Look at the team this year. We have the best run defense in the NFL. Do you think that's just a coincidence? Obviously, Lavonte David and a better run stopping scheme helped too, but Gerald McCoy is the MVP of our defense and we are absolute crap without him. This dude is a force at DT, constantly drawing double teams, and is the main reason why we have been so good at stopping the run. I can't tell you how many times this year he has blown the line up and it resulted in one of our LB's having a wide open lane to hit the RB three or four yards behind the LOS. There's a reason the Bucs lead the NFL in TFL's.

 

And Suh may appear as the better pass rusher this year, but that is because Bill Sheridan runs a scheme that does a bunch of stunts with their defensive linemen. The stunts he runs delays his pass rush by a good 2 seconds and the QB already has a nice pocket set by the time McCoy actually has a chance to go after the QB. When Sheridan lets him just go after the QB without any of the stunt crap, he is great at getting to the QB and setting others up for the sack. McCoy is being misused, but if he was used correctly, you would see him with a lot more sacks and pressures. We've seen him dominate multiple times when he's allowed to go after the QB right away.

 

Oh! I get it, so you say that McCoy is the better player because he makes a huge impact? Hm. That's interesting! Great job pimping your DT. lmao.

 

It's too bad we don't have a DT on our defense that can make everyone around him better... Oh Wait.

 

And that last statement is kinda dumb. McCoy is the better pass rusher... He just hasn't shown it yet?

[AllYouNeedIsLovie 377]

You specialize at taking things and making it sound 2 times worse then it actually is.

 

He pancakes him, gets up, celebrate with his teammates, gets off of the field. End of story.

 

There was no dancing around the guy, their was no excessive celebration, maybe he says something like "get up!" or something in a taunting fashion but everyone does that after a hard hit. Excuse Suh for not getting up, properly examining the player on the ground, doing concussion tests before proceeding to celebrate a hit with his teammates because he just got a huge hit. lmao.

 

There's only ONE person calling Suh out for this. Coincidentally, that was the same one person who Suh was beating like a drum every time they were in any one on one situations.

 

Even their own coach came out saying that Suh was probably just celebrating the block. Like I said, it happens every week, every game, at least once. A guy makes a play, gets up and celebrates. Moving on.

 

 

 

Oh! I get it, so you say that McCoy is the better player because he makes a huge impact? Hm. That's interesting! Great job pimping your DT. lmao.

 

It's too bad we don't have a DT on our defense that can make everyone around him better... Oh Wait.

 

And that last statement is kinda dumb. McCoy is the better pass rusher... He just hasn't shown it yet?

 

Suh is good, but he still doesn't have the same impact on the Lions that McCoy has on the Bucs. Like I said, look at the Bucs last year. I have a hard time believing the Lions would be that much worse without Suh.

 

I haven't seen as much as Suh as I have McCoy obviously, but from what I have seen this year, McCoy has been the more dominant player, despite having 2 of his DE's out for most of the year. Pretty sure PFF has McCoy ranked as the #2 DT in the NFL behind Geno Atkins too.

 

McCoy is definitely a better run stopper than Suh and if he isn't a better pass rusher, he's damn close. I would love to see him play a full season without having to run stupid stunts all the time. McCoy's the better player

 

 

[DonovanMcnabb for H.O.F 2,241]

Suh is good, but he still doesn't have the same impact on the Lions that McCoy has on the Bucs. Like I said, look at the Bucs last year. I have a hard time believing the Lions would be that much worse without Suh.

 

I haven't seen as much as Suh as I have McCoy obviously, but from what I have seen this year, McCoy has been the more dominant player, despite having 2 of his DE's out for most of the year. Pretty sure PFF has McCoy ranked as the #2 DT in the NFL behind Geno Atkins too.

 

McCoy is definitely a better run stopper than Suh and if he isn't a better pass rusher, he's damn close. I would love to see him play a full season without having to run stupid stunts all the time. McCoy's the better player

 

Using PFF doesn't help your case. At all. They aren't even close in terms of pass rush right now, and the only reason why Suh is literally right behind McCoy is because of run defense.

 

Their grading system has been proved to be very flawed time and time again.

 

Their run defense doesn't take into account the fact that Suh is schematically asked to penetrate with a disregard of whether its a run or not. Like I said before, when he's been asked to handle the run he's excelled. The Lions are great on 3rd and 4th down and short run plays in large part because of Suh. When he isn't making the play the guy right next to him or right behind him makes the play.

