Tebow speaking at offensive church

[blotsfan 2,112]

http://touch.latimes.com/#section/-1/article/p2p-74469489/

 

I have been a Tebow supporter for a while but I can't believe he would do this. If he speaks there I'm done sticking up for him.

[Thanatos 2,847]

Rev. Jeffress is one of those Christians that are rightly labeled "Bible-thumpers." They use their position of power in the pulpit to spread their ideas, forgetting that their congregation is going to take what they say and double its intensity.

 

Speak the truth in love. Not only is some of what he says flat out false, it does nothing towards the end goal of evangelizing people. Is telling a homosexual he is a perverted individual that is more likely to do other sins than yourself going to at all open a window to witness to that man? He's going to throw up defenses faster than you can blink, and then he's going to tell all his friends what a douche that Christian pastor down the road was. This is of course besides the fact that it is completely in error biblically.

 

We are all sinners and all have fallen short of the glory of God. Rev. Jeffress needs to remember, "There, but for the grace of God, go I." His way of preaching would lead me, were I a member of his congregation who did not double check him against the Bible, to believe I was somehow superior to a homosexual, that I was better than they are. It is precisely this attitude that turns so many people off of Christianity, because many of us come across as arrogant, holier-than-thous.

 

The end-goal of preaching is to proselytize. Jeffress is failing miserably at that.

[BLUE 1,026]

Posted by Darin Gantt on February 21, 2013, 11:13 AM EST

 

Tim Tebow still wants to spread his word, but some churches are apparently too politically hot for him to handle.

 

Via USA Today, Tebow had been scheduled to appear April 28 at First Baptist Church Dallas, the megachurch of Robert Jeffress, whose views on other religions and homosexuality have drawn fire in recent years.

 

But rather than add fuel to the fire, Tebow sent out a stream of tweets this morning, stepping politely away from Jeffress and canceling the appearance without refuting any of his controversial positions.

 

“While I was looking forward to sharing a message of hope and Christ’s unconditional love with the faithful members of the historic First Baptist Church of Dallas in April, due to new information that has been brought to my attention, I have decided to cancel my upcoming appearance. I will continue to use the platform God has blessed me with to bring Faith, Hope and Love to all those needing a brighter day. Thank you for all of your love and support. God Bless!”

 

One of Tebow’s greatest gifts, greater than his football ability, is his way of making a point without making people uncomfortable. And in this instance, he recognized the rush and took the sack, rather than risking a turnover that could have sullied a pristine image.

 

Source: ProFootballTalk

[Thanatos 2,847]

Good move on his part.

[oochymp 2,393]

this still looks bad for him IMO because either (1) he actually agrees with the guy and he's only backing down because of the public outcry or (2) he isn't looking into the organizations he's willing to speak for

[blotsfan 2,112]

And somehow I don't think it's the second one. It's a shame. I really thought he was a nice guy.

[Thanatos 2,847]

It was a church. He could easily have just agreed to preach there because someone asked him to. I think you guys are being a little hard on him here.

[Favre4Ever+ 4,476]

It was a church. He could easily have just agreed to preach there because someone asked him to. I think you guys are being a little hard on him here.

 

So you lean more towards Oochy's option 2... Ignorance. Probably better than A, I suppose.

[blotsfan 2,112]

It was a church. He could easily have just agreed to preach there because someone asked him to. I think you guys are being a little hard on him here.

You don't think there are 1000 churches in the country that would want Tebow to preach there?

[oochymp 2,393]

It was a church. He could easily have just agreed to preach there because someone asked him to. I think you guys are being a little hard on him here.

Entirely possible, as F4E said, that's my option 2, but you've gotta be pretty damn naive to not realize that there are churches out there with pretty extreme views. So as a public figure like Tebow you have to know to look into that knowing that you're not going to be able to speak anywhere quietly (like Tebow would have any interest in that anyway) and that speaking at any church is going to be viewed as an endorsement of that church's particular views. None of the information about this church is actually 'new' most of it comes from interviews from two years ago, so it's not like he couldn't have figured out that this is a gay bashing church that's vocally intolerant of other faiths (unfortunately, neither of which is uncommon among Christian churches) so as I said before, either he agrees with that (which he's fully within his rights to) or he didn't bother to look into it.

