Major doom in Egypt

[Favre4Ever+ 4,476]

That's not even the worst of the news, honestly. Nineteen Egyptian Generals have been assigned to govern across Egypt's provinces.

[Guest Phailadelphia]

Yeah it's getting nasty over there and probably only going to get worse.

[OSUViking 505]

Egyptian military is being extremely harsh with their crackdowns. Is a military dictatorship brewing?

[blotsfan 2,112]

I'd say it's already there

[CARDINAL 205]

Even though the military and security forces crackdown on the Morsi supporters protest camp is harsh, it is neccessay for Egypt to move forward, because they are refusing to help solve the potentially very violence political impasse that is currently gripping all of Egypt!

[Jules 98]

I knew there was a reason I had originally put "doom" in the title.

[OSUViking 505]

Even though the military and security forces crackdown on the Morsi supporters protest camp is harsh, it is neccessay for Egypt to move forward, because they are refusing to help solve the potentially very violence political impasse that is currently gripping all of Egypt!

 

itt, Cardinal hates freedom.

[Favre4Ever+ 4,476]

To be fair to Cardinal, the Muslim Brotherhood is a group of spineless pieces of shit who allegedly shot on police first. Now, that does not exactly excuse the sheer amount of force exhibited by the military and or police force (of which 43 are dead, btw).

 

But the Muslim Brotherhood has reigned terror on Egypt for decades now. Ruling (recently and before their true rule) Egypt by terrorizing people, by promoting inequality and hate crimes across the lower social classes of the nation.

 

There is no good and bad here... It's the bad and the worse.

 

While the furthering of the military hold on Egypt is somewhat troubling, I can't feel that bad for people in the Muslim Brotherhood -- who have tortured, raped, and oppressed Egyptians.

 

I know they are VERY VERY different scenarios and backgrounds... But how many of you would cry for somebody taking out a few Westboro Baptist leaders?

[Guest Phailadelphia]

Death toll is in triple digits now. ~275

[Jules 98]

http://www.egyptindependent.com/news/putin-arrange-joint-military-exercises-egypt

 

Russian President Vladimir Putin called for an extraordinary session at the Russian Kremlin to discuss the situation in Egypt and take the necessary steps to put the Russian military facilities "at the Egyptian military's disposal". Putin further announced that Russia will arrange for joint-military exercises with the Egyptian army.

 

Putin's decision came as a response to US President Barak Obama's announcement that the U.S. is calling off joint military exercises with Egypt and threatening with further steps.

[Guest Phailadelphia]

Lots of revealing info in this interview regarding Egypt, military dictatorship, etc.

 

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/wonkblog/wp/2013/08/15/should-the-u-s-cut-off-aid-to-egypt-an-interview-with-marc-lynch/

 

After the Egyptian military cracked down on supporters of ousted president Mohamed Morsi on Wednesday, the country has seen a series of violent clashes that have left at least 638 dead. That, in turn, has led to renewed scrutiny of U.S. policy in the region.

 

A supporter of deposed Egyptian president Mohammed Morsi stands amongst debris. (Ed Giles/Getty Images)

 

On Thursday, President Obama said the violence “needs to stop” and canceled a joint military exercise with the Egyptian government. But he stopped short of saying anything about the $1.5 billion in military and economic aid that the United States gives Egypt each year. Some experts and politicians think Obama should cut this assistance altogether.

 

That includes Marc Lynch, a professor of political science and international affairs at George Washington University. He published a piece in Foreign Policy on Thursday arguing that “it’s time for Washington to cut Egypt loose.” We talked by phone this afternoon.

 

Brad Plumer: Let’s talk about U.S. policy toward Egypt. Ever since the Egyptian military ousted Mohammed Morsi’s government back in July, the Obama administration has reacted fairly cautiously. What are they thinking here?

 

Marc Lynch: When the coup first happened, I think they wanted to wait and see how things were going to develop. The U.S. obviously didn’t want the coup to happen. The entire heart of their strategy — and I do believe they’ve had a strategy this whole time — has been to push Egypt toward a democratic transition, to hold elections, to bring all the political trends inside the system. That meant bringing in the Islamists, the Salafis, the Muslim Brotherhood, the liberals, the youth activists, and channeling everything toward democratic elections.