 

The idea that McCoy is better against the run is laughable, and the only reason it holds weight is because the Lions defense is based on penetration, not reading and reacting. Which makes Suh less consistent in that area.

 

And even in that aspect, he has made so many more plays behind the line of scrimmage compared to McCoy that it makes your "Suh hasn't looked more dominant" statement even more laughable.

 

McCoy isn't the better player. Like I said, Suh handles more blockers on any given play and still produces a rush. Avril had been in that same wide nine a year before Suh joined the team, and he has been far more effective since. It's no coincidence either that he just so happens to play right next to Suh.

 

They aren't even close as pass rushers. The only area online where you can find a stat that makes you think they are close is hurries, and that's a questionable stat that only PFF measures, and have the tendency to inflate like crazy, and even their McCoy only has 4 more then Suh.

Edited December 5, 2012 by DonovanMcnabb for H.O.F

[AllYouNeedIsLovie 377]

Using PFF doesn't help your case. At all. They aren't even close in terms of pass rush right now, and the only reason why Suh is literally right behind McCoy is because of run defense.

 

Their grading system has been proved to be very flawed time and time again.

 

Their run defense doesn't take into account the fact that Suh is schematically asked to penetrate with a disregard of whether its a run or not. Like I said before, when he's been asked to handle the run he's excelled. The Lions are great on 3rd and 4th down and short run plays in large part because of Suh. When he isn't making the play the guy right next to him or right behind him makes the play.

 

The idea that McCoy is better against the run is laughable, and the only reason it holds weight is because the Lions defense is based on penetration, not reading and reacting. Which makes Suh less consistent in that area.

 

And even in that aspect, he has made so many more plays behind the line of scrimmage compared to McCoy that it makes your "Suh hasn't looked more dominant" statement even more laughable.

 

McCoy isn't the better player. Like I said, Suh handles more blockers on any given play and still produces a rush. Avril had been in that same wide nine a year before Suh joined the team, and he has been far more effective since. It's no coincidence either that he just so happens to play right next to Suh.

 

They aren't even close as pass rushers. The only area online where you can find a stat that makes you think they are close is hurries, and that's a questionable stat that only PFF measures, and have the tendency to inflate like crazy, and even their McCoy only has 4 more then Suh.

And I'm sure PFF doesn't take the stunts that McCoy has to do all the time into effect either, yet he still has a better rating. What's your point?

 

It seems like McCoy and Suh are asked to do opposite things. Suh is asked to penetrate the line and go after the QB, while McCoy is asked to do stunts and make sure the run is getting stopped. Detroit's D is middle of the pack in the NFL for sacks with 27. The Bucs have the #1 rush defense in the NFL and lead the NFL in TFL. It seems to me like McCoy is doing his job better.

 

So, when McCoy is not there, our run D is the worst in the NFL. The next year, when he is there, our run is the best in the NFL. And you think it is laughable that I consider him a better run stopper than Suh, who according to you doesn't even get many opportunities to stop the run?

 

LOL, dude are you serious? Where the hell are you getting that Suh makes more plays behind the LOS than McCoy? The Bucs lead the NFL in plays made behind the LOS. And guess what? Gerald McCoy is a huge reason for that. McCoy may not be accounted for the plays in the box score, but he is bursting through the line and allowing other guys to make the play. There's plenty video evidence of it if you want to see it.

 

And where are you getting that Suh takes up more blockers than McCoy does? McCoy faces double teams most of the time like Suh does. Sometimes he struggles, but no one else on our line does much with the 1-1 matchups they get besides Michael Bennett. And speaking of Michael Bennett, what a breakout year he has had. I wonder why he is breaking out the same year McCoy has stayed on the field?

 

If hurries aren't an important stat, then what the hell are you using for pass rushing stats? Hurries are a very important stat, IMO. McCoy has more than Suh? LOL, wow... McCoy gets screwed having to do stunts all the time and is still getting more pressure on the QB than Suh, despite Bowers and Clayborn not being there most of the year. And according to you, Suh has a shit ton of opportunities to get to the QB because of the scheme.

Edited December 5, 2012 by ICum4Falcons

[Favre4Ever+ 4,476]

You specialize at taking things and making it sound 2 times worse then it actually is.

 

Except... I just used. Your wording.