 

Seriously, in under ten minutes of searching online I found their website where they explain a belief that marriage is between one man and one woman (again, not uncommon and if he thinks that, fine I hold no judgement) and a search of the pastor's name quickly brought up with a 2011 interview where he talked about Mormonism being a cult, and in both of those searches I didn't look at any of the articles about Tebow speaking there, these were completely separate articles (one from their actual website) Certainly neither of those comments is really awful, but they're also not good and are obviously going to bring some ire from a lot of people and certainly raise a red flag to look into their beliefs a little more.

Edited February 22, 2013 by oochymp

[Thanatos 2,847]

See, I don't agree with that oochymp. It may be viewed as such, but I'm a member of a church that I don't agree with their views on a few things. Admittedly, nothing like what Jeffress said, but a church isn't like an organization. Speaking at one does not imply you endorse their views, IMO.

 

Oh yes, also this:

Two people in Tebow's camp confirmed Thursday that the quarterback's reps scheduled the public appearance at the First Baptist Church of Dallas without checking on the pastor's background.

Edited February 22, 2013 by Thanatos19

[blotsfan 2,112]

Because Tebow's pr people have no reason to lie to make him look good.

[oochymp 2,393]

See, I don't agree with that oochymp. It may be viewed as such, but I'm a member of a church that I don't agree with their views on a few things. Admittedly, nothing like what Jeffress said, but a church isn't like an organization. Speaking at one does not imply you endorse their views, IMO.

there's a difference between attending a church and speaking at a church, being a member of a church is much more about the relationships you have in that church, all of the people you know there, the community involved, speaking at a church is a way of using that church as a platform and accepting that church as your audience, which implies a much deeper identification with all that the church stands for, unlike active members, you don't have enough experience with the church to have the approach of "well, the church and I may disagree about X, Y, and Z, but it's still a good church with a lot of good people" which I suspect is largely your approach (and the approach of most church-goers) but you can say that because you go every week, you interact with the people there on at least a weekly basis, you actually know the people there, which allows you to look past some of the faults, you don't get the same benefit of the doubt when you show up as a guest speaker

 

also, this isn't a mainstream church or pastor we're talking about where the biggest disagreement is when you should be baptized, we're talking about a guy who has said other religions (Mormonism and Islam) are from the pit of hell, who has said that a Christian denomination (Catholicism) is Satanic, who has said that gays lead a miserable lifestyle and that gay rights will result in the "inevitable implosion of our country," who has said a "neutrality [toward religion] is really hostility toward religion," who has said that the current President is bringing in the reign of the Antichrist, these aren't comments that you can distance yourself from if you're going to speak to this congregation, and again, this didn't take much of a search to come up with

 

as blots pointed out, it's not like Tebow wouldn't have his choice of churches at which to speak, he could very easily find a moderate church that would be more than happy to allow him an opportunity to speak

 

and I don't care if Tebow's pr people take the blame (isn't it their job to make him look good anyway?) I still put it squarely on Tebow, he's the one that was going to speak, he needs to be making sure his people know what they're doing

Edited February 22, 2013 by oochymp

[Thanatos 2,847]

He probably should have, yeah. At the same time, he speaks at a ton of places, and has no reason not to trust his PR guys as apparently they haven't let him down before. He's also, what, 24? 25? I just feel like far too many people jump on him for something which we would shrug off were it a different person.

 

When arrest records and incidents with cops for NFL players are a mile long, if the worst thing he does is fail to research a place properly were he was going to speak, that's pretty damn tame.

Edited February 22, 2013 by Thanatos19

[Maverick 791]

He probably should have, yeah. At the same time, he speaks at a ton of places, and has no reason not to trust his PR guys as apparently they haven't let him down before. He's also, what, 24? 25? I just feel like far too many people jump on him for something which we would shrug off were it a different person.

 

When arrest records and incidents with cops for NFL players are a mile long, if the worst thing he does is fail to research a place properly were he was going to speak, that's pretty damn tame.

 

Exactly. That's what cracks me up.

 

If that's not the epitome of that saying "haters gonna hate", I don't know what is...

[oochymp 2,393]

He probably should have, yeah. At the same time, he speaks at a ton of places, and has no reason not to trust his PR guys as apparently they haven't let him down before. He's also, what, 24? 25? I just feel like far too many people jump on him for something which we would shrug off were it a different person.