 

The coup basically destroyed all that. It completely swept aside all the institutions, all the processes that the U.S. had been working to try to support. At the same time, however, there was no real love for Morsi, and there were a lot of people who didn’t trust the Muslim Brotherhood. So there was a real ambivalence on the part of the U.S. They were opposed to a coup, but they weren’t sure they wanted to go to the mat to restore Morsi to power.

 

So I think that’s why the administration didn’t want to call it a coup and didn’t want to cut off aid. They wanted to maintain a position where they’d still have open communication with Gen. [Abdel Fatah] al-Sissi and with the staff to push them back toward elections, to get them to refrain from violence against the Muslim Brotherhood, and to get the country back to where it was before [the ouster].

 

At that time, I wasn’t calling for cutting off aid, because I saw what the administration was doing and it made sense. They were still able to talk to the Brotherhood, they were still able to talk to the Egyptian military. [Defense Secretary Chuck] Hagel was on the phone with Gen. Sissi a number of times. [Deputy Secretary of State] Bill Burns was there for almost a week. They were trying to get everyone to come together.

 

BP: So how did yesterday’s violence changed things?

 

ML: With the slaughter yesterday, that’s all come to an end. I know that Obama hedged and didn’t say anything concrete about what’s going to happen in his press conference today. And I’m sure the administration will keep saying the same things about restraint and a return to the political process. But it looks to me like it’s done. They can’t just ignore over 500 people dead. Or that Egypt’s security forces have been involved in the slaughter. This is all contrary to our own declared red lines.

 

BP: What do you mean “it’s done”?

 

ML: Obviously Egypt’s not going to disappear. It’s an important country, and we still have interests there. But our entire policy so far has been based on maintaining lines of communication to push Egypt back to a democratic transition. That’s not working.

 

BP: In Foreign Policy today, you called on the administration to cut off the $1.5 billion aid we send to Egypt. What would that actually accomplish at this point?

 

ML: The question of aid to the Egyptian military has become this totem that everyone is always talking about. And I’ve been critical of calls to cut off aid in the past, because it’s a blunt instrument. You have to save it for a really big occasion.

 

The aid itself is not necessarily that significant in material terms. A lot of the actual money ends up going back to U.S. companies. It’s as much a subsidy for U.S. manufacturing as a subsidy for the Egyptian military. And the Gulf states have also made clear that they’ll cover any losses if the U.S. pulls back.

 

So it’s really symbolic more than anything. But it’s a powerful symbol. And you can see that the administration is still waffling. I’m not a believer in the idea that we absolutely have to take clear stands all the time, but this is one of those times when we have to. It’s not even just the 500 dead. The Egyptian military did what we explicitly told them not to do. How can we still pretend that this aid is giving us influence?

 

BP: But in practical terms, is there any reason to think the U.S. withdrawing aid would affect what’s going on in Egypt now?

 

ML: These guys are fighting to the death right now. For the Egyptian military and for the Muslim Brotherhood, this is an existential battle. So for the military, keeping Washington happy is nice, but they’re willing to pay any cost that we can realistically impose.

 

BP: What are the potential downsides to cutting off aid to Egypt?

 

ML: Aside from pissing off people in congressional districts with defense contracts and factories? On the strategic side, once you do this, you’ve played that card, and the Egyptian government doesn’t have to take your phone calls anymore. It becomes a real diplomatic crisis.

 

On top of that, the United Arab Emirates and Saudi Arabia and maybe Kuwait would be stepping in to cover the bills. So we’d be doing this at odds with some of our closest allies in the region.

 

On top of all that, a lot of people might add that withdrawing aid might compromise Camp David [the peace accords between Egypt and Israel]. I’m not sure about that. The Egyptians keep peace with Israel because it’s in their interests to do so. And the main backers of the coup — the Saudis, the Emiratis, the Kuwaitis — they have pretty good relations with Israel. So there wouldn’t be foreign backers who are egging on a more confrontational stance.

 

So the real cost is that the military is the one main player in Egypt that will still talk to us. And we’d lose that. It cuts off one of our most important alliances in region, and that’s not a small thing.

 

BP: Is it possible to envision how the current crisis in Egypt might get resolved at this point?

