Midseason MVP Candidates?

[seanbrock 1,684]

Tom Brady has the same argument as Ben though in that his last 2 weeks don't reflect what he's on pace for. Brady has had some shitty games and I know because I own him in one of my fantasy teams. He does have a better record, but he doesn't have the fucktard HC that Ben has to carry in Pittsburgh.

[oochymp 2,393]

Tom Brady has the same argument as Ben though in that his last 2 weeks don't reflect what he's on pace for. Brady has had some shitty games and I know because I own him in one of my fantasy teams. He does have a better record, but he doesn't have the fucktard HC that Ben has to carry in Pittsburgh.

shitty fantasy day doesn't mean shitty overall day, by real football measures he's only had one really bad game so far this season and that was at Kansas City, a notoriously difficult venue, and one other that could be categorized below mediocre, week 1 against Miami, and other than the td numbers, which are admittedly very important, his stats in the last two weeks aren't that far off from what he's done earlier in the season

 

Brady also gets much more of a benefit of the doubt from me than Roethlisberger for two reasons: past performance and supporting cast, and the second reason is much stronger, Roethlisberger's last two weeks are significant outliers not only on the season but in his career, his last two games both rank in his top twenty in his career in yardage (significant for a guy who's been in the league for a decade) and he'd only thrown five TDs twice prior to last week, as for supporting cast I don't think it takes much explanation beyond saying that Roethlisberger has a much better supporting cast than Brady does this year

[DBR96A 87]

shitty fantasy day doesn't mean shitty overall day, by real football measures he's only had one really bad game so far this season and that was at Kansas City, a notoriously difficult venue, and one other that could be categorized below mediocre, week 1 against Miami, and other than the td numbers, which are admittedly very important, his stats in the last two weeks aren't that far off from what he's done earlier in the season

 

Brady also gets much more of a benefit of the doubt from me than Roethlisberger for two reasons: past performance and supporting cast, and the second reason is much stronger, Roethlisberger's last two weeks are significant outliers not only on the season but in his career, his last two games both rank in his top twenty in his career in yardage (significant for a guy who's been in the league for a decade) and he'd only thrown five TDs twice prior to last week, as for supporting cast I don't think it takes much explanation beyond saying that Roethlisberger has a much better supporting cast than Brady does this year

 

For the first time since 2006, Ben Roethlisberger actually does have more help on offense than Tom Brady does.

 

Of course, Brady now has a better defense than Roethlisberger does.

[seanbrock 1,684]

Brady's stats looked pretty pedestrian playing behind a horrible offensive line last year and pretty bad before they got it figured out this year. Ben has dealt with that his entire career. Ever since Cowher left it's like the football God's have decided that Ben can go fuck himself. At least there were enough remnants of Cowher's team for Ben to win another Super Bowl though lol.

[oochymp 2,393]

 

For the first time since 2006, Ben Roethlisberger actually does have more help on offense than Tom Brady does.

 

Of course, Brady now has a better defense than Roethlisberger does.

because Hines Ward, Heath Miller, Mike Wallace, Santonio Holmes, and Emmanuel Sanders are all crap, right? hell, even Nate Washington was better when he played for the Steelers than any WRs Brady has thrown to not named Randy Moss or Wes Welker

 

I'll grant the point about the olines, Brady has clearly always had a better oline, but to say Big Ben has never had any help on offense is laughable

Edited November 3, 2014 by oochymp

[Zack_of_Steel+ 3,014]

because Hines Ward, Heath Miller, Mike Wallace, Santonio Holmes, and Emmanuel Sanders are all crap, right? hell, even Nate Washington was better when he played for the Steelers than any WRs Brady has thrown to not named Randy Moss or Wes Welker

 

I'll grant the point about the olines, Brady has clearly always had a better oline, but to say Big Ben has never had any help on offense is laughable

Nate Washington was absolute shit with the Steelers and was in no way better than Julain Edelman, at least. And it's convenient that you omit Gronkowski and Hernandez, lol.