 

You:

It's a hard hit, and then a taunt and Suh celebrating with his teammates because he knocked him out.

 

Me:

And did you just say that Suh was taunting and celebrating after knocking a guy out...unconscious...which is a good indicator of a concussion after saying they had no idea?

 

A hard hit. Taunting. Celebrating. All because he knocked him out.

 

He pancakes him, gets up, celebrate with his teammates, gets off of the field. End of story.

 

Suh doesn't know the guy is hurt. Suh celebrates with his teammates for knocking him out. Suh taunts. Suh doesn't taunt.

 

The only thing I am sure of, is that you have absolutely NO IDEA what you saw or what actually happened that day. You say what you want, when you want, and bend the real events to make Suh sound like more of a peach than he is.

[DonovanMcnabb for H.O.F 2,241]

And I'm sure PFF doesn't take the stunts that McCoy has to do all the time into effect either, yet he still has a better rating. What's your point?

 

It seems like McCoy and Suh are asked to do opposite things. Suh is asked to penetrate the line and go after the QB, while McCoy is asked to do stunts and make sure the run is getting stopped. Detroit's D is middle of the pack in the NFL for sacks with 27. The Bucs have the #1 rush defense in the NFL and lead the NFL in TFL. It seems to me like McCoy is doing his job better.

 

So, when McCoy is not there, our run D is the worst in the NFL. The next year, when he is there, our run is the best in the NFL. And you think it is laughable that I consider him a better run stopper than Suh, who according to you doesn't even get many opportunities to stop the run?

 

lol. You are really starting to stretch it here.

 

Since you wanna keep running with PFF to back up your case lemme give you some more of PFF's numbers so you can explain that to me.

 

Of his 12 games thus far into the season he's only managed to grade above a "1" in run defense 5 times. His run defense grade doesn't even put him in the top 10 among defensive lineman. For a guy who's supposedly magically changed the entire run defense by himself with "little" help from everyone else, that's not very impressive. At all.

 

Run defense more then any other aspect of the game is a team aspect. It doesn't matter how well you do your job, if the guys behind you don't do theirs it won't make a difference. You can keep trying to use the "he turned our run defense around to elite all by himself" all you want but it doesn't prove much at all in terms of who the better run defender is.

 

By that same site, Geno Atkins has a far higher grade then McCoy in run defense. McCoy is probably a whole lot better run defender then him if we are going by your standards.

 

LOL, dude are you serious? Where the hell are you getting that Suh makes more plays behind the LOS than McCoy? The Bucs lead the NFL in plays made behind the LOS. And guess what? Gerald McCoy is a huge reason for that. McCoy may not be accounted for the plays in the box score, but he is bursting through the line and allowing other guys to make the play. There's plenty video evidence of it if you want to see it.

 

And where are you getting that Suh takes up more blockers than McCoy does? McCoy faces double teams most of the time like Suh does. Sometimes he struggles, but no one else on our line does much with the 1-1 matchups they get besides Michael Bennett. And speaking of Michael Bennett, what a breakout year he has had. I wonder why he is breaking out the same year McCoy has stayed on the field?

 

If hurries aren't an important stat, then what the hell are you using for pass rushing stats? Hurries are a very important stat, IMO. McCoy has more than Suh? LOL, wow... McCoy gets screwed having to do stunts all the time and is still getting more pressure on the QB than Suh, despite Bowers and Clayborn not being there most of the year. And according to you, Suh has a shit ton of opportunities to get to the QB because of the scheme.

 

Questionable =/= unimportant.

 

And unlike with run defense that is more dependent on a team effort, pass defense isn't.

 

Hurries are great when put under context, but PFF, has been notorious for inflating hurries. It's almost gotten to the point where it's as obvious as night and day that they consider everything to be a hurry. As much as getting to the QB and taping him after the ball is gone is considered by PFF.

 

Hits and sacks are a better measurement of defensive success because hits means you are either hitting him right after he throws the ball or are in the process. Hurries, unlike hits can be a very subjective stat. A lot of different people can define a "hurry" differently and what they see. A QB hit is a QB hit as he's releasing the ball. Which is the reason why only PFF, and no other advanced metrics sites use that stat. And once again, he only has 4 more then Suh. It's a huge discrepant in #s on QB hits though. Which is more indicative.

 

Suh has more stops, hits, sacks, stuffs, TFLs then McCoy. He makes more plays. And that's with McCoy playing 66 more snaps.