 

When arrest records and incidents with cops for NFL players are a mile long, if the worst thing he does is fail to research a place properly were he was going to speak, that's pretty damn tame.

that's very true, but at the same time I reiterate:

 

this isn't a mainstream church or pastor we're talking about where the biggest disagreement is when you should be baptized, we're talking about a guy who has said other religions (Mormonism and Islam) are from the pit of hell, who has said that a Christian denomination (Catholicism) is Satanic, who has said that gays lead a miserable lifestyle and that gay rights will result in the "inevitable implosion of our country," who has said a "neutrality [toward religion] is really hostility toward religion," who has said that the current President is bringing in the reign of the Antichrist, these aren't comments that you can distance yourself from if you're going to speak to this congregation, and again, this didn't take much of a search to come up with

[Thanatos 2,847]

Okay, but in a sense, Jeffress is correct on that first part.

 

That's simply mainstream Christian belief. We do believe that Christianity is the only way to God, if you believe in something else, it ain't gonna get you there. Thus other religions are, in essence, nothing more than a distraction to try to keep people off the true path. (Honestly, I don't understand why any religion would attempt to proselytize if they believe that all roads lead to God.)

 

Catholicism is also not a branch of Christianity. They are two distinct religions. Catholics believe that a person can believe in Jesus and still not make it to heaven, because they think you have to do more than that. That is a critical doctrinal point of Protestants.

 

The next three comments are where he goes off the rails of mainstream belief.

[RazorStar 4,025]

Christianity is the overarching idea from which other denominations are spread. Catholics believe in Christ as a divine entity, so do Protestants, Eastern Orthodoxists, Anglicans, Methodists, whatever. That makes them all christian. They differ on many points otherwise, but that's the baseline for Christianity.

[Thanatos 2,847]

Christianity is the overarching idea from which other denominations are spread. Catholics believe in Christ as a divine entity, so do Protestants, Eastern Orthodoxists, Anglicans, Methodists, whatever. That makes them all christian. They differ on many points otherwise, but that's the baseline for Christianity.

 

That doesn't make them Christian. This definition would also include JW's and Mormons, both of whom are not Christian.

 

If anything, by your definition, that makes Christians Catholic, as it was the Catholic Church as the only church for the longest time.

[RazorStar 4,025]

No no no it doesn't, there were dozens of schisms over time. As long as jesus being a divine entity who died and ressurected is part of your religion, you're christian. That's all there is to it. The differences are formed in stuff like whether you go to heaven or not, whether to take the bible allegorically or literaly, or did Joseph Smith see the word of god in stone plates... or various other things that I haven't put much research in because religion turns me into a Psyduck.

[Thanatos 2,847]

So you, someone who isn't a Christian, gets to define who and what makes up Christianity? Tell a Protestant that a Jehovah's Witness is a Christian and you will get vehement disagreement. A cult that is an off-shoot off a religion is not part of that religion. That's why the Manicheans weren't Christian.

 

There's significantly more to being a Christian than just that you believed Jesus died and was resurrected.

[RazorStar 4,025]

No there isn't. There's more to being a protestant than that. There's more to being a mormon than that. There's more than being a Jehovah's Witness than that, or a baptist, roman catholic, whatever. But there isn't more to being a christian than that. I may not be a christian but I spent my life in catholic school where religious study was a mandatory course. I know enough about these things, to say that isn't a personal opinion, it's a fact.

[oochymp 2,393]

So you, someone who isn't a Christian, gets to define who and what makes up Christianity? Tell a Protestant that a Jehovah's Witness is a Christian and you will get vehement disagreement. A cult that is an off-shoot off a religion is not part of that religion. That's why the Manicheans weren't Christian.

 

There's significantly more to being a Christian than just that you believed Jesus died and was resurrected.

if you need to hear it from a Christian then know that I side with Razor, as long as you believe in the divinity of Christ and the Trinity (which is the biggest difference between Christianity and Jehovah's Witnesses and Mormons) I consider you Christian, I don't care about the details of theology largely because I don't think we're actually capable of discovering a lot of the answers

 

on a side note, does this thread need to be moved to P&R?