 

 

Players mean shit when you have no protection. They mean even less when you have an atrocious head coach and, from 2007-2011, a buffoon OC. Brady has had protection, one of the greatest HCs of all time, and wonderful OCs and offensive assistants/consultants for his entire career.

 

Until now, Ben has played on a team that's done nothing but throw him out there with a few weapons and say, "good luck, go win us a game". Now he's got better protection and an OC that has him throwing quick passes rather than 5-7 step drops from 5-wide like Arians. Meanwhile, Brady and Peyton have been catered to their entire careers.

Edited November 4, 2014 by Zack_of_Steel

[BwareDWare94 723]

 

Ben has been spreading the ball around like crazy during this tear he's on.

 

I know but Brown's been good all year.

[Sarge+ 3,436]

A receiver isn't gonna win MVP tho.

[BwareDWare94 723]

Probably not, but hopefully Brown is considered.

[oochymp 2,393]

Nate Washington was absolute shit with the Steelers and was in no way better than Julain Edelman, at least. And it's convenient that you omit Gronkowski and Hernandez, lol.

 

 

Players mean shit when you have no protection. They mean even less when you have an atrocious head coach and, from 2007-2011, a buffoon OC. Brady has had protection, one of the greatest HCs of all time, and wonderful OCs and offensive assistants/consultants for his entire career.

 

Until now, Ben has played on a team that's done nothing but throw him out there with a few weapons and say, "good luck, go win us a game". Now he's got better protection and an OC that has him throwing quick passes rather than 5-7 step drops from 5-wide like Arians. Meanwhile, Brady and Peyton have been catered to their entire careers.

what exactly has Edelman done to engender any confidence? in his six year career this is only the second time he's broken even 500 yards in a season, the guy would be awful without Brady throwing to him, as for Washington, perhaps I was being generous and taking into account his time in Tennessee, which is admittedly far better than he was in Pittsburgh, so it's probably a lot closer between Edelman and Pittsburgh Nate Washington, but I htink you also have to keep in mind that Washington was never higher than the third WR in Pittsburgh and you're comparing him to the guy who's been Brady's top WR for the last two years, and I notice you conveniently ignored the other five players I mentioned

 

for the TEs, you're right, I left out Hernandez and Gronkowski, and it's definitely disingenuous to talk about Brady's weapons without talking about two of the top four (adding in Moss and Welker you've got the clear top four pass catchers Brady has had, and I don't think that's really debateable) but I will say that I really only meant to exclude them from the comparison to Washington, sorry if that wasn't clear

 

that said, to address those two, Hernandez was only there for three years and really wasn't amazing for those three years, he definitely appeared to be on his way to being an unstoppable force but his other activities cut his NFL career short before we really saw what he was capable of, I think it's easy to lose track of his actual play based on the projection of what he was looking to become, as for Gronk, he's clearly one of the best in the game when he's on the field, and his impact on the recent play of the offense shouldn't be overlooked, but he's also missed a lot of games from injury and Brady has still looked pretty good without him this year, again he may not have put up the arcade numbers we expect of QBs early in the season, but he also wasn't putting up awful numbers and was doing what he needed to to get wins

[DBR96A 87]

because Hines Ward, Heath Miller, Mike Wallace, Santonio Holmes, and Emmanuel Sanders are all crap, right? hell, even Nate Washington was better when he played for the Steelers than any WRs Brady has thrown to not named Randy Moss or Wes Welker

 

I'll grant the point about the olines, Brady has clearly always had a better oline, but to say Big Ben has never had any help on offense is laughable

 

Hines Ward was exiting his prime as Roethlisberger was entering his. Santonio Holmes and Mike Wallace have done nothing in this league without Roethlisberger throwing them the ball. Emmanuel Sanders was underwhelming, and while he's playing better with Peyton Manning, Roethlisberger is playing better without him. Quite frankly, there's been no position on the Steelers more overrated in the last 10 years than WR.

 

As for Heath Miller, he was underutilized in the passing game when Bruce Arians was the offensive coordinator, which is why he promptly set new career highs for receiving yards and TD catches in 2012, right after Arians was shown the door. And I don't even need to get into the offensive line or RBs, which were shitty overall between 2008 and 2012, except for Maurkice Pouncey.