 

PFF has Suh with more hits then even Geno Atkins, Von Miller, Aldon Smith. Advanced NFL stats has him ranked in the top 5 among defensive players in QB hits.

 

You can keep trying to harp about how McCoy cause a lot of disruptions by penetrating, but the same applies to Suh. He has been one of the most disruptive front seven player this year. Which is why I get such a kick from all you guys claiming Suh is "over-hyped" "Overrated". Go actually watch the guy play and stop hating.

 

And I have seen McCoy play three times now, against KC, Oakland and Minn, and in all three, he did not see the double teams that you keep bringing up. Plus, news flash: It becomes kinda impossible to double team a guy as much as you keep saying he gets doubled when he stunts a lot. That's a huge advantage to rushing the passer that you decide to leave out.

Edited December 5, 2012 by DonovanMcnabb for H.O.F

[DonovanMcnabb for H.O.F 2,241]

Except... I just used. Your wording.

 

You:

 

 

Me:

 

 

A hard hit. Taunting. Celebrating. All because he knocked him out.

 

 

 

Suh doesn't know the guy is hurt. Suh celebrates with his teammates for knocking him out. Suh taunts. Suh doesn't taunt.

 

The only thing I am sure of, is that you have absolutely NO IDEA what you saw or what actually happened that day. You say what you want, when you want, and bend the real events to make Suh sound like more of a peach than he is.

 

How many times do players knock out other players and celebrate afterwards from the hit?

 

Once again, all the time.

 

Are they always concussed? No. But that's irrelevant. Suh and co. didn't know he was concussed, and probably didn't care. Shame on them.

[AllYouNeedIsLovie 377]

lol. You are really starting to stretch it here.

 

Since you wanna keep running with PFF to back up your case lemme give you some more of PFF's numbers so you can explain that to me.

 

Of his 12 games thus far into the season he's only managed to grade above a "1" in run defense 5 times. His run defense grade doesn't even put him in the top 10 among defensive lineman. For a guy who's supposedly magically changed the entire run defense by himself with "little" help from everyone else, that's not very impressive. At all.

 

Run defense more then any other aspect of the game is a team aspect. It doesn't matter how well you do your job, if the guys behind you don't do theirs it won't make a difference. You can keep trying to use the "he turned our run defense around to elite all by himself" all you want but it doesn't prove much at all in terms of who the better run defender is.

 

By that same site, Geno Atkins has a far higher grade then McCoy in run defense. McCoy is probably a whole lot better run defender then him if we are going by your standards.

 

Quote from PFT:

The first reason is that a play can be impacted without making a tackle. Gerald McCoy is a player this can be said about. His run grade is sixth among defensive tackles yet he has only made 10 stops and is 80th in Run Stop Percentage.

6th among DT's. I'd like to know who the other one's are and what defense they play in. This quote also shows that he may not have the stats for it, but he's setting up the other guys on our D to make the tackle. Ask any Buc fan. They will all agree that McCoy is a huge factor in why our run D is so good this year.

 

Questionable =/= unimportant.

 

And unlike with run defense that is more dependent on a team effort, pass defense isn't.

 

Hurries are great when put under context, but PFF, has been notorious for inflating hurries. It's almost gotten to the point where it's as obvious as night and day that they consider everything to be a hurry. As much as getting to the QB and taping him after the ball is gone is considered by PFF.

 

Hits and sacks are a better measurement of defensive success because hits means you are either hitting him right after he throws the ball or are in the process. Hurries, unlike hits can be a very subjective stat. A lot of different people can define a "hurry" differently and what they see. A QB hit is a QB hit as he's releasing the ball. Which is the reason why only PFF, and no other advanced metrics sites use that stat. And once again, he only has 4 more then Suh. It's a huge discrepant in #s on QB hits though. Which is more indicative.

 

Suh has more stops, hits, sacks, stuffs, TFLs then McCoy. He makes more plays. And that's with McCoy playing 66 more snaps.

 

PFF has Suh with more hits then even Geno Atkins, Von Miller, Aldon Smith. Advanced NFL stats has him ranked in the top 5 among defensive players in QB hits.

 

You can keep trying to harp about how McCoy cause a lot of disruptions by penetrating, but the same applies to Suh. He has been one of the most disruptive front seven player this year. Which is why I get such a kick from all you guys claiming Suh is "over-hyped" "Overrated". Go actually watch the guy play and stop hating.