 

ML: Honestly, I think things are going to get a lot worse, not better. The military’s rationale for moving in on the protester camps was that this was a festering wound, we just need to clear it out, do a surgical operation, end this, and move on. I think it’s clear that this is not what’s happening. The streets are incredibly polarized right now, and I think it’ll be extremely difficult to calm things down and get people back on the table.

 

For the past few years I’ve been one of the more optimistic people that Egypt would work things out. It just seems like there were enough state institutions, enough political consensus, enough of a robust civil society to keep things going.

 

Now I’m not so sure. I think what we’ve got now is a fairly transparent attempt by the military at Mubarak’s restoration, except without Mubarak. I’ve called it “High Mubarakism.” You’ve got a state of emergency, lots of anti-American propaganda. Sissi is a bit more popular, but I don’t think it will work. Mubarak failed for a reason.

 

BP: And at this point there’s not much the U.S. can do but watch?

 

ML: The problem is pretty much everyone is hostile to us at this point. The U.S. tried to take the stance of not supporting a particular group. But the more polarized Egypt got, the more everyone thought we were against them. All the liberals thought we were on the Brotherhood’s side. All the Brotherhood thought we were on the liberals side. So now you’ve got antipathy from every player in Egypt. And it’s being fed by a really malicious and malevolent anti-American propaganda campaign in the state media and in the pro-coup independent media. That just creates a really toxic atmosphere.

 

So America’s ability to do things like being evenhanded broker or try to mediate the conflict is just infinitely harder in that kind of situation.

 

Further reading:

 

–The U.S. gives Egypt $1.5 billion per year in aid. Here’s what it does.

 

–Over at World Views, Max Fisher lays out the cases for and against cutting U.S. aid to Egypt.

[OSUViking 505]

To be fair to Cardinal, the Muslim Brotherhood is a group of spineless pieces of shit who allegedly shot on police first. Now, that does not exactly excuse the sheer amount of force exhibited by the military and or police force (of which 43 are dead, btw).

 

I think that justifies ostracizing them from the political scene, but I would never advocate people gunning down people like the MB or WBC. If I did, I would really be no better than them. It's kind of like that "God Bless America!" movie. The premise of the movie is that a middle-aged man and a teenage girl go on a rampage killing off those who they think are ruining the country. This includes bratty pop idols, reality TV shows, talent show hosts, political commentators similar to Rush Limbaugh, and WBC members. The irony behind the film is that the people who are rooting on the killings deep down in their heart are just as bad as the victims in the movie.

 

Anyway, the MB is horrible and should never hold power. They should respond accordingly to violence, but it looks as if they are trying to massacre them.

[Jules 98]

To be fair to Cardinal, the Muslim Brotherhood is a group of spineless pieces of shit who allegedly shot on police first. Now, that does not exactly excuse the sheer amount of force exhibited by the military and or police force (of which 43 are dead, btw).

 

But the Muslim Brotherhood has reigned terror on Egypt for decades now. Ruling (recently and before their true rule) Egypt by terrorizing people, by promoting inequality and hate crimes across the lower social classes of the nation.

 

There is no good and bad here... It's the bad and the worse.

 

While the furthering of the military hold on Egypt is somewhat troubling, I can't feel that bad for people in the Muslim Brotherhood -- who have tortured, raped, and oppressed Egyptians.

 

I know they are VERY VERY different scenarios and backgrounds... But how many of you would cry for somebody taking out a few Westboro Baptist leaders?

 

 

I actually agree with you. The Muslim bros are pieces of evil garbage.

 

In fact I don't care if I am not politically correct in saying this but the entire Muslim world is completely evil and I would not mind if a single one of them was never allowed in the United States again.

 

Of course this won't happen though...not in todays USA and with how we have to be so "nice" to everyone.

 

Well after the next terrorist attack see who did it and get back to me.

[Favre4Ever+ 4,476]

I think that justifies ostracizing them from the political scene, but I would never advocate people gunning down people like the MB or WBC. If I did, I would really be no better than them. It's kind of like that "God Bless America!" movie. The premise of the movie is that a middle-aged man and a teenage girl go on a rampage killing off those who they think are ruining the country. This includes bratty pop idols, reality TV shows, talent show hosts, political commentators similar to Rush Limbaugh, and WBC members. The irony behind the film is that the people who are rooting on the killings deep down in their heart are just as bad as the victims in the movie.