 

People go on ad nauseum about the defenses Roethlisberger had during those years, but his supporting cast on offense was decidedly below average. His WRs were decent, but his offensive line was mostly trash, and his RBs were even worse. Only recently has he even come close to getting the same level of offensive support as any of the other top-tier QBs in the NFL, and he's been lighting up the scoreboard. Funny how that works.

[oochymp 2,393]

who have Holmes and Wallace had throwing to them other than Roethlisberger? Sanchez? Geno? Tannehill? is that really who you want to compare Roethlisberger to?

 

and keep in mind the guys you're comparing them to, are you really saying you wouldn't take Holmes, Ward, and Wallace over the guys Brady has had for most of his career?

 

and all of this discussion of supporting casts is getting away from my main point, which is that the last two games for Roethlisberger have been an anomaly given his prior work while Brady's resurgence seems to have shown that last year was the anomaly, certainly if Roethlisberger continues anywhere near the pace of the last two games (and nobody can expect the full pace of the last two weeks to continue for too much longer) he'll be in the discussion, but there's a good amount of doubt on both QBs maintaining their current pace, I'm just willing to give Brady more of a benefit of the doubt, and don't get me wrong, I'm not saying Roethlisberger is a bad QB by any stretch, in fact I'd say the opposite, he just has never been much of a numbers guy so I'm less likely to trust him to continue the two week explosion he's in the middle of

[DBR96A 87]

who have Holmes and Wallace had throwing to them other than Roethlisberger? Sanchez? Geno? Tannehill? is that really who you want to compare Roethlisberger to?

 

and keep in mind the guys you're comparing them to, are you really saying you wouldn't take Holmes, Ward, and Wallace over the guys Brady has had for most of his career?

 

and all of this discussion of supporting casts is getting away from my main point, which is that the last two games for Roethlisberger have been an anomaly given his prior work while Brady's resurgence seems to have shown that last year was the anomaly, certainly if Roethlisberger continues anywhere near the pace of the last two games (and nobody can expect the full pace of the last two weeks to continue for too much longer) he'll be in the discussion, but there's a good amount of doubt on both QBs maintaining their current pace, I'm just willing to give Brady more of a benefit of the doubt, and don't get me wrong, I'm not saying Roethlisberger is a bad QB by any stretch, in fact I'd say the opposite, he just has never been much of a numbers guy so I'm less likely to trust him to continue the two week explosion he's in the middle of

 

My point about Santonio Holmes and Mike Wallace is, their decline without Roethlisberger is proof that Roethlisberger made them better, instead of them making Roethlisberger better like some football fans (not necessarily here) have insisted. Throughout the years, I've heard people say that Roethlisberger would miss his departing WRs, but history suggests otherwise.

 

After Plaxico Burress left, Roethlisberger was excellent in 2005, especially in the post-season, and was the main reason the Steelers made it to Super Bowl XL. (His performance in the conference bracket that post-season is why I give him a mulligan for the Super Bowl itself.) After Santonio Holmes left, Roethlisberger made stars out of Mike Wallace and Antonio Brown, a raw second-year WR and a rookie, respectively, in 2010. The Steelers made it to Super Bowl XLV that post-season. After Mike Wallace left, Roethlisberger started feeding Antonio Brown and rejuvenated Jerricho Cotchery last season. Basically, Roethlisberger's proven to be adaptable, and also to elevate his WRs.

 

As for the WRs and TEs Tom Brady has thrown to, he had Randy Moss for four seasons, who is better than any WR Roethlisberger's ever thrown to, and he had Wes Welker for six seasons, who's a 2X First-Team All-Pro WR himself. And after Randy Moss left, the Patriots started focusing on Rob Gronkowski, who, when healthy, is a nightmare matchup for any defense. And the comparison between the offensive lines is a non-starter; Brady had nine Pro Bowlers and two First-Team All-Pros on his offensive line betwee 2007 and 2012, versus four and one, respectively, for Roethlisberger. (And the one First-Team All-Pro was gone in 2008.)