 

And I have seen McCoy play three times now, against KC, Oakland and Minn, and in all three, he did not see the double teams that you keep bringing up. Plus, news flash: It becomes kinda impossible to double team a guy as much as you keep saying he gets doubled when he stunts a lot. That's a huge advantage to rushing the passer that you decide to leave out.

 

Pass defense isn't a team effort? You can't be serious here. If your secondary blows and receivers are always wide open, your linemen don't have much time to get to the QB. And guess what? The Bucs secondary is the worst in the NFL and we have a bunch of scrubs and UDFA's playing.

 

 

You're mentioning how Suh has more hits, sacks, stuffs, TFL, etc. but like I said those stats do not mean he is better. McCoy isn't making all of these plays, but he is blowing up plays and setting up others for an easy TFL or sack which is just as good. Like I said, there is a reason the Bucs lead the NFL in TFL (and I think negative yard plays in general). McCoy is setting these guys up.

 

Suh may have made a few more actual plays, but McCoy is disrupting more and the team stats showing the Bucs leading the NFL in negative yardage plays shows that he is. Look at the guys McCoy has around him. All of them were scrubs last year, except Michael Bennett who was just decent. With McCoy in the lineup, all of these guys in the front 7 improved and he's making scrubs like Roy Miller and Daniel Teo-Neshiam look like decent players.

 

McCoy's been double teamed by most teams. I'm not sure what to tell you. Guess I'll have to get some video evidence to show you.

[DonovanMcnabb for H.O.F 2,241]

Quote from PFT:

6th among DT's. I'd like to know who the other one's are and what defense they play in. This quote also shows that he may not have the stats for it, but he's setting up the other guys on our D to make the tackle. Ask any Buc fan. They will all agree that McCoy is a huge factor in why our run D is so good this year.

 

And nobody is denying that. But that doesn't make him the better run defender then Suh.

 

He's tied for 4th among DTs in PFF run grade with Casey, Atkins, Williams, Justin Bannan being higher and Mebane being tied. Of all those guys I just named off, all of them but 2 have at least 20 stops on the season. Bannan who's only played 440 snaps, and McCoy, who leads all DTs in snaps.

 

Pass defense isn't a team effort? You can't be serious here. If your secondary blows and receivers are always wide open, your linemen don't have much time to get to the QB. And guess what? The Bucs secondary is the worst in the NFL and we have a bunch of scrubs and UDFA's playing.

 

I'm not saying that pass defense isn't a team effort in the sense that it doesn't require a team to be good at it. It isn't a team effort in that on any given play, a player can make a bigger impact individually on a pass play then on a run play.

 

Against the run even if a DT makes a perfect fit in his gap and forces the HB to cut back somewhere else where the play is made, the guy who's supposed to make the play still needs to shed his blocker, still needs to make the proper read and finish the tackle.

 

Against the pass if the DT gets around his man and so much as hits the QB while he's throwing the ball, the chances of him impacting that play is way higher then it is on any given run play. There are so many more variables that go into a having a great run game, scheme, LB being two of the biggest.

 

The fact that you use McCoy's impact on the run game as to your reasoning as to why Suh isn't better against the run is faulty in that,

 

1. No one defensive player can make as much of an impact as you claim McCoy is making and not make more plays against the run himself. The way you are making it sound he should at least have more TFL then Suh, or stops. Neither is the case.

 

2. PFF, the site that you apparently hold in high regards doesn't have his run grade as all that impressive considering you are pimping his run game so much, at 9.9. Geno Atkins' rating against the run is 5 points higher then McCoy, yet they have the 20th run defense, Casey has the highest run grade among DTs yet the Titans give up 4.3 YPC, conversely, no run game can be #1 based on just how one guy is performing. No one individual's run defense can be that impactful yet he himself makes so little plays in the run game. PFF has him at 16 stops, 3 of them are probably sacks. That doesn't even put him among the top 20 among DTs. Total run defense is a team stat that's more explaining of a team's performance. Not an individual.

 

3. Suh himself isn't asked to worry about the run, but when he has been he has excelled at causing plays when not probably blocked. And when he isn't, the guy right next to him is. No matter if it's Fairley or SLH.