 

Anyway, the MB is horrible and should never hold power. They should respond accordingly to violence, but it looks as if they are trying to massacre them.

 

 

Like I said, I am not trying to justify slaughtering people... And while I am sure there are innocents mixed in, and that is incredibly unfortunate. Muslim Brotherhood members being taken off the Earth doesn't move me to an uproar.

 

As far as the potential innocents, how awful, absolutely. But it's also hard to feel bad... Not because it isn't awful. But because we, the US, does it everyday in countless nations around the world. I've almost become desensitized to it the violence. Nobody (well, very few) want to talk about the countless innocent lives we take in our efforts to pull resources from every corner of the planet...

Edited August 16, 2013 by Favre4Ever

[Jules 98]

I had a Muslim friend in college who I really liked. Before 9/11 we got along. After 9/11 it was like she became hardcore in her faith again and started to give me attitude. I didn't get it, I was a bit hurt by it too.

 

To this day I have had issues with that whole experience.

 

 

Like she even told me out loud after 9/11 that Americans are sinners and what happens to us we deserve. I said even me? She said I had a lot of work to do to save my soul.

 

I told her to fuck off.

 

Anyway that's my experience and I say fuck them at times.

[Guest Phailadelphia]

Holy shit.

 

http://mobile.reuters.com/article/idUSBRE97E0ML20130815?irpc=932

[Jules 98]

All we are saying.....is give peace a chance!!!!

[BUCK3Y3 44]

My strategy in the middle east consists of giving everyone small arms (not rockets,missles,tanks or jets) and leaving. Let them kill each other like the uncivilized beasts they are. Then come back when everyone is dead to split the land and resources amongst the inevitably more peaceful societies of the world. I think Islam is a plague on mankind. It has been since its inception and will continue to be. Don't believe me move to the middle east and be a Christian. I'm not advocating Christianity or any religion just making a point. You will be persecuted for your beliefs. You will live in constant fear of your life and in some countries you will be killed. The special interest groups in America like to whine and cry here where they actually have freedom to be and do as they please but in Islamic nations there is no whining and crying. You conform or you are removed from society permanently. The people attempting to market Islam as a religion of peace are doing the world a great disservice. The current administration has been funding the Muslim brotherhood. An organization with very radical ties. Same with the rebels in Syria. There is no good guy in the middle east. Sure the youngest of children are innocent but that's because they cant fully comprehend the Bullshit they are being taught yet. Islam is a plague and humanity would be exponentially better off without it. I'm not a fan of any religion. Back in the day Christianity itself was quite brutal. The difference is Christianity has evolved to a degree yet Islam hasn't evolved past its barbaric roots. Catholicism is right behind Islam for religions that need purged from this planet.

Edited August 18, 2013 by ManBearPig

[Bucman 891]

Most of the middle east has been at war since the beginning of time giving them weapons now will do nothing to help. Just leave them alone and let them continue to kill each other.

[BUCK3Y3 44]

I want to give them weapons to expedite the process. Like I said.

[blotsfan 2,112]

Back in the Middle Ages, the Islamic countries were much more progressive and advanced than the Christian ones.

[BUCK3Y3 44]

Back in the Middle Ages, the Islamic countries were much more progressive and advanced than the Christian ones.

 

Where did you pull this nugget of wisdom from?

[blotsfan 2,112]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Science_in_medieval_Islam

 

Scientists within the Islamic civilization were of diverse ethnicities. Most were Persians Arabs, Moors, Assyrians, and Egyptians. They were also from diverse religious backgrounds. Most were Muslims, but there were also some Christians, Jews and irreligious

 

So basically, they made scientific advances and allowed people of multiple religions, while still being Muslim.

[BUCK3Y3 44]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Science_in_medieval_Islam

 

 

 

So basically, they made scientific advances and allowed people of multiple religions, while still being Muslim.

 

I don't know if I would lean to much on Wikepedia. You got another source for that?

[blotsfan 2,112]

The wikipedia article is well-sourced.