 

An excellent defense will help improve a QB's chances of winning games, but an excellent supporting cast on offense will help a QB appear more refined and competent. Brady easily had better weapons than Roethlisberger between 2007 and 2012, and that differential in talent around each QB is probably why we're so much more used to Brady breaking records than Roethliseberger, and why we give Brady the benefit of the doubt, but can't wrap our heads around Roethlisberger suddenly playing at a comparable level.

 

All Roethlisberger ever needed was what every other top-tier QB has had: a versatile system of offense with decent pass protection and more than one reliable weapon in the passing game. He has all three of those things now, so it's no surprise to me that he's elevated his game. In fact, here's his cumulative stat line since the Steelers' 0-4 start last season:

 

 

503/760, 5,750 yards, 45 TD, 12 INT

66.1% completion

273.8 yards per game

7.6 yards per attempt

5.9% TD

1.6% INT

3.75 TD/INT ratio

101.9 rating

That's excellent, and it appears to be the "new normal" since this has occurred over the span of 21 games. The Steelers are 14-7 in those games, and that's despite the defense unraveling. Roethlisberger is not only proving himself capable of carrying a team, but he's beginning to break records here and there, now that the young talent around him has gotten some more experience. I don't expect him to throw six TD passes every game, but even if he only throws two or three per game, that ought to be enough to get him close to 40 TD passes. Ben Roethlisberger and his offense have come a long way in the last five years.

[Cherry 1,302]

[oochymp 2,393]

I think ya'll are mistaking my "Brady is better than Roethlisberger" argument for a "Roethlisberger sucks" argument, and that may be my fault for lack of clarity, the point I'm trying to get at is that Brady's recent resurgence has been in line with his past production, so it's easier to project it to continue, conversely Roethlisberger's recent statistical explosion is an outlier when you look at his career so it's harder to project out, there are certainly a lot of variables in play, Roethlisberger is clearly playing with the best oline he's ever had (you're welcome for Munchak) and I'll take ya'll's word on the offensive system changes since you clearly are more in touch with what's going on in Pittsburgh, but regardless of what you're looking at projections are extremely difficult

 

as I said in my last post, if Roethlisberger continues anywhere near his production over the last two weeks then he'll definitely a frontrunner for MVP, and if Brady continues on his current trajectory he'll definitely be a frontrunner for MVP, and if you asked me right now which is more likely I'd say Brady based largely on past performance

[DonovanMcnabb for H.O.F 2,241]

I'd give it to Big Ben honestly, or at least based off the past couple weeks.

[Zack_of_Steel+ 3,014]

I think ya'll are mistaking my "Brady is better than Roethlisberger" argument for a "Roethlisberger sucks" argument, and that may be my fault for lack of clarity, the point I'm trying to get at is that Brady's recent resurgence has been in line with his past production, so it's easier to project it to continue, conversely Roethlisberger's recent statistical explosion is an outlier when you look at his career so it's harder to project out, there are certainly a lot of variables in play, Roethlisberger is clearly playing with the best oline he's ever had (you're welcome for Munchak) and I'll take ya'll's word on the offensive system changes since you clearly are more in touch with what's going on in Pittsburgh, but regardless of what you're looking at projections are extremely difficult

 

as I said in my last post, if Roethlisberger continues anywhere near his production over the last two weeks then he'll definitely a frontrunner for MVP, and if Brady continues on his current trajectory he'll definitely be a frontrunner for MVP, and if you asked me right now which is more likely I'd say Brady based largely on past performance

I understand what you're saying, but I feel that labeling his past two games as "anomalies" is incorrect, which is what DBR and I are getting at.

 

I also feel that too often do people get caught up with the players and statistics while failing to see the less-tangible effect of the coaches and the system the players are chained to. I, and many others here, have said for years that if Ben were to trade places with Brady or Manning, Ben would flourish and Brady/Manning would flounder.

 

To us, this outcome was expected and we felt that the early-season struggles were us underperforming. I do understand your points, however.