 

You're mentioning how Suh has more hits, sacks, stuffs, TFL, etc. but like I said those stats do not mean he is better. McCoy isn't making all of these plays, but he is blowing up plays and setting up others for an easy TFL or sack which is just as good. Like I said, there is a reason the Bucs lead the NFL in TFL (and I think negative yard plays in general). McCoy is setting these guys up.

 

See above post.

 

That just doesn't happen. No DT, first line of defense can set up his teamnates that much, and in return make very little impact himself unless if he's a NT, or is eating multiple blockers on every player. The latter isn't the case with McCoy.

 

Suh may have made a few more actual plays, but McCoy is disrupting more and the team stats showing the Bucs leading the NFL in negative yardage plays shows that he is. Look at the guys McCoy has around him. All of them were scrubs last year, except Michael Bennett who was just decent. With McCoy in the lineup, all of these guys in the front 7 improved and he's making scrubs like Roy Miller and Daniel Teo-Neshiam look like decent players.

 

McCoy's been double teamed by most teams. I'm not sure what to tell you. Guess I'll have to get some video evidence to show you.

 

A few more actual plays? No. McCoy has 4 more hurries. Outside of that, every other meaningful stat that would show who's more disruptive it's Suh by a landslide when you consider the position they play.

 

That tells you all you need to know.

[AllYouNeedIsLovie 377]

And nobody is denying that. But that doesn't make him the better run defender then Suh.

 

He's tied for 4th among DTs in PFF run grade with Casey, Atkins, Williams, Justin Bannan being higher and Mebane being tied. Of all those guys I just named off, all of them but 2 have at least 20 stops on the season. Bannan who's only played 440 snaps, and McCoy, who leads all DTs in snaps.

 

I'm not saying that pass defense isn't a team effort in the sense that it doesn't require a team to be good at it. It isn't a team effort in that on any given play, a player can make a bigger impact individually on a pass play then on a run play.

 

Against the run even if a DT makes a perfect fit in his gap and forces the HB to cut back somewhere else where the play is made, the guy who's supposed to make the play still needs to shed his blocker, still needs to make the proper read and finish the tackle.

 

Against the pass if the DT gets around his man and so much as hits the QB while he's throwing the ball, the chances of him impacting that play is way higher then it is on any given run play. There are so many more variables that go into a having a great run game, scheme, LB being two of the biggest.

 

The fact that you use McCoy's impact on the run game as to your reasoning as to why Suh isn't better against the run is faulty in that

 

1. No one defensive player can make as much of an impact as you claim McCoy is making and not make more plays against the run himself. The way you are making it sound he should at least have more TFL then Suh, or stops. Neither is the case.

 

And when a DT is blowing up the line and creating big holes for the LB's to get the RB, it makes the LB's job a hell of a lot easier. All they have to do is make the tackle.

 

Alright, if it's not McCoy, then who is it? Who is making the impact in our run defense that has made improved it so much in 1 year? The only new guys on the front 7 this year are McCoy and David. David is good, but LB's aren't able to make plays when the d-line doesn't do its job. Bucs fans saw that last year with Mason Foster. Our run D was doing well the first 6 games when McCoy was in and Foster was playing great, but once McCoy went down, his play dropped dramatically as did the rest of the defense.

 

I just don't understand who else it could be after looking at that. It isn't just a coincidence that the run D plays so much better when he's in. If you watched a lot of Bucs games, you would see how good he really is.

 

2. PFF, the site that you apparently hold in high regards doesn't have his run grade as all that impressive considering you are pimping his run game so much, at 9.9. Geno Atkins' rating against the run is 5 points higher then McCoy, yet they have the 20th run defense, Casey has the highest run grade among DTs yet the Titans give up 4.3 YPC, conversely, no run game can be #1 based on just how one guy is performing. No one individual's run defense can be that impactful yet he himself makes so little plays in the run game. PFF has him at 16 stops, 3 of them are probably sacks. That doesn't even put him among the top 20 among DTs. Total run defense is a team stat that's more explaining of a team's performance. Not an individual.

 

3. Suh himself isn't asked to worry about the run, but when he has been he has excelled at causing plays when not probably blocked. And when he isn't, the guy right next to him is. No matter if it's Fairley or SLH.

 

That just doesn't happen. No DT, first line of defense can set up his teamnates that much, and in return make very little impact himself unless if he's a NT, or is eating multiple blockers on every player. The latter isn't the case with McCoy.

 

A few more actual plays? No. McCoy has 4 more hurries. Outside of that, every other meaningful stat that would show who's more disruptive it's Suh by a landslide when you consider the position they play.