[.AirMcNair. 1,232]

Claiming Manning and Brady would struggle with the Steelers(with any one of their supporting casts, past or present) is simply incorrect. Both Manning and Brady have played well with equal/in some cases weaker supporting casts than what Ben has now, in the past. Brady last year and this year is performing at levels equal to or superior than Ben with a worse supporting cast. Peyton in his last few years as a Colt and his first year as a Bronco has the same argument.

 

Let's not take this Ben love to too high of an extreme here. He's not on the same level as Peyton or Brady. He's a great QB who will be in the HoF, but very few QBs in history have ever been on Peyton and Brady's level, and Ben is not one of them.

 

Lets not forget just a couple weeks ago Ben was struggling with the likes of Jacksonville and Cleveland. Two incredible games that make him look to be the same caliber of QB as Brady and Manning do not make him Brady and Manning level. Nick Foles is coming off a season where he put up numbers arguably better than anything Brady or Manning have accomplished and we see what he's doing now. Obviously, Ben is leagues better than Foles, I'm simply using that as an example that a couple games, or even a seasons worth of top 5 all-time play does not make one a top 5 all-time QB.

 

Consistently doing it like Manning and Brady have is what makes you a top 5 all-time QB.

[Zack_of_Steel+ 3,014]

Claiming Manning and Brady would struggle with the Steelers(with any one of their supporting casts, past or present) is simply incorrect. Both Manning and Brady have played well with equal/in some cases weaker supporting casts than what Ben has now, in the past. Brady last year and this year is performing at levels equal to or superior than Ben with a worse supporting cast. Peyton in his last few years as a Colt and his first year as a Bronco has the same argument.

 

Let's not take this Ben love to too high of an extreme here. He's not on the same level as Peyton or Brady. He's a great QB who will be in the HoF, but very few QBs in history have ever been on Peyton and Brady's level, and Ben is not one of them.

 

Lets not forget just a couple weeks ago Ben was struggling with the likes of Jacksonville and Cleveland. Two incredible games that make him look to be the same caliber of QB as Brady and Manning do not make him Brady and Manning level. Nick Foles is coming off a season where he put up numbers arguably better than anything Brady or Manning have accomplished and we see what he's doing now. Obviously, Ben is leagues better than Foles, I'm simply using that as an example that a couple games, or even a seasons worth of top 5 all-time play does not make one a top 5 all-time QB.

 

Consistently doing it like Manning and Brady have is what makes you a top 5 all-time QB.

 

We've already been through this multiple times, in this very thread. Brady and Manning have NEVER had the shit OL that Ben has endured. Peyton and Brady crumble under consistent pressure and if they'd have spent nearly a decade behind a trash line like Ben, they'd have worse career stats than Ben does. The only reason Ben has been successful is his ability to escape pressure/sacks and take hits. You think Ben's missed a lot of time due to the abuse he's taken? Manning and Brady are both smaller, lol.

 

And, again, Ben's offensive system has been LEAGUES shittier than Peyton and Brady have had through their careers.

[oochymp 2,393]

are you kidding? Manning has always had amazing weapons at his disposal, Marvin Harrison, Reggie Wayne, Pierre Garcon, and Dallas Clark in Indy then give him Demaryius Thomas, Wes Welker, Julius Thomas, Emmanuel Sanders, and Eric Decker (a fantastic option at #3 on the depth chart) in Denver, sure the Colts and Broncos have struggled to give him a defense, but I don't think you could find a QB who's had a better supporting cast on offense than Peyton Manning has had

Edited November 5, 2014 by oochymp

[.AirMcNair. 1,232]

We've already been through this multiple times, in this very thread. Brady and Manning have NEVER had the shit OL that Ben has endured. Peyton and Brady crumble under consistent pressure and if they'd have spent nearly a decade behind a trash line like Ben, they'd have worse career stats than Ben does. The only reason Ben has been successful is his ability to escape pressure/sacks and take hits. You think Ben's missed a lot of time due to the abuse he's taken? Manning and Brady are both smaller, lol.

 

And, again, Ben's offensive system has been LEAGUES shittier than Peyton and Brady have had through their careers.

 

Brady's offensive line was looking like the worst in the league before he adjusted his play. According to both PFF and FO

 

The reason why Brady and Manning have never appeared to have a god awful o-line for a long period of time(though both have) is because they adjust their offense and play style accordingly. When their o-lines are struggling they turn to quick passes, screens, etc in order to hide the weakness. When Ben's o-line struggles he does nothing to adjust his style of play. Is that his fault? I dunno. Maybe his OCs haven't given him the freedom that Brady and Manning have. They're both offensive coordinators on the field.

 

Brady and Manning have always fixed the problems in their respective passing games, including terrible pass blocking, I have no reason at all to expect they wouldn't do the same in Pittsburgh.

[.AirMcNair. 1,232]

are you kidding? Manning has always had amazing weapons at his disposal, Marvin Harrison, Reggie Wayne, Pierre Garcon, and Dallas Clark in Indy then give him Demaryius Thomas, Wes Welker, Julius Thomas, Emmanuel Sanders, and Eric Decker (a fantastic option at #3 on the depth chart) in Denver, sure the Colts and Broncos have struggled to give him a defense, but I don't think you could find a QB who's had a better supporting cast on offense than Peyton Manning has had

 

 

Manning usually has amazing weapons, but factoring in the offensive lines, his supporting cast in his first season in Denver and last couple years in Indy was far from amazing.

[Zack_of_Steel+ 3,014]

Brady's offensive line was looking like the worst in the league before he adjusted his play. According to both PFF and FO

 

The reason why Brady and Manning have never appeared to have a god awful o-line for a long period of time(though both have) is because they adjust their offense and play style accordingly. When their o-lines are struggling they turn to quick passes, screens, etc in order to hide the weakness. When Ben's o-line struggles he does nothing to adjust his style of play. Is that his fault? I dunno. Maybe his OCs haven't given him the freedom that Brady and Manning have. They're both offensive coordinators on the field.

 

Brady and Manning have always fixed the problems in their respective passing games, including terrible pass blocking, I have no reason at all to expect they wouldn't do the same in Pittsburgh.

Then you haven't been watching and aren't qualified to make such decided, unequivocal proclamations. Ben had the worst OL in the league during Bruce Arians's tenure and Bruce's entire offense was a spread, long-developing, deep passing offense, which lead to Ben getting destroyed often. They often passed out of 4 and 5 WR sets, leaving no help for the turnstile OL.

 

Todd Haley has reinvented the offense and Ben is throwing the ball quicker than he ever has before. PFF only starting doing Time to Throw in 2011, but have apparently started work on past years as they have 2007 numbers listed. In 2007 Ben was dead last in time to throw because of the Arians offense. Last year Ben was 7th and this year he is sitting at 5th quickest, currently.

 

As to the "OC on the field" comment, Ben has rarely been allowed to run the no-huddle, something fans have been screaming for for years. The Steelers have consistently been near the top in end-of-half scoring drives because Ben in the no-huddle has been superb through his career. The Steelers finished the last half of 2013 with a top 10 offense due to the increased usage of the no-huddle.

 

Ben Roethlisberger: Steelers to run more no-huddle

 

By Kevin Patra

Around the NFL writer

Published: June 8, 2014 at 12:22 p.m.

Updated: June 8, 2014 at 03:56 p.m.

 

During the Pittsburgh Steelers' 6-3 run to end the 2013 regular season, offensive coordinator Todd Haley relented to quarterback Ben Roethlisberger's desire to run no-huddle.

 

The move ignited the offense and Big Ben played his best when he was allowed to make his own calls from the line.

 

During OTAs last week, Roethlisberger said he expects to be given the reins even more in 2014.

 

"I don't want to call it our base offense, but I think you'll see more of it, so it was more important for us to get it in early and often," Roethlisberger said, per Mark Kaboly of The Pittsburgh Tribune-Review.

 

The Steelers ran about 23 percent of their plays from no-huddle last year, per Kaboly, with at least 15 no-huddle plays in each of the team's final nine games. Pittsburgh averaged more than 10 points more per game during that span.