 

That tells you all you need to know.

 

I have a hard time believing Suh excels in run D seeing as the Lions rank in the bottom half of the league in run defense and give up 4.6 YPC...

 

 

As I have stated multiple times already, I don't care about these stats. He may not be making as many actual plays that go in the statbook as Suh does, but McCoy is setting up others all the time, which is just as good and he does it more often than Suh as shown by our team leading the league in negative yardage plays.

 

The Bucs run D started sucking last year when McCoy got hurt and ended up finishing as the worst unit in the NFL. McCoy comes back this year, and the only new addition to the front 7 was Lavonte David, who as I stated before could not be having as good of a season as he is without good play by the d-line. Now we have the best run D in the NFL and lead the NFL in the negative yardage plays.

 

Are you really telling me this is because of us adding Lavonte David and not McCoy coming back from his injury? I understand the new defensive scheme plays a part, but it still wouldn't be as effective as it without McCoy.

[RG3 0]

Suh better watch his antics or some lineman will take his ass out. Players won't keep putting up this kinda crap.

[funnygunny 521]

i'd like to see that ^

[DonovanMcnabb for H.O.F 2,241]

And when a DT is blowing up the line and creating big holes for the LB's to get the RB, it makes the LB's job a hell of a lot easier. All they have to do is make the tackle.

 

Alright, if it's not McCoy, then who is it? Who is making the impact in our run defense that has made improved it so much in 1 year? The only new guys on the front 7 this year are McCoy and David. David is good, but LB's aren't able to make plays when the d-line doesn't do its job. Bucs fans saw that last year with Mason Foster. Our run D was doing well the first 6 games when McCoy was in and Foster was playing great, but once McCoy went down, his play dropped dramatically as did the rest of the defense.

 

I just don't understand who else it could be after looking at that. It isn't just a coincidence that the run D plays so much better when he's in. If you watched a lot of Bucs games, you would see how good he really is.

 

It's pretty obvious at this point that it's a scheme change as well as putting more emphasis as a team on stopping the run.

 

The games I saw, Miller, or whoever was lined up at NT would be literally lined up right in front of the center, and even when he wasn't, he'd come off and hit the center first. That's a tilt position, and when the NT is played at the tilt position its #1 purpose is to effect the running game.

 

That in itself has probably even a bigger impact on all the negative runs then anything McCoy does. Look up yourself about any scheme that involves a tilt NT and it will tell you all you need to know. Or, look at Stanford's rushing stats over the past couple of seasons.

 

I have a hard time believing Suh excels in run D seeing as the Lions rank in the bottom half of the league in run defense and give up 4.6 YPC...

 

It's been stated so many times now to the point where it's the definition of a cliche. YPC is an awful way to judge Suh's impact ob the run because of the defense that's ran. Plain and simple.

 

It's almost common sense at this point. You tell a defensive lineman to run up the field and wreak havoc, it'll result in teams running it right underneath the linemen. Regardless of how big and strong that linemen is.

 

As I have stated multiple times already, I don't care about these stats. He may not be making as many actual plays that go in the statbook as Suh does, but McCoy is setting up others all the time, which is just as good and he does it more often than Suh as shown by our team leading the league in negative yardage plays.

 

The Bucs run D started sucking last year when McCoy got hurt and ended up finishing as the worst unit in the NFL. McCoy comes back this year, and the only new addition to the front 7 was Lavonte David, who as I stated before could not be having as good of a season as he is without good play by the d-line. Now we have the best run D in the NFL and lead the NFL in the negative yardage plays.

 

Are you really telling me this is because of us adding Lavonte David and not McCoy coming back from his injury? I understand the new defensive scheme plays a part, but it still wouldn't be as effective as it without McCoy.

 

And as I've stated multiple times now, changes like that in a team's performance from one year to the next is never going to be due to one individual. Especially when that one individual is primarily a one gap 4-3 3-tech. And if that's the case the DT will almost always make a ton of plays himself against the run. Which is far from the case with McCoy.

 

It's a scheme change as well as a mentality change within the defense. Plain and simple. Does having a good player like McCoy help? Absolutely, but you are sending too much credit to the wrong person/people.

 

And its laughable to think that if a guy like Suh who we've seen bench press guards in the past in both the NFL and college football. Who excelled at stopping the run in college and was widely viewed as being the better run defender between him and McCoy wouldn't be able to have the impact McCoy is having in the run game if he was asked to. I'd venture as far as to say he'd be doing even better then McCoy is against the run.