 

Again, Ben has not been put in the position to succeed in the way that Brady and Manning have been. If Brady or Manning had been handcuffed to the shit OC's gameplan while sitting behind a nothing OL, with a lesser supporting cast and coaching staff (save for the DC), they'd have had worse career statistics than Ben has in Pittsburgh.

Edited November 5, 2014 by Zack_of_Steel
5th, not 6th

[Zack_of_Steel+ 3,014]

Manning usually has amazing weapons, but factoring in the offensive lines, his supporting cast in his first season in Denver and last couple years in Indy was far from amazing.

Factor in OLs and Ben loses every year. Even without them, Peyton's weapons have always been better save for the Collie days. Two HoF receivers, a HoF RB for a bit, another top RB for a bit, Welker, Demaryius, JT, et cetera.

 

 

Plus Dungy >>> Tomlin. Tom Moore >>>>>> Arians.

Edited November 5, 2014 by Zack_of_Steel

[.AirMcNair. 1,232]

Then you haven't been watching and aren't qualified to make such decided, unequivocal proclamations. Ben had the worst OL in the league during Bruce Arians's tenure and Bruce's entire offense was a spread, long-developing, deep passing offense, which lead to Ben getting destroyed often. They often passed out of 4 and 5 WR sets, leaving no help for the turnstile OL.

 

Todd Haley has reinvented the offense and Ben is throwing the ball quicker than he ever has before. PFF only starting doing Time to Throw in 2011, but have apparently started work on past years as they have 2007 numbers listed. In 2007 Ben was dead last in time to throw because of the Arians offense. Last year Ben was 7th and this year he is sitting at 6th quickest, currently.

 

As to the "OC on the field" comment, Ben has rarely been allowed to run the no-huddle, something fans have been screaming for for years. The Steelers have consistently been near the top in end-of-half scoring drives because Ben in the no-huddle has been superb through his career. The Steelers finished the last half of 2013 with a top 10 offense due to the increased usage of the no-huddle.

 

 

 

Again, Ben has not been put in the position to succeed in the way that Brady and Manning have been. If Brady or Manning had been handcuffed to the shit OC's gameplan while sitting behind a nothing OL, with a lesser supporting cast and coaching staff (save for the DC), they'd have had worse career statistics than Ben has in Pittsburgh.

 

 

I have no idea why you even typed the first part of your post. I said nothing about Ben having(or not having) the worst o-line in the league in his career. I simply said that Manning and Brady have dealt with awful offensive lines in their career and have adjusted accordingly, and they would do so in Pittsburgh as well. Brady had arguably the worst offensive line to begin this season and adjusted accordingly.

 

And I dunno of any QBs outside of Brady and Manning that are offensive coordinators on the field. Not sure even Rodgers or Brees can say that. Running the 2 minute drill/no huddle is a bit different. While it still requires the QB calling the plays, it's something you do over and over in practice, with the assistance of coaches. Brady and Manning have the ability to say fuck you to the offensive coordinator's play call and do whatever they want. They've earned that right, I guess.

 

Could Ben be successful at that too? I dunno, maybe. Would have to see him try it first, but I dunno if Haley or Tomlin think highly enough of him to do that. Brady and Manning aren't handcuffed to their OCs cause they earned the right to be their own OCs on the field when they want to be through the work they put in on the practice field, film room and results they produce on a yearly basis on the field. There's arguments that can be made that they're the two greatest QBs to ever play the game. I personally have Brady as the 2nd greatest ever and Manning somewhere around the 5-8 range at the moment.

 

No one, outside of you and a couple other Steeler fans are going to make the argument that Ben is on that level. And you believing that is your right, I guess, just don't think you'll have much luck getting any non-Steeler fan to believe that. I'm maybe the biggest Big Ben fan outside of the Steelers fanbase, as I'm sure several here can back up by how often I speak highly of him, but I'm not going to exaggerate his accomplishments to the point of putting him on an arguably greatest QB of all time level.

 

Anyway, gotta get back to work. I'll respond to any other posts later if need be.

Edited November 5, 2014 by .AirMcNair.