 

At this point the only argument that you have for McCoy being a better player is that "he sets his teammates up better". And that really isn't an argument at all. Or, like I said before, by that same logic, McCoy should be better then a lot of the guys who are widely considered better then both the guys we are talking about. You are essentially using a team stat to back up your argument as to why an individual player is better then another. If he was the better player there'd be at the least one individual stat that proves that... But there's none. Nothing. The two guys aren't even comparable right now.

[AllYouNeedIsLovie 377]

It's pretty obvious at this point that it's a scheme change as well as putting more emphasis as a team on stopping the run.

 

The games I saw, Miller, or whoever was lined up at NT would be literally lined up right in front of the center, and even when he wasn't, he'd come off and hit the center first. That's a tilt position, and when the NT is played at the tilt position its #1 purpose is to effect the running game.

 

That in itself has probably even a bigger impact on all the negative runs then anything McCoy does. Look up yourself about any scheme that involves a tilt NT and it will tell you all you need to know. Or, look at Stanford's rushing stats over the past couple of seasons.

 

So, you're saying the scheme has turned us from the worst run D to the best run D? Like I said, I think it definitely has played a part, but the scheme wouldn't be as effective as it is if it weren't for McCoy making the plays he is. If this scheme is so good at stopping the run and it doesn't matter what players are in it, why don't more teams do it?

 

 

It's been stated so many times now to the point where it's the definition of a cliche. YPC is an awful way to judge Suh's impact ob the run because of the defense that's ran. Plain and simple.

 

It's almost common sense at this point. You tell a defensive lineman to run up the field and wreak havoc, it'll result in teams running it right underneath the linemen. Regardless of how big and strong that linemen is.

 

And this is exactly what I am saying about McCoy, yet you throw out stats saying why Suh is the better player. Suh may have more sacks, pressures and all that stuff, but, like you said, he is let loose to go after the QB every play. McCoy is stuck doing stunts all the time which delays him getting up the field to make the actual plays that puts him in the box score. If Suh is asked to go after the QB almost every play, he should have better stats than McCoy because McCoy isn't. It's just common sense. Doesn't make him the better player. And for a guy who is going after the QB every play, Suh's numbers aren't anything spectacular and the Lions still seem to be struggling with getting pressure on the QB.

 

 

And as I've stated multiple times now, changes like that in a team's performance from one year to the next is never going to be due to one individual. Especially when that one individual is primarily a one gap 4-3 3-tech. And if that's the case the DT will almost always make a ton of plays himself against the run. Which is far from the case with McCoy.

 

It's a scheme change as well as a mentality change within the defense. Plain and simple. Does having a good player like McCoy help? Absolutely, but you are sending too much credit to the wrong person/people.

 

And its laughable to think that if a guy like Suh who we've seen bench press guards in the past in both the NFL and college football. Who excelled at stopping the run in college and was widely viewed as being the better run defender between him and McCoy wouldn't be able to have the impact McCoy is having in the run game if he was asked to. I'd venture as far as to say he'd be doing even better then McCoy is against the run.

 

At this point the only argument that you have for McCoy being a better player is that "he sets his teammates up better". And that really isn't an argument at all. Or, like I said before, by that same logic, McCoy should be better then a lot of the guys who are widely considered better then both the guys we are talking about. You are essentially using a team stat to back up your argument as to why an individual player is better then another. If he was the better player there'd be at the least one individual stat that proves that... But there's none. Nothing. The two guys aren't even comparable right now.

 

And at this point, your argument is that a defensive scheme has turned around a defense from being the worst against the run to best against the run in the league. That sounds a lot more silly to me than saying McCoy is the reason for it, especially as we actually had a decent run D last year before McCoy went down.

 

McCoy plays DT, a run stopping position. Our run D just happens to play a shit ton better when he is out there and there is plenty of video evidence out there showing him wrecking o-lines and making plays for other people on our D. So, I believe using that team stat is very valid.

 

How could you possibly still say that Suh is better against the run? Everything points to McCoy being the better run defender. You've even said Suh isn't asked to stop the run. Do you think me, PFF and multiple other people are just making this shit up that McCoy is having such a big impact on the D? He's obviously not the sole reason we've made the turn around, but he's been the most